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The second Olympic Cat


berthos

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Wow!!! Twenty posts in one day. Must be a record!

Even though the ISAF President Paul Henderson wants a beach cat, the rest of the sailing world wants a keelboat to be added to the olympic sailing disciplines. I'm surprised that a cat is even still included.

Despite what he says about Hobie 16s, I must agree with Macca, that the tornado is the best choice for Olympic cat, currently available. There are many criteria to be met and tornado does it well at that level.

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You certainly assume a lot Steve when you refer to every one who is not immediately totally PRO Tornado as being uninformed at the least and possibly stupid by inference! In my time sailing I have owned three Tornados my eldest son has had one as well, and my youngest son sailed one for three seasons so I am moderately offended when I see references such as yours implying that you and a rare few are the only ones informed enough about the Tornado to be able to discuss them with some sort of authority!

I find it very telling on your attitude about the "T" when, as Berny says "Why are you Tornado guys so defensive?" It would seem that every thing that some one says about their opinions concerning "a new Olympic cat", you have to turn it around and bring the focus back on to the Tornado when that is not even the real discussion point of this thread. I would like to see you answer the very valid points that Berny made about the Tornado, and not see you just ridicule instead (you seem to want to shoot the messenger when you don't like the message)

Darryl J Barrett

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I find that you refer to the "teams" sailing "T's" in europe as "professional"! I take it that you mean in the monetary sense (as well as in competence), and that is a big part of the problem, they are and have to be financially professional to be able to contest the Tornado at international level. That should tell any one right there that to sail a Tornado at the highest level, you don't have to be amongst the best catamaran sailors, instead you have to have the finance first and formost! Then and only then can you even think of competing seriously on a Tornado. That by the way is totally contrary to the original concepts of the Olympic games where friendly competition was sought between the most talented, from every country around the world regardless of and in spite of politics, position, and wealth, HELL, perhaps the Olympics SHOULD return to purely AMATEUR statis, it would certainly change the mood of this debate!

Darryl J Barrett

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Just reading back through the posts that "Tornado" has made, I see he has said that " an easy boat to sail is not in the spirit of the Olympics"! and "The Tornado, with the exception of the Mistral,is the cheapest"! "It has a competitive life of 10 years, far greater than other catamarans"! "The Tornado is harder to master than less complicated boats"! BUT THEN HE SAYS THAT "The Tornado is quite an easy boat to sail, it is very stable and not as flighty, due to it's beam" (Which is it Steve? hard to sail or easy?). This statement I just love, "Sailing a Marstrom Tornado you will also understand why it was chosen and still remains, after 28 years the Olympic class catamaran"! Well Steve the marstrom had absolutely nothing to do with why the Tornado was "selected" (not chosen) as an Olympic class catamaran, and in the original selection process, one of the prime demands of the IYRU at the time was that IT HAD TO BE A DESIGN THAT COULD BE FULLY COMPETITVE AND "HOME" CONSTRUCTED SO THAT THE COSTS COULD BE KEPT WITHIN THE REACH OF THE "AVERAGE SAILOR" My how time's change and how some people will always try to rewrite history to validate their present position!

By simply saying over and over again that "The Tornado remains competitive for years of massively above average sailing time and the resail is excellent" doesn't make it fact. There are many sailors out there that have found from personal experience, that those statements by you are just not accurate, no matter "how hard you push that barrow" I think I could say without being too offensive, that you are a little one eyed towards the Tornado and a little blind sided to most other catamarans? (thats OK most sailors are the same way about the class that they either love and or sail)

I never thought there was any criteria of spirit for the Olympics for a boat "not simple to sail" (quote, "an easy boat to sail is not in the spirit of the Olympics" end quote) I thought that the spirit of the Olympics was to foster and encourage FAIR competition between the nations of the world! Surely FAIR competition does not require that a boat be either difficult or easy to sail, but that each piece of equipment used (in this case catamaran) be equal? (regardless of any so called difficulty or ease) Show me where it states anything about "difficulty" in any of the criteria for the Olympics?

But you are, in my opinion, right, I always found the Tornado a "real pussy" to sail, particularly compared to many other classes of cats that are much more demanding to "get the best out of".

Darryl J Barrett

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Just a little curious Steve, you keep saying that the Tornado holds its resale price and is competitive for LOTS of years, right? So could you just satisfy my curiosity a little and tell me just how many Tornados have you personally owned and how many years have you competitively sailed it/them? I need some point of reference here between what you are saying and what your actual experience is.

Darryl J Barrett

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Cool it fella's.

This is not the place for a slanging match about what boat does what and how long it does it for.

I have 24 year old Trifly as well as a Maricat and have sailed everything from Maxi's to 18 footers, Tornado's and Nacra's as well as Hobie's, Corsair's and Manly Junior's plus many others. I would sail half my Trifly if that is where the sport took me.

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Iv'e had my say now EMMESSEE, so I will, as you say "cool it". I just couldn't help but to rise to the challenge that seems to have been thrown down by the Tornado advocates when in reality the Tornado's, in my opinion should have only been a small side issue on this thread, not the main course.

Darryl J Barrett

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Quote Darryl "You certainly assume a lot Steve when you refer to every one who is not immediately totally PRO Tornado as being uninformed at the least and possibly stupid by inference! In my time sailing I have owned three Tornados my eldest son has had one as well, and my youngest son sailed one for three seasons so I am moderately offended when I see references such as yours implying that you and a rare few are the only ones informed enough about the Tornado to be able to discuss them with some sort of authority!

I find it very telling on your attitude about the "T" when, as Berny says "Why are you Tornado guys so defensive?" It would seem that every thing that some one says about their opinions concerning "a new Olympic cat", you have to turn it around and bring the focus back on to the Tornado when that is not even the real discussion point of this thread. I would like to see you answer the very valid points that Berny made about the Tornado, and not see you just ridicule instead (you seem to want to shoot the messenger when you don't like the message)"

I never call anybody stupid but did pass comment that there have been some comments made by people on this thread that obviously shows their lack of knowledge in this subject. The Tornado that you have owned.... What types were they? How old? And in what way did you sail them? Did you race at State/National titles, at Sail Melbourne or any other International regattas and how competitive were you or how serious did you take it. Just some background knowledge for me.

I turned the conversation back to Tornado after some miss-informed comments and some obvious attacks on the class.

Quote Darryl "I find that you refer to the "teams" sailing "T's" in Europe as "professional"! I take it that you mean in the monetary sense (as well as in competence), and that is a big part of the problem, they are and have to be financially professional to be able to contest the Tornado at international level. That should tell any one right there that to sail a Tornado at the highest level, you don't have to be amongst the best catamaran sailors, instead you have to have the finance first and foremost! Then and only then can you even think of competing seriously on a Tornado. That by the way is totally contrary to the original concepts of the Olympic games where friendly competition was sought between the most talented, from every country around the world regardless of and in spite of politics, position, and wealth, HELL, perhaps the Olympics SHOULD return to purely AMATEUR statis, it would certainly change the mood of this debate!"

This is not unique to the Tornado class. All Olympic class boats sailing at this level have the same professional approach. But like the Tornado, not all Olympic class boat sailors choose to compete at this level. Many enjoy sailing their boat at a local level and also are competitive at a local level. They also believe that they would not rather sail any other boat than their chosen class

Quote Darryl "Just reading back through the posts that "Tornado" has made, I see he has said that " an easy boat to sail is not in the spirit of the Olympics"! and "The Tornado, with the exception of the Mistral,is the cheapest"! "It has a competitive life of 10 years, far greater than other catamarans"! "The Tornado is harder to master than less complicated boats"! BUT THEN HE SAYS THAT "The Tornado is quite an easy boat to sail, it is very stable and not as flighty, due to it's beam" (Which is it Steve? hard to sail or easy?)."

The Tornado is quiet an easy boat to sail around the cans as many not as experienced sailors find. However, to squeeze the last couple of percent out of the boat and to sail it at its full potential, it is very difficult to achieve.

Quote Darryl "This statement I just love, "Sailing a Marstrom Tornado you will also understand why it was chosen and still remains, after 28 years the Olympic class catamaran"! Well Steve the Marstrom had absolutely nothing to do with why the Tornado was "selected" (not chosen) as an Olympic class catamaran, and in the original selection process, one of the prime demands of the IYRU at the time was that IT HAD TO BE A DESIGN THAT COULD BE FULLY COMPETITVE AND "HOME" CONSTRUCTED SO THAT THE COSTS COULD BE KEPT WITHIN THE REACH OF THE "AVERAGE SAILOR" My how time's change and how some people will always try to rewrite history to validate their present position!"

Yes you are correct. The Marstrom was not the reason the Tornado was selected. The tornado was selected due to its superior performance and after many years of development, Marstrom have set a new benchmark in quality that the other manufactures will need to match. This is why they hold a very high majority of the market.

As for the IYRU demands you have mentioned above...... Time has changed sadly. It would be great if we could sail a boat competitively that we build ourselves and that we also would not have to dedicate ourselves to a full time professional approach to our sailing to remain competitive. It would sure make it easier on us all. However chasing a highly sought after Gold, sailors in all Olympic classes (and other sports) have upped the anti over time to achieve it so we must follow suite. This is considered the pinnacle of sporting achievement. It dose not come easy and only a select few will give themselves the opportunity to do so in ALL Olympic sports.

Quote Darryl "By simply saying over and over again that "The Tornado remains competitive for years of massively above average sailing time and the resail is excellent" doesn't make it fact. There are many sailors out there that have found from personal experience, that those statements by you are just not accurate, no matter "how hard you push that barrow" I think I could say without being too offensive, that you are a little one eyed towards the Tornado and a little blind sided to most other catamarans? (thats OK most sailors are the same way about the class that they either love and or sail)"

Please read the story below originally written buy John Forbes and can be found on the Tornado website www.tornado.org

You may also like to find copies of boat reports on the Tornado in the Seahorse magazine published earlier this year (will try and find out which ones). They also have a great report on the Marstrom Factory which goes into detail on how they have achieved the quality of boats they are producing.

Quote Darryl "I never thought there was any criteria of spirit for the Olympics for a boat "not simple to sail" (quote, "an easy boat to sail is not in the spirit of the Olympics" end quote) I thought that the spirit of the Olympics was to foster and encourage FAIR competition between the nations of the world! Surely FAIR competition does not require that a boat be either difficult or easy to sail, but that each piece of equipment used (in this case catamaran) be equal? (regardless of any so called difficulty or ease) Show me where it states anything about "difficulty" in any of the criteria for the Olympics?

But you are, in my opinion, right, I always found the Tornado a "real pussy" to sail, particularly compared to many other classes of cats that are much more demanding to "get the best out of"."

Tell a top level Tornado sailor that their boat is a real pussy to sail compared to many other classes that are much more demanding to get the best out of. Have you ever been able to achieve the best out of the Tornados you have sailed.

Quote Darryl "Steve if you want to promote the Tornado to encourage more sailors to participate in sailing them, do it with more "realistic" and positive arguments! not by denigrating other classes in comparison to them."

I am not denigrating other classes but coming to the defense of the Tornado Class with informed comments after un-informed sledging of the class.

Quote Darryl "Just a little curious Steve, you keep saying that the Tornado holds its resale price and is competitive for LOTS of years, right? So could you just satisfy my curiosity a little and tell me just how many Tornados have you personally owned and how many years have you competitively sailed it/them? I need some point of reference here between what you are saying and what your actual experience is."

I currently sail a Reg White upgraded to Marstom rudders, boards, mast, beams, new sails and other mods. We have sailed the boat for a very short time (3years). The boat is a dog of a boat compared to a late model Marstom which we intend to upgrade to. The platform is showing its age (16 years) after many years and many hours off abuse all over the world by some off the Best Tornado sailors.

We have sailed the boat regularly at a club level, allot off local regattas, State/National Champs and several Sail Melbournes against the likes of Bundy/Forbes, Greek and New Zealand Teams and other top local talent. We are not yet upto International pace but have provided good competition with some of the top boats. We have sailed at the highest Australian level for 3 years now and are marketing ourselves to sponsors. Looking at purchasing a competitive platform and travel to Europe for experience at an International level.

My comments, whilst not being the most experienced in this subject, are based on my experience in our 'practice' Olympic campaign (which still continues) and knowledge shared buy past and present Olympic campaigners and Olympic coach whom are helping greatly in guiding us.

Please share the experience you have in this field which makes you experienced to comment on these issues.

Also, if anybody has any constructive questions about the Tornado class or an Olympic Campaign, please post them. I will answer them if I know or will endeavor to find out for you.

*******

CREW WEIGHT

The one-design (as opposed to one-manufacturer) Class Rules have allowed the Tornado Class to insure close racing from sailing like-designs, but with the ability to alter the shape of the sails within the approved sailplan to control power. This has allowed teams to be competitive regardless of weight combination or stature, an important feature of the Tornado that has survived the years and the change to the new rig.

The problem often associated with one-manufacturer classes, where in addition to the boats the sails are also strictly controlled, is that a standard weight/height combination dominates. With the ability to alter the sail shape within the Tornado sailplan has resulted in a class where minimum crew weight is not necessary; in the final results in a Tornado event, it is common to have teams whose total weight varies by 40 kg to appear in the top 10.

MATERIALS

Another advantage of the one-design concept with multiple manufactures is the freedom to allow competitors to build such things as rudders and boards, and to do their own rigging. This insures increased strength and extended competitive life of components as modern materials become available at lower cost. An example of this; from a one-manufacturer class rudder replacement can become costly if the materials chosen by the manufacturer years ago cannot be upgraded. Over the years, the Tornado class rules have changed to allow for material improvements in many of the details, especially sails, to take advantage of improvements.

Rigging also has high replacement cost. If a manufacturer chooses lower-grade materials to keep the "new purchase price" low in order to be competitive in the retail market place, it is the active competitor who pays extra by having to constantly replace the lower-grade components. A fine example of this is the traveler on modern catamarans; on the Tornado, modern technology has lead to a dramatic decrease in replacement costs, as parts can be mixed from a variety of sources.

LIFE EXPECTANCY

The natural technological evolution of materials, plus the push for the sailors for stronger boats at the same weights, has allowed the Tornado Class to increase its competitive life dramatically since the late ‘80’s. While having a reputation as fragile and short-lived back in the 70's, the modern Tornados have racing lives of 7-10 years. Many of the world's Tornado sailors, who actively race in other catamarans, know well that the modern production boats have top-level racing lives of 1-3 years.

One of the major causes for the low resale value of the one-manufacturer boats is that they are often supplied at major events. This saves the competitor no money, since they have to have the boats to qualify to get to the top events. These supplied boats, which are then sold cheaply by the manufacturer after the event, actually hurt the most active racers by lowering the resale values of their won boats.

The rules of the Tornado class have also resulted in sails that have long racing lives, the result of the competition among sailmakers for quality and durability. One-manufacturer sails, on the other hand, are mass produced at the cheapest price that the manufacturer is willing to gamble with, from materials that are not the quality of open classes. The result again is that the racing competitor pays more, buying more sails to stay on top.

CLASS RULES

The Tornado Class Rules have evolved and been developed over many years and now ensure strict attention to all details relating to the performance of the boat. Rules are modified as needed and wanted by the sailors themselves, to allow the Tornado to advance with modern technology yet always considering the long-term effectiveness of the changes.

The Olympic status of the Tornado has brought some of the finest sailors from all over the world to the class. With over 22 nations regularly attending the annual World and Continental championships, and with the medals won at the Olympics going to sailors from all the continents where the boat is active, the Tornado has a world-wide level of racing matched only by a very small handfull of other classes.

The Class Rules allow the boats to progress with technology and let modern materials such as carbon fiber, nomex, epoxy resins, and high-grade aluminum to be used as they fall in price and can be incorporated into the boat, resulting in constantly improving quality. This helps resale values and enables the Tornado to maintain its marque as the ultimate speed machine; to this day, closing in on 40 years after it birth, the Tornado is still the fastest one-design production boat in the world.

For the immediate future, the class is concerned with ways to bring in more modern, lighter materials while maintaining the one-design nature of the boat, and done in such a way that the purchase price of a new boat can be contained.

The Tornado: in its first Olympics, it was the fastest and most spectacular of the Olympic classes. Now, after the turn of the century, it is still that boat, the fastest, most exciting,most spectacular of the Olympic boats.

This article originally by John Forbes of Australia, 5-time World Champion and Bronze (92) and Silver (00) medallist, with updates by Jim Young, one of the major coaches in the class since 1981.

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Bring it on Darryl,

Answer my questions... Pass comment on what I have said.

Just exactly what makes you an expert in this field. Or did you just punt around the cans at club level in a couple of tired Ts.

Have you tried to launch an Olympic Campaign. Do you know what happens over seas. Australia is far from the hub of Olympic Sailing.

Satisfy my questions and I will bow down humbely and respect you comments.

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If you MUST know! From my 45 years of successful, professional experience, designing, manufacturing, and marketting, over 4000 so called "off the beach" catamarans, as well as quite a few larger designs on commision. No I was never stupid enough to "mount" an Olympic challenge in sailing, not even in my youth was I prepared to sacrifice so much for so little, BUT I did make it to the final selection trials in athletics for the Rome Olympics, (which is more than you can say). Yes I was highly competitive on every catamaran that I sailed, and I still am junior. And YES I am a regular traveller to Europe and the Americas, and yes I do try to remain familiar with ALL the developments in catamarans. Perhaps you could do a little home work instead of taking the easy, quite insulting way out, and find out who I am before opening your loud mouth, if you look a little I'm sure that some one might tell you who I really am.

That is the most that I am prepared to stoop to in answering personal information about myself and if I was you I would let it drop right there.

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Darryl,

My home work tells me you designed and manufactured Sundance Catamarans. This I have to admire as whilst they are no longer active, you made a contribution to the cat scene. Also congratulations on your Athletic achievements. I may not boast the same resume as you here but I am still young, driven and plan to fulfil my lifes ambitions. I have only just began.

However, I would still like to continue my home work.

With all respect to this conversation, what exactly is you experince in the Tornado class. Also what is your knowledge behind the class and knowledge in campainging a Tornado or any other class towards and Olympics. THIS IS after all what this recent disscussion is all about. I would like to see anybody who passes comment here to back it up with fact or substance. I have shown the courtasy to inform you of my knowledge and experience in this area. It would be appreciated if you do likewise.

I try to respond to questions or comments with informed information. If anybody here can prove my comments wrong or misleading please correct me with appropriate facts and I will stand corrected.

Regards

Stephen.

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I now (and in the past) also manufacture Alpha Omegas, in fact we are at this moment putting together two new designed, different sized all carbon fibre Alpha's with beams, mast, boom, rudders, centre boards, rudder stocks, and spinnaker pole all also in carbon fibre, and we will be releasing the first one commercially this coming summer. I have over the years owned three Tornados, the first was a very stiff, very competitive ply hulled boat called "shot gun" (I inherited the name) I also purchsed a new Reg white boat some years ago, and the last one I owned I assembled myself at our works useing new Jim Boyer hulls. The last one was sailed at the nationals in Perth I think in about 1989 or 90 or there abouts by my youngest son and a friend of his. Was I competitive? yes I have only ever sailed that way, what other reason is there to compete? did I approach and sail the Tornado in the way that you seem to want to? no they were never my main interest. I have had more important concerns than to spend my time banging my head against a brick wall to try beating odds as high as they are for an Australian to be internationally successful on a Tornado at the cost of all "normal" life, but never doubt that there wasn't any aspect of the involvement necesary for that sort of commitment that I haven't explored fully.

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Let it go guys, there's nothing to be gained here but more bad feeling and life ain't long enough to waste a nano second arguing about stuff that in the big scheme of things don't matter squat. Lets talk about sailing and sailboats (cats), it's much more fun wink.gif

Bern

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I have enjoyed reading all of this very much, and I have also had to grit my teeth and stay out of it, but still a good read.

The thing I like is the passion you guys have, even though you may differ in you opinions, the passion for sailing and in particular catamarans is sensational.

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I really admire your self control EMMESSEE, it must have been hard to keep out of it? A good bun fight is always hard to resist entering. I found it mostly fun and enjoyed "getting it off my chest" still I think it's all over now and perhaps we can get back to normallicy. No hard feelings fella's? I certainly don't hold any ill will, and if I upset anyone I apologise, that wasn't my intention.

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