shy thunder Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Well this is what happened....... Whilst racing in the "Sydney Ports Top Gun Regatta" at Kurnell on Sunday just gone... Winds approx 20 knots NE choppy Botany Slop. Me in the smallest and slowest boat in the mixed fleet ( a maricat 4.3 cat rigged). Now this is where the story gets interesting.... 2nd lap last downwind leg broad reach for me from wing mark nearing the last mark before the shy reach to finish line, watching my bows disappear every now and then as i go over thhe slop and into the next wave... last of all the fast boats now catching up with me, as they "wildthing" downwind, some with spinakers flying and me doing my best to avoid the faster traffic and also just keeping the noses from burying and what do I Hear......... "Starboard...... starboard...... star@$%@*$board" .... I look over my left shoulder and see this taipan with jib flogging heading straight for me.... "sh^&&$#@^%t" i says to myself what do I do?.... Gybe = this will put me on starboard and right of way????? or will nose dive in front of taipan..... if I make the gybe and he still hits me I could still be in ther wrong due to rule "insufficient time for him to avoid me", still a problem.... do I round up and try avoid having a head on with him.... rembering I will accelerate as I round up cutting down our room to manouever and notice he his rounding up to go behind me to avoid me..... or as I did... I stayed on course veering away slightly trying to give him as much room as posible to avoid contact etc..... Oh well sorry James, didn't see you till too late...obvious by your call of starboard on me...yes I know the rules "boats on opposite tacks....Starboard has right of way over port" But with your obvious speed advantage over me...and your ability to wildthing downwind... I don't feel it was necessary for you to have to be forcing your right of way over me..... please let commonsense rule in situations like this where a Taipan travelling at 20knots plus can do damage to property but more so could cause serious injury if it were to strike a human body first before crunching through the fibreglass.... we are not racing for sheep stations.... oh well hope you all find this informative and enlightening for both sides of the fence...and again sorry james for not appearing to take action it was a very hard call to make and this incident was one of the contributing factors for me retire for the final two races as the wind was obviously making it hard to control the boats in the conditions that were deteriorating at the time... cheers dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Hi Dave, I think the trick is to keep an eye out and anticipate what will happen further down the track, which can be easier said than done. Whilst the other boats may have a big speed advantage, this also means that if they change course ie go deep for example they loose ALLOT of ground. And if they are locked into a battle with another boat it can mean game over in that race. Also Gybing or going deep can also throw your downwind angles way out and once again you loose allot of ground. For spinnaker boats such as our T, If you knew the size of our blind spot underneath us you would be seriously concerned. Angles can change greatly with every gust and things happen so quick you need a good awareness of what is around you. Approaching (whilst under kite)a fleet of tacking boats or coming up at twice the speed on a downwind boat can be very nervous times as you do not know where the next puff will throw you. You must always have contingency plans in the back of your mind. That being said, we as like you, try to be courteous to one another and if we are not locked into a close battle or a way in front or way behind, often wave or rights and go around boats that may have more to loose. PS – I here I missed a great regatta……. Plenty of carnage too. I will be back down next weekend and every weekend looking for crew or skipper spots until I can import another Tornado. Stephen Medwell AITA President Team Tornado ALIVE www.tornadoalive.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Originally posted by shy thunder: But with your obvious speed advantage over me...and your ability to wildthing downwind... I don't feel it was necessary for you to have to be forcing your right of way over me..... please let commonsense rule in situations like this where a Taipan travelling at 20knots plus can do damage to property but more so could cause serious injury if it were to strike a human body first before crunching through the fibreglass.... we are not racing for sheep stations.... cheers dave Also just because of our speed advantage and ability to wild thing does not make it any easier to manouver the boat out of a sticky situation. Often it can be more dificult for us as we are carring allot more horsepower and have to comunicate and co-ordinate manouvers with our crew. [This message has been edited by tornado (edited 03 November 2004).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shy thunder Posted November 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Hi Steve, Yes it was a good regatta... I know you bigger boats have a big blind spot etc.... Tried to write up this incident in an entertaining an informative way to let all know of the difficulties of all whom race cats in mixed fleets.... Because of the angles that I and the Taipan were approaching the mark, it made for a very awkward crossing angle, with he at an approx.90 degree angle to my proper course and me on the rhumb line and at 150 degree to true wind, with his gybe being done, I believe too close, not that i saw him go behind me on port or saw him gybe for me to do anything with my course to get out of the way etc... maybe the onus was on him to gybe where he would miss our converging path???... no injuries... no damage?????.... but best of all we all had fun on the day.... and maybe we / all of us can learn from these writings.... cheers d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 The overtaking boat still has to give adequate time and space for a slower boat in front to "take avoiding action" and in a situation as you have described, if a collision had occured, then he would not have made adequate provision to avoid a collision (the prime rule for all sailing craft - to avoid a collision at all reasonable cost). In a protest room the decision, in the case of a down wind collision, between boats of dramatically different speed potentual, does not necessarily go to the boat on starboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JC-Taipan Posted November 5, 2004 Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 Hi Dave As the boat in question, I have to agree with Steve that anticipation is needed by all boats on the course. Especially with cats as there is a huge speed and gybe angle difference between the Tornado with a kite and the Maricat 4.3. Starboard was called by me at the time for a multitude of reasons. I don't believe you had seen us until I hailed. Also we were on starboard. By hailing you were at least aware of our position on the course and allows me a little bit of time to see how you react. At that stage in the race we were racing for position with another Taipan (didn't catch him unfortunately). When we saw that you didn't have time to take avoiding action the crew dumped the jib and we went above you allowing you to remain on your course. I don't believe I said any $*^% whilst sailing past as I was concentrating hard on keeping the hulls above water. Do have to say that downwind angles of a Taipan and a Maricat are very different so getting you to gybe would still have put you in the way. So in hindsight wouldn't have been too good getting you to gybe. No hard feelings about it at all. Always better to aviod a collision rather than getting worked up about the rules. JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REV YUKKA II Posted November 5, 2004 Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 we have the same problems with even slower boats like laser's. but at the end of the day i still think that if you are in the faster boat you need to look well ahead and asume that the slower boats you are overtaking will not be looking behind them so as they can get out of our way. but will be looking forward and trying to race there race. all because we race the bigger boats it dosen't mean that we are the only one who are competitive out there. and at the end of the day the time you loose to this race whilst getting around a back marker, your competitor will loose next race in a simular situation. REV YUKKA II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted November 5, 2004 Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 There is the old stadby call in a position like that of shouting (loudly with authority) DOWN!! DOWN!! It may not be an actual legitimate call, BUT, by the time the boat that is being called has got over their surprise and realised that they have been "duped", the danger has usually passed, (can you imagine someone in a protest room saying "he called DOWN, and I don't think that he was being very fair!" they would have to really feel a little silly?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted November 5, 2004 Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 The rule does state, the overtaking boat must give way at all times. Also, if you are on a boat going twice the speed of another, it is up to you to make sure you do not place your boat in a possible collision situation at all costs. In other words, If you are flying downwind with the kite up in 20 knots and there is a Manly Junior up ahead, on any tack, you have to make sure that you do not put yourself in a collision situation. He or she is not expecting a 20 foot catamaran to ram up their ass. They are only trying to beat the other Manly Juniors. Also, it is a sport. Gentlemans rules should also apply. I know some people out there love throwing the rule book around, but it never hurts too much to avoid a collision, and if the other guy doesn't see you for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shy thunder Posted November 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 jc, invective invented for colouring of story only......more entertaining to the reader... no malice intended...like i said we all had fun on the day.... like I said I didn't even know you were there until you called... let all know of the perils of mixed fleet racing and started a line of conversation to see how we all think... buy you a bundy next time at the club... cheers d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca Posted November 5, 2004 Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 You guys need to learn that there are three rules as far as right of way is concerned:- 1. Bigger boat has right of way 2. If any boat is being sailed by anyone other than the owner of that boat, then it has right of way 3. if it is a bigger boat and is being sailed by anyone other than the owner, Stay the hell away from that boat!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted November 5, 2004 Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 As you saw, that group of Pommies sailing Spirit thought that they wouldn't give way to the Opera House. Big Boat, they were not the owners, and ended up sideways. Macca, you just say that as you sail a big fast boat that is not yours. I bags be your crew again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shy thunder Posted November 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 macca has his new crew now....just gotta wait til they grow up a bit to hang onto the jib sheet..... I likes macca's rules better....lets submit them to those further up for consideration....LOL Peter would like them too when sailing other person's Taipan he was attacked ny another boat causing some rib damage.... beware bright coloured boats!!!!!!!!! they think you see them because of their livery..... lol COME ON DEVELOP A SENSE OF HUMOUR GUYS LETS HAVE SOME FUN.......lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted November 5, 2004 Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 Macca, you forgot rule 4 Give way to red boats on the race course. Actually Stay the hell away from that boat too!! Not having a go at the smaller boats. They have a right to be on a race course too. In most cases we all show good sportsmanship and we have ducked below many Maris and Taipans when we have been on a starboard tack. We just wave them through and we duck behind. All of the big boats are aware of the slower boats on the course and we do our best to avoid them. We are forever told to watch for the smaller boats but I feel the smaller boats should also watch out for the big boats. Look a little further out past the range of other 14 footers and be aware of quicker boats shooting down the course. I have had many smaller boats tack in front of us whist we are screaming down under kite. Even if they tack onto starboard.... sometimes there is not much chance for us to avoid them. Whilst you may be able to avoid somebody in your mari in a few boat lengths (28 feet).... It may require a Tornado 4 to 6 boat lenghts (80 to 120 feet). Just something to be aware of. At the end of the day we are all mates and are out for a pleasurable sail. If there is a close call those we race with often appologizes, shake hands on the beach or buy the other a beer and all is forgiven. Remember we are racing in close quaters and we are all human. Mistakes can happen. Stephen Medwell AITA President Team Tornado ALIVE www.tornadoalive.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted November 5, 2004 Report Share Posted November 5, 2004 Emmessee, The Opera House roof was designed to look like sails. I here the crew on FT called starboard but the Opera House did not give way. Stephen Medwell AITA President Team Tornado ALIVE www.tornadoalive.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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