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The second Olympic Cat


berthos

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I wouldn't call what many sailors in many classes do on the weekend as "a bit of a bash on the weekend", ask the sharpie sailors just how competitive their sailing is week in and week out at club level (and they stack up as equal or better to any "international" sailor from OS), likewise the guys sailing international 14's (formally 14' skiffs here), just check the results of any of the last worlds. If we could spent the time many many more examples are readily available. The point of this is that where the club level of competition is high and on going, the need to travel overseas to GET good competition is dramatically reduced and thereby the costs of a succesful campaign to be internationally competitive are also reduced. Don't underestimate the value of regular competition at club level, if it wasn't there, or if it was "just having a bash on the weekend", either there wouldn't be any type of national or international competition, or if there was it would be very much the poorer. If one says that club racing is just a bit of fun, one might also say that individual coaching is not required, what one has to do is just go overseas and sail, that will gain more than being coached with no competition on a local race course? which of course is undoubtably not so.

Darryl J Barrett

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It is not important where some one gets the required level of competition that they need to improve to reach the top level of their chosen sport, what is important is they they MUST get that competition! The shame of it is that for the Tornado's they HAVE to compete extensively overseas, which is why I say that IF there was top competition at club level the need to travel would not be any where near is important, and who knows if such a situation did occur here, then all those lazy stay at home foriegners might have to come out here to sail against the best?

Darryl J Barrett

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You are missing the point, good competition at a local level is great to have, I have mentioned just this in my previous post, however to be competitive at an Olympic level you need to do the overseas regattas. There are experiences gained by competing with those you will be racing against if selected to go to the games. You need to consider that the opportunities to go and race at that level with those guys are actually quite limited. In fact if you work on the basis that the year after a games is a dud year and stay at home, then do the next two seasons, the fourth is a direct lead up to the games, would you be happy sacrificing 4 years of your life to go and sail against guys you have only met a few times before? You need to asses their strenghts and weaknesses and learn from them if you are going to beat them at this level. Sure you could stay at home and beat the pants of the local boys, meanwhile the rest of the world have made developmental leaps and bounds without you.

Results in an international class that is not Olympic are not exactly comparing apples with apples. Maybe all the Int 14 sailors are club sailors that go and race at a regatta called a worlds each year, this hardly compares to the quality of fleet you will get at 15 regattas I could name in an Olympic class.

Before anyone gets too carried away with suggesting a new boat for the Olympics they should seriously assess the costs of doing the campaign for a start and then how their wonder boat will actually effect the costs over the total course of the campaign. I think you will find that the T is hard to beat. Remember that a four year campaign in the T would mean 2 boats for that whole period and they would still be worth more than 65% od their initial value, In a Hobie 16 you would be looking at 2 boats per year in Aust and 2 boats per year in Europe/rest of world, such is the amount of work the boats will do. The resale value on H16's would be more in the 40 - 50% area I would assume.

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The point is - That if the competition level was high enough in your own backyard then we wouldn't be the ones that had to travel overseas as a necessity to get the exposure to the top sailors in the class - it would be the overseas sailors that would have to campaign here to expose themselves to the best competition available, WHICH is where strongh club level competition and strong club sailor numbers comes in. All of which dramatically reduces campaign costs. The main point then of competing overseas is to familiar yourself with the areas and conditions at the likely venues (and to satisfy the YA's requirements for selection criteria). Why do we go and compete overseas if it is not that we feel for some strange reason "those guys" are better than us (a bit of the old cultural crige seems to be creeping in here). Although I agree that the more venues one sails at, and the more that one competes the more likely it is that there will be a marked improvement in performance, BUT, this entrenched idea of "that's the way it is if you want to sail a T at the Olympics" seems to have some fundermental flaws. If it doesn't, and if we aren 't intelegent enough to change a situation that appears to measure your commitment directly to the amount of finance that you are prepared to put into it, then if we continue that line of thought we are not competing on the race course for the right to represent your country at an Olympic venue, we are BIDDING for the right at a chance to BUY a gold medal!

Darryl J Barrett

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Oh and by the way I am not quite sure on what you are baseing your "competitive" life of a Tornado on (and ALL other cats as well) but I haven't, as yet, seen any sailor who wants to be competitive at Olympic level, contest consecetive Olympic games with the same boat, so just what degree do you rate "competitive" at? Similarly to rate the competitive/productive life of a Hobie 16 as you do (and as the apparent representative of all "other" cats) tends to sound more than a little "one class" biased. There are many classes of cats where individual cats have maintained their competiveness for many many years at the top of their class, and by sailing many more races per year than any Tornado does! If you go to any representatives of classes other than Tornadoes I am sure that you would very soon lose the arguement on competative life of a Tornado against boats of their classes!

(although I'm sad to say that in regards to the Hobie 16, I have to agree with you, sorry H16 sailors)

Darryl J Barrett

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Some good points there though I disagree with the thought that a Hobie 16 is so limited in life span, the hulls and rigging are good for as long as any other glass boat however the dacron sails do cop a hiding in heavy racing and will require replacing. But when a set of sails costs only 12.5% of the cost of the boat surely a new set of rags now and then is a reasonable expense.

The last hobie 16 nationals brought a fleet of 70 boats together for some feircely competitive racing with a couple of world champs (from Aus) and a few national champs and plenty of average Joes like me, I'd say your desire for high level club racing in a class would be best delivered with a H16. Just my 2c.

Phil

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During the early 80's I have seen an average of 25 to 30 mosquitos sailing every saturday afternoon at three different clubs (25 to 30 at each club) with fleets of greater than those numbers of paper tigers as well as arrows, sundance 4.3's and sundance 5m with similar numbers, windrush's, hobie 14's, 16's, 18's maricats, and many many other classes also with large numbers, with up to 15 starts at each club. with over 180 cats on the water at the same time! all this in one of the lowest populated states -South Australia- total population of Adelaide at that time well short of 1 million (there was only a million in the whole state). How many Tornadoes were there sailing I hear you ask? well the largest number out on the water on any one saturday was at only one club (for the whole of the state) and they managed, on a good day to field a competitive fleet of 4 Tordadoes (regularly there would only be one and often none would bother to turn up because - WHAT WAS THE POINT - sail against yourself?) I am sure that similar comparative numbers can be quoted from all around Australia, so it is no wonder that Tornado's have to go OS to get the experience HELL THEY HAVE TO GO OVERSEAS JUST TO GET A RACE WITH ANY REAL NUMBERS ON THE WATER, and is this the sort of competition that is going to tune up top sailors in the class and encourage the talented local "youth" to gravitate to them? To me it would seem that they are trying to keep sailors away from the "T"s with all the difficulties that are thrown up at any one wanting to sail them instead of the oposite. Is it just me or does this seem a bit of a strange way to encourage the "top" catamaran sailors in Australia to compete for their country? or is it a means of reserving a seat for the most financialy active?

Darryl J Barrett

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Besides I didn't think that we were debating the pro's and cons of "the costs" involved to have another class of catamaran included as an Olympic representative, I thought that this thread was more interested in opinions as to which or what size cat every one thought should be accepted as "the next cat" (if by some strange twist of fate such an unlikely thing did occur) The costs are the costs, and there would be little any one could do to change that. The "T's" are already there so I'm not quite sure why the comment has been drifting towards them, I think we should be getting back to what would be the most logical size/type of cat for possible representation.

Darryl J Barrett.

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Right, so the rest of the world will travel to the southern hemisphere to sail against some Aussies, Why would they do this when there is such a high level of competition in Europe? Think about it this way: The competition in Europe is sourced from a population of over 200 million people, We however have 20 million to get our best sailors from. The fact that we are competitive at all is a wonder. Yet you believe that we would have sufficent depth of talent to require the Europeans to travel down here to sail against us in order to be competitive against themselves?

As for the competitive life of a Tornado it has been shown many times that a Marstrom Built boat is capable of being competitive at a World Championship level for more than 10 years, I dont know of any boat that does as much sailing as a T does and has such a long competitive life. There are many boats that are competitive for 10 years, but you need to understand the amount of work a T does in that period. Take my old Taipan for example, it was delivered in 1994 and sailed two days a week for that first year, then sold and continued to sail at least one day a week for the sailing season and say once a month in winter, that works out to 412 days sailing over a ten year period. Now look at a T for the same period, it would be more like 1300 days sailing. The best way to run a T campaign is to buy a second hand T at the start of the Olympiad, use it until the last year and then get a new boat, then either sell the older one or keep it in Aus as a training boat. the New boat is then good as a Euro boat for the next Olympiad and so on.

As for the Competitive life of a H16, apply the same usage method as to it as I have the Taipan and see where you end up.... Besides a Hobie 16 is fine to use for a few years at club level, but ask the top guys why they trade their boats just before a nationals each time and they will tell you that it makes a huge difference. We could all live in a fantasy land where we all compete on equal terms but the reality is this: If you don't go and campaign against the best level, have the latest boat/gear/technology, then you can bet your bottom dollar that someone else will. humans are competitive.

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Before we get into what the right size/class for the next Olympic cat is, maybe we should look at the larger issues at hand, there is a lot of pressure on ISAF from the IOC to reduce athlete numbers, however ISAF still maintain these old clunker classes that have high athlete numbers. The Yingling is a classic example as is the Star. Only when these are sorted out will there be an opening for a new class, it may be a cat. The class associations in the Yingling and Star are very strong so expect them to stay in there for a while.

If the amazing occurs and there is a new cat to be chosen then I would suggest the A class with Kite or M18 is the go, both would be spectacular (an IOC and ISAF requirement) and would have minimal impact on numbers. failing that I suggest a bathtub with a large bathtowel as a sail and a mop handle as a mast, this will reduce the elitisim that we are all so afraid of....

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At least in Australia we can sail for twelve months of the year, which makes up a lot for the disparagies in population numbers, besides by just assuming the population number difference makes it a forgone conclusion that "the greatest population draw" will produce the better level of competitor is very simplistic, there are so many more factors that determine "where the best" come from. Here, with smaller numbers, we can be on the water much more, here it is one country and we travel regularly great distances interstate to compete (a thousand Km round trip is taken in stride), in Europe a 150km trip to compete is considered a "long" way, many sailors in Europe have never travelled past their own clubs to compete let alone (god forbid" to another country! a great number of the population that you refer to in Europe live "away" from the sea, and would never think of evey "going for a paddle" let alone sail!, here most of the population live with in a short distance of the coast and we are all brought up with the idea of swimming, surfing and to a lesser degree, sailing, (in Europe they think that all Australians swim at the Olympics and the rest of the time when not riding Kangaroos down the main street, are out surfing), so I think that There are some great levelers between European "sailing" and Australia.

Darryl J Barrett

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Mongolia have a population greater than Australia but I havn't seen to many sailors come to from there? and there is more skiable snow in the Kosiosko national park than in the whole of switzland but we dont produce the number of olympic ski champions that Switzland does? America has a popultion of over 250 million to draw from yet they have never beaten Australia at cricket. Do you see my point or do I have to spell it out further?

Why don't we just get back to the original idea's of this thread?

Darryl J Barrett

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Lets not worry about what the ISAf or any one else do or don't do, there isn't much that we can do to influence their way of thinking any way, Simalarly with the logistics/costs, what we are doing on this thresd is discussing just what TYPE/SIZE of cat we all thought should be included if such an unlikely thing did occur! all the rest is only applicable if or when there eventuated another cat into Olympiuc status! lets not get way way ahead of ourselves and bog down the ideas with remotely distance cost/logistics! that may or may not ever become pertinent. (don't put the horse before the cart)

Darryl J Barrett

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Nah, this is fun route to take the thread smile.gif

Sure the population here is more focused on outdoor activities, but if you have ever been to Kiel you would have to wonder how anyone in Northern Europe even decides to start sailing, it is cold and unforgiving, yet there are unbelievable numbers of kids taking up sailing (optimist fleets number in the 500 plus for regional regattas). I have never worn anything less than a drysuit in Kiel yet kids start sailing there in shorts and T- Shirts. Their commitment is amazing to say the least.

And as for skiable area being so large here compared to the Alps, you really need to go and ski in both places to understand why we are crap in the snow, It still amazes me every time I go to Verbier (Swiss alps, about 40 mins from Geneva), I have been there on some amazing days and some days that the locals swear is the worst they have ever seen and it is still incomparable to the best day in Aus. The same could be said for our sailing competition. You just have to realise that the world is a big place and that if we want to be a part of it we have to make an effort and go and see it. Most Europeans sailors that I know do more travelling than we do out here, I'm not sure what your concept of a long way is but I know guys that travel from Sweden to the Canarie Islands for a regatta at Xmas, then home again until they return to Palma in April, following this they go to Hyeres, Spa, Texel, Kiel, Travemunde etc plus they fit in a European champs and a Worlds wherever they may be. this is more travelling than anyone I know would dream of doing locally.

Anyhow, you have your opinion and you are entitled to it, just consider it from a big picture point of view before lambasting the current situation

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You seem to take what I write a lttle too literaly Mal, what I was saying regarding Switzland, America, etc, was purely to ilustrate that total population, do not by a long shot, relate to the excellence in "sport" of a country or people. We have 250 million Indonesian just to the north of us but there is no one sailing here that I know of that considers them a threat to our position in the rankings of sailing, or competitive sport in general, And as to your assumption regarding my understanding of "the rest of the world", I am personally very familiar with most of Europe and Europeans,(as well as the America's) first hand from having over 45 years of regular (on the spot, so to speak) contact personally and through business. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying in the least to "put down" sailing in Europe, I have every respect for competitive sailors where ever they sail (I consider sailing the one true thing that keeps sailors more sane than the non sailing population), what I would like to see is for Australian sailors to look at themselves for what they are - potentually, and in fact, probably man for man, woman for woman, the best damn competitors on the water in the world bar none. (you know that "Jesus was a sailor, when he walked upon the water") I think that he was also really an Australian!

darryl J Barrett

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Who the hell is Mal?

and what prey tell makes Aussies so much better than the rest of the world? I think we are good, but so are many countries. Take the UK for example, they had a stunning result in Sydney 2000 and I would expect a similar if not better result in Athens. I reckon Aussies are the best sailors in Australia, but there are plently of other countries out there with better resources, funding, programs etc...

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Any how, Mal, using your example of "greatest population" as a base why them should there be any argument against the "next Olympic cat" coming from the 4.3 size? The greatest number of cat sailors in Australia learn't their catamaran sailing skills on a 4.3 of some description or other. So what if there is or isn't a suitable 4.3 cat out there as of this point in time, for the big "O"? If the ISAF set down perimeters for one for a "sail off" I'm quite sure that they would appear from all over the world in a flash to "try out", and the with enormous numbers of sailors in Australia that are completely familiar with sailing 4.3 cats, wouldn't that alone give a "jump start" towards some sort of class domination here?

Darryl J Barrett

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From my observations , I will qualify for you my opinion of "the best in the world" in sailing. If you take the majority of sailors competing around the world, (leave out the top .01% sailors from every country, as there are always exceptions that appear no matter where) but stack up the performance of the "average" competitive sailor s from everywhere and it is my opinion that there is no comparison, - The average Australian sailor outclass's all the rest hands down.

Darryl J Barrett

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So Macca you would like us to believe that a 20ft long 10ft wide boat with a 30ft mast, which is sailed almost exclusively overseas, is hell expensive to purchase and maintain, is very difficult to transport on a trailer, has a rigging regime of epic proportions that makes it totally unsuitable for day racing at club level, requires our best sailors to live on the continent and make very infrequent trips to Oz resulting in our blokes having no serious competition here, is the best boat to give Australian cat sailors the opportunity to compete in the Olympics. Sorry bud, I just can't see your logic. It's even possible that the BIG T is responsible to a large degree for the downturn in interest in cat sailing in Australia given that the only prospect of representing one's country on a cat, is on this most impractical sailboat. It's even just possible that if young people could have a chance at Olympic representation on a decent club cat, there would be many more young hopefuls sailing cats. As it is, a sailors best chance at representing Australia in sailing is by far-and-away a monohull. For an Australian, the most difficult campaign in which to achieve success across all the Olympic disciplines is probably cat sailing.

Now, if we were to be charged with the responsibility of choosing the best boat, the one which would be the most practical, the boat which would have the most impact on promoting the catamaran as a practical option, which one would we choose? Certainly not the biggest, most expensive, most difficult, least popular, least often seen, off the beach (only just) macho machine going around. This would be totally counterproductive. No, it would have to be a boat that a majority of existing and potential sailors would be capable of campaigning successfully. It would need to be a single hander. This is because instead of having two sailors on one boat you have a boat for each sailor, potentially doubling the number of boats on the water. It would need to be an easily managed boat so as to attract the maximum number of participants and this means easily managed on the water, on the grass, on the road on the trailer and at home in the yard, driveway, garage. It needs to be an exciting boat to sail and that's why it's a cat. It needs to be reasonably robust and easily available at a reasonably cost. It would have to be a one design but not one which puts draconian regulations on the owners such as all parts must be manufactured and supplied by one company. In short it needs to be the most exciting of the smallest, cheapest, strongest, most high tech. for the money catamaran available.

Emmessee the 430 weighs 70kg all up ready to sail. smile.gif

Bern

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 10 May 2004).]

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Howdy Macca,

Welcome to the thread. It is great to have somebody contribute that has some knowledge in this area.

I have felt like I have beating my head against a brick wall trying to explain the difference in quality of a T and other cats, Cost of campaign, level of commitment ect. It is a shame some of my post were lost in the web site crash.

I have found peoples ignorance and lack off knowledge in this thread quite amussing.

My advice to those is before dishing the Tornado Class, it's competition or the Olympic Class selection criteria, have a look at the Tornado Class. The quality of the boat, level of competition and fleet numbers at regular regattas overseas.

The Olympics dose not revolve around Australia. If we cannot get the fleet numbers and required level of competition then we fall behind. The regattas mentioned above by Macca see between 50 to 80 Tornados competing with some of the best and most professional catamaran teams the world have ever seen.

Please check the facts before passing comment as this thread is becoming quiet a bore.

Lets see some posts from informed individuals on this subject.

[This message has been edited by tornado (edited 13 May 2004).]

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Ok, you win, lets get the maricat 4.3 in the Olympics, it is available to all for a cheap price (mine cost $800 on a registered trailer) and it satisfies all your criteria for an Olympic cat. It's also only sailed in Australia so that would be the perfect way to encourage the Europeans to come here to compete, they will have to scour the Trading Post for good second hand boats, then race them at in the Parramatta river at Concord. Yes I can see it all now, the Olympic ideals: Stronger, Higher, Faster, Maricat.

I can't help but feel that you guys are pissed off that you didn't get the chance to compete internationally on a T due to funds etc, but in reality if the desire is great enough then you would have found a way, as will any other young sailors that want to go all the way.

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You T guys are a defensive lot. The main topic for discussion on this thread is; which boat would be most suitable as the SECOND Olympic catamaran. That is, if there's to be a second Olympic catamaran, what would be a suitable boat. There has been no mention of dumping the T as an O/boat so why the continuing, unrelenting defence of the Tornado?

And as for local sailing discussion being 'amusing' and 'boring' to all the sophisticated international/Olympic elite, please be patient and give us mere mortals a break, we might be just ignorant bums but we try hard.

Bern

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 11 May 2004).]

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