mal gray Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Wots it like in 30 kts with the kite up? (Just had to ask) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inland_Sailor Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Berny How come nobody was interested in your 430? All cat sailors want a boat that points like a mono!! Was it snobery, people only wanting a bigger boat? I'd line up for one if it didn't blow the budget. What costing does the 430 work out at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Originally posted by mal gray: Wots it like in 30 kts with the kite up? (Just had to ask) Mal, I've never been on the water in 30k of wind on the 430 or any other OTB sailboat either for that matter. I am talking about 30 on the wind gauge though. 30k is a shirtload of wind. In measured wind strengths of 30k you can have gusts of up to 40+ and most OTB sailboats are on their sides in that sort of breeze so the prospect of flying a spinnaker is more than just a tad daunting. I have however twice spent the night at sea in storm conditions and 40k (constant) of wind on off shore race boats and it was very scary survival stuff so I have a great respect for nature particularly when it comes to strong winds and sailboats. I suspect that the kite on the 430 will be used in wind strengths of 1-10/15k unless the skipper (not me) is a gung ho thrill seeker with lots of cash (again not me). Originally posted by Inland_Sailor: How does it perform in light winds between 3 - 8 knts? I.S. because the boat is reasonably light it responds quickly to puffs in light wind conditions and it seems to get going well due to it's min. drag hull profiles but as you said, all current 14ftrs are old heavy technology and generally slow in light conditions so anything with less weight is going to be an improvement. Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Jees Mal! what is this thing between you and 30 knots with spinnaker? you sound like Ahab searching for the great white whale- Moby Dick. I think you want to be the first sailor ever on an off the beach cat that can set a kite in 30 plus knots and sail away over the horizon as if it was only 15 knots, never to be seen again, and in so doing pass into legend - Mal Gray the greatest spinnaker sailor ever, took off in 30 knots with spinnaker, disappeared over the horizon, no one could catch him, and now the only time that he is ever seen is on a full moon in a squall, out in the middle of the ocean flying along like a spectre from hell laughing, always laughing, and then as soon as he appears, he's gone in an eirie cloud of spray, and the last thing that is heard is the chilling voice of MAL GRAY singing! ever singing (The Waves Are Alive To The Sounds Of Music) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Wot you smokin Daz or you into the potata moonshine again?? That's some imagination for an old coot. Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 You haven't met Mal, have you Berny?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 WOULD YOU set your kite in thirty knots of wind, ditch, get up and set it again, ditch embeding your spinnaker pole into the mud, get up, grit your teeth and still "go for it"?????? Well Mal does!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 That alone is a good beginning of an "epic legend" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Darryl, i think you need to learn to compose your thoughts before hitting submit! As for Mal, other people might have put thier crew's saftey and the welfare of thier equipment first, guess that's not Mal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Great Idea the 430. Originally posted by Inland_Sailor: Berny How come nobody was interested in your 430? All cat sailors want a boat that points like a mono!! Was it snobbery, people only wanting a bigger boat? I'd line up for one if it didn't blow the budget. What costing does the 430 work out at? Mate, I thought it would be a great idea too but apparently I was wrong. Yes it has something to do with life style and mortgages and credit cards, computers etc but there are still lots of people sailing mono's. Thousands of kids in hundreds of clubs all over Oz every weekend train in and race mono's but the number of cat sailors racing regularly you could count on your hands. Sailing regularly at a club is not popular with a lot of cat sailors and the idea of sailing a 14ftr anywhere is basically out of the question for the majority of the 'older' guys. There are precious few cat clubs and there even less that run a sail training program. This means that there are few young people taking it up because there is little provision for them and little or no encouragement. Look at the average age of cat sailors compared to mono sailors. I also think it was a sort of snobbery. If you've ever been to an open regatta on a 14 you know what I'm talking about. The idea amongst cat sailors that the biggest boat must be the best boat was/is difficult to counter and basically anything under 16ft is seen pretty much as a toy and just a bloody nuisance. Catamaran racing seems to attract more of a fringe dweller type sailor in search of the ultimate thrill (on a boat ) and they often appear to be oblivious or unconcerned (to their detriment) that not a lot of sailors are attracted to cat sailing. This attitude is of course not conducive to a congenial atmosphere which would attract new blood. The other problem with cats is that a manufacturer has to build two hulls, two ruder assys, two d/boards, supply a trampoline, a bigger mast, sail, and boom than that on a mono of equivalent length, but do it for the same price which is somewhat difficult so the consensus is that cats are expensive or if in fact they are sold (as they frequently are) for similar money the builder gets little return for his effort particularly in a contracted market place. What is needed IMHO is a concerted effort to recruit more younger sailors but they are going to need a decent boat and some decent competition with lots of encouragement and coaching. Is it possible? If history is anything to go by I have to say I'm not confident. Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 I think that if you were going to be all that cautous HOOD, you wouldn't ever put any sort of boat on the water to "race" for pleasure. After you take that step and decide to race, saftey and pleasure are measured by degrees and the judgemt of the individual sailor. What seems "reckless" to one may be well within the capacity of another, besides who are we to critise another sailor's exploits on the water without setting ourselves up for close scrutiny. Would you say that solo racing around the world non stop is a "Safe" way to race? regardless of any precautions that the sailor takes? or is the whole venture foolhardy and serves no worthwhile purpose - the adventuous spirit in humans versus the cautious sense of self preservation - It's an argument that has been going on for ever, and will continue for just as long as there is a human race. I feel that we shouldn't judge the actions of any individual sailor, but instead enjoy the moment when some one does somethig "different" without hurting any one else. I say good on ya Mal. "It's the things that an individual does "differently" by which the race learns as a whole" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 HOOD you should take another look at you clubs junour Sabot motto. I think it sums up sailing fairly well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Don't get too pessimistic Berny, everything goes round and round, you just have to be there on the next revolution, who knows, next year may be the start of the biggest resurgence in "off the beach" 14' cat sailing ever! Lets hope so and just wait and see. In the mean time, smile, it's better for your facial lines than frowning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Actually boyz, my last question was tongue-in-cheek. 30 kts is a shed-load of breeze and my original point was, that it really is no fun and damn scary to survive in, let alone claim to do with control. Hood, I was scared spitless but it was my crew who wanted more!! As for the boat, well.......... Hobies are known to be tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inland_Sailor Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Berny I can see your point, but many 14' cat sailors also go into mossies and tiapans etc, not beacause they are unhappy with 14's but because the want to move on to another challenge in their sailing devt with a boat that offers more. In my little club cats actually have made a comeback and now actually make up more than 50% of our racing fleet and that on inland water. Part of this is due to the relative cheapness in buying a Mari/Windy and in part due to the flexibility of 14' cats to be sailed single handed or with crew. This feature makes cat sailing attractive and perhaps is the key to rejuvinating the whole cat scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 MAL! Now youv'e gone and spoilt it all. Here I was trying to stir up a little controversy and creat an "Urban Legend" at the same time, and youv'e just shot me down in flames and shown everyone that you are "just an ordinary human being", spoil sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Mal, your crew has a death wish, sounds like a perfect crew to me! I am probably slightly biased here towards public saftey considering the soaring public liability insuance we have to pay each season. I all seriousness. when I race, my priorites are my own saftey, the saftey of my crew,(so close to my own its not funny) the boat and way down last is the race. lets face it, its not worth killing yourself over getting your name on a bit of tin at the end of the season. for us breaking a mast is fairly disastous, its a major pain getting the thing accross bass straight in one peice with out any insurance.. can take anywhere up to 3 months to get here, and even then there it a chance it will turn up stuffed. better to miss one race than 12. the VYC set racing wind speed limits for many class's you will notice very few cats over 26 knots. http://www.vic.yachting.org.au/default.asp?Page=1358&MenuID=Downloads/1226/2563 darryl, are you working on getting everything you want to say into one post yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 True Hood, I've seldom started a race in over 25kts, certainly never a club race. However, there have been many times I have finished a race in stronger breeze so if the bodies are willing,it helps to know what you can and can't do. I'm gonna leave this thread to the F14 guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Originally posted by Inland_Sailor: Berny What costing does the 430 work out at? I_S the 430 isn't 'in production' (no orders) so a current price would be a bit of a stab in the dark but I'd guestimate I could build one for under 10k. The hulls are the problem, ie finding someone who is capable of laying up the foam sandwich and vac. bagging it to keep weight down. I have some contacts but I've had no reason to talk to them so far. The original boats (2) were done by Pete Skewes in Sydney but he no longer has his Shipwrights co. Too bad. If you're interested I could do you a quote. Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Originally posted by HooD: Mal, your crew has a death wish, sounds like a perfect crew to me! I am probably slightly biased here towards public safety considering the soaring public liability instance we have to pay each season. In all seriousness, when I race, my priorities are my own safety, the safety of my crew, (so close to my own its not funny) the boat and way down last is the race. Lets face it, its not worth killing yourself over getting your name on a bit of tin at the end of the season. for us breaking a mast is fairly disastrous, Gees, I couldn't agree more and I seriously doubt anyone can really enjoy choosing to stress their boat and crew to the max in 20+k of wind (on the gauge) to win a bloody boat race. It never ceases to amaze me how some guys are too $#!+ scared to say "na I'm not going to risk my own, my son's/daughter's life to maintain my poxy macho ego". I was doing a state titles once and the first race was held in 20+. I went to the start line but it was just a complete mess out there. There were boats over everywhere with no chance of the one rescue boat (the other on start duty) being able to look after all the capsized boats safely. I decided to retire and suggested that if all the top boats retired it would cause them to call it off, or if it ran without us, it wouldn't make any difference to the end result. Egos ruled and I was the only boat to sail back to shore and sit with the mums on the beach. That took balls let me tell you. My main competition for the series broke his mast and lost any chance of winning over the remaining races with a borrowed spar. Poetic justice IMHO but it illustrates the point that it's more difficult to say no, than to risk physical injury and or damage to your boat and crew and even possibly death in some circumstances. Way, way to big a risk in my mind for a silly bloody boat race in some remote location in this remote country on some insignificant class where the result amounts to less than a hill of beans. How stupid IS that??? Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 NAHH, I couldn't do that HOOD, (Iwant to see what comes after "Old Salt") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Besides on ADSL it's easier to punctuate your thoughts with different postings, By the way Berny, are you going to make your hulls (and perhaps other components) in Carbon fibre down the track, or are your hulls already carbon? the overall weight is pretty good for a "polyester" lay up? I have been looking at the "Windrush" web site and the price of a new 4.3 is up at the $10,000 mark (or higher in some configurations) so I'm not sure if any "new" 4.3 cat could be put on the market at under $10,000 and still make it even worthwhile for a manufacturer to put in the effort, it's a pity, but the logistic of material, labour and overheads, are a hard mistress that can't be argued with. Its strange to look back at the late seventies when we were argueing about whether we should raise the price of our 4.3's to over the $1000 mark, or whether it would kill our market place. makes you think, doesn't it? Still I think that any "high tech" new 4.3 will still be marketed at around half the price of a new 4.9 Taipan which theoretically makes them (the 4.3) cheaper than they have ever been by comparison. I just received the new sail for the Alpha and with battens it costs me (trade) over $2000 when in the 70's a new set with battens (main and jib) was $168 which we though was expensive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Personally, I love the challenge of my little Maricat, but at 100+ kg's, I cannot compete if the wind is less than 10knots. I love the heavy stuff though and don't use the trapeze. I will say however, if a 14 or even 16 foot high performance and light boat came out at a reasonable price, I would be tempted as long as there was going to be a fleet of them to race. The 430 is a great looking boat, but there is no competition in Sydney for it. That is also part of the reason I would love to get people sailing out of Balmoral so we can get good mixed fleets, then boats like that can get the competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 If you bought one then you would double the racing fleet! then if you both convinced only one other person each to buy one, it would double again and so on etc, "From little acorns mighty oak trees grow" besides if there is the start of two boats regularly competing on the water together they have great sailing and comradery that alone will attract others to the class. Some one has to be the "first" to put their toe in the water. If every time a new boat was released onto the market and every one stood back and waited for some one else to make the first move, it would never happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I agree, but I am an capitalist and like to know that when I want to update, there will be a market out there to buy my boat, and it is hard to sell something not many people know about. I think the 430 is a great machine, but I would always buy a new boat that is in full production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.