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Sloops at States


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Calling all Sloops. We need to build the fleet for the coming States at Toukley. Hey Zax are you sailing sloop, What about Darcy ? Any one else ? The sloop division is the perfect chance to introduce new people to sailing, either as skipper or crew. Look how well Jason went at the Nats with Darcy as crew. The States is also a great chance for novice or new sailers. There are plenty of Maricats with lots of good gear and good advise. It doesn't matter how slow you are and the rescue boat will pick you up if you break something.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Darcy will be using the jib from ZAX at the States so the other sloops had better look out smile.gif

sorry that I will not be able to attend the State Titles at Toukley, it would be good if the Sloops can start together with the Cat rigged fleet since the Cat and Sloop rigged have the same rating. At the Nationals we were not able to do this because of concerns from the Cat fleet (scared that we sloops are too quick for them I guess)..

If there is less than 5 Sloops then this division will start with the Cat Fleet. NOR to be updated to reflect this. Am sure the Cat Fleet would not mind if the sloops join then on the start for the State Titles, this has been done previously. Points should be calculated separately and the winner of the sloop division would be considered the State Champion Sloop.

Hopefully the Sloop Class will continue to grow and introduce the younger generation to Maricats... first as crew then as skipper. Or with Darcy they start as skipper !

The association should be encouraging this !

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Sloops are not the same rating as cat rigged boats. Sloops are 92 while cats are 94. Sloops have had the same rating for years.

I object to sloops starting with the cats simply because they are faster and have more sail area. The cat division is now very competitive with very close racing. Any interference, however small, at the start or during the race can reduce a boats chances.

If the number of sloops is not sufficient to constitute a championship event then why should they start and race amongst boats that are competing for a championship?

They should start in their own division! If they are to start in another division then clearly it should be the super sloops. They have a faster rating (87.5) and have the same sail area. They would not be under the same disadvantage as cat rigged boats. I am sure the super sloop skippers would not have the same objections and would welcome them with open arms.

If they do start in another division the length of the start line should reflect the increase in numbers.

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Good point.

I think the sloops would end up in the supersloop division at any rate since the NOR is worded that a fleet with less than 5 boats would race in the next smallest fleet. With the cat fleet on the grow the next smallest fleet may be the Super Sloops ?

Will change the NOR to have the Sloops start with the Supersloops if less than 5 boats. I guess it is better also because the sloops and supersloops should be similiar speed out of the start and pointing ability should also be similiar until the Supersloops get on the trap.

Glad you acknowledge that the Sloops are faster than cats smile.gif I am new to the sloop fleet and had not realised the ratings were different between sloop and cat, apologies on the error.

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Which yardstick system are you referring to?

I oversee the Koonawarra Bay Yardsticks which are used at the Koonawarra Bay 14ft Cat Regatta and we have both the Cat Rig and Sloop Rig rated at 94, with the Super Sloop on 90.

These yardsticks have proven to be very reliable over many years, but we are always interested in feedback. There haven't been many Mari Super Sloops compete at our regatta over the years, but there has usually been a handful of sloop and cat rig Maricats competing most years.

I am interested in keeping our yardsticks up to date and accurate, so any feedback is appreciated.

Dave Stumbles

Koonawarra Bay SC.

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As I recall, cats and sloops were always off the same YS with the additional sail area of the jib being negated by the extra crew. When I raced the cats were usually faster than the sloops over most courses.

While we're talking y/sticks, what are the yardsticks for the new foam Maricat?

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 27 March 2006).]

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Well well well! someone is finaly on the same wave-lenght as me for a change. This is why we need to bring in a minimum skipper weigtht. Peter and I have had many discusions about it and we will be putting a motion forward stating that the minium skipper weight be 85kg for the foam sandwich boats.

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The minimum weight for a foam sandwich boat is the same as the minimum weight for the older maricats which is 95kg fully rigged.

There will be 1 foam sandwich maricat attending the State Titles at Toukley since I will not be going. That boat is over the minimum of 95kgs. Mine is under but I carry lead weights to bring it up to weight.

The new boats are better, and hopefully over time more people will buy them. If new maricats were not made better why would you buy one? Would make more sense to buy a new windrush which are improved. You would notice there is also no difference in yardstick between an old windrush and a new one or an old hobie and a new one.

Berny, do you think the yardstick for the new maricats is wrong? Do you usually beat maricats on yardstick at other regattas? this is the first time I have seen your boat so I don't know. In the stronger winds there did not seem much difference in outright speed between your 430 and the other quick 14s. The older mari's also go quick in these conditions. Mike, Pete and others would have also been up there in those conditions on the old mari.

I guess it should be noted that Darcy sailed an old maricat at the weekend regatta and finished 2nd on yardstick.

If the maricat yardsticks are wrong in general then I guess it should be discussed. Against the paper tigers they seem reasonable. Maybe the 430 yardstick needs adjustment? In the lighter winds on Sunday you blitzed us. Fortunately there were 3 races in moderate wind and only 2 in lighter winds.

It was good to see you and see your boat on the weekend, hope to see more of you at other regatta's. The 430 looks great !

Has Pete got himself a maricat yet ?

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Pete?

The yardsticks have been created over time and are pretty good. If the new Mari is a better boat then it's yardstick needs to be adjusted when it's competing on yardstick. Either that or it should carry the weights to race on the standard yardstick.

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The new foam maricats are class legal and as such are entitled to race on the same yardstick as the older boats. ZAX was carrying weights on the weekend to bring it up to 95kg the same as for association events. Was actually quite a bit over weight on Sunday after 2 collisions and a lot of water taken on. In club racing we use handicaps so it does not matter what the configuration of the boat is. My own weight is 97kg (the skipper) so not exactly a fly weight by any standards.

New boats built and the other foam sandwich maricat on the water are built to the minimum weight and as such are stronger and stiffer than ZAX. Being the first to take one of the new boats means some teething problems including getting the weight/strength right for myself and the great team at Brisbane Catamarans. The team at Brisbane Catamarans have no wish to upset the existing class but like to build great boats.

I have another rig for ZAX for racing in open 14 events not on yardstick which I would like to use if more F14 type boats like yours start to appear at regatta's.

All boats racing on yardstick need to be class legal, the maricats are no different. If there a boat is in question then the option is open to protest. If there is no protest then there should generally be no complaint. There was no issue raised during the regatta which would have been the appropriate time to do that. An issue was raised on the windrush yardstick and resolved on the spot by the event organiser.

The new windrushes are also a better boat and have no difference in yarstick from the old ones. The question on that was raised on a previous forum and answered by Dave from Koonawarra as to why the yardstick should not change. It is also not so hard to make an old mari go fast as you would know given your history on maricats. Sweet16 is one of the oldest maris on the water and it is quick, as is humungus.

I do appreciate that you are only asking questions here about the new maricat though.

Pete is Peter Breaden. The question was for Pete or Mick. Hope that Pete has got himself a maricat now.

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Well, the new boats are lighter than most other old maricats because mostly the older maricats are over the minimum weight. When you do find a lighter old maricat they tend to be weaker. that was my reason for shifting from Sweet16 to a new boat. I did not think that the older maricat was strong enough to handle a kite for Retro F14 racing. the new one certainly is strong enough. It is nice to be able to feel confident that the boat is not going to fall apart in moderate to heavy winds as happened to Wayne at the Port Maquarie Nationals... I suspect that is also his main reason for purchasing a new boat.

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It'd be my guess that Wayne's boat fell apart because it was OLD! I do a few repairs on 14's and many of the old ones are delaminated in stress areas.

You sail your boat well. You got hit on the w/end? Much damage?

You are right about the 430 in stronger winds. My excuse is that we seldom get anything above 15k at CRSC and I don't have the experience in setting the boat up well for those condidions. I'm still sorting rotation particularly.

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I was hit twice on Sunday. The first one was my own fault, I had tacked onto Port after the start in a place I had thought was well to leward of the other boats and sat there in irons waiting for a gap. Unfortunately the wind shifted a little and brought a boat down onto me. That damaged the front end. Sailed off found a nice clear piece of water to do my penalty turn, then quite a bit back in the fleet was hit by a boat on Port amidships quite hard. The skipper was looking at his rudders rather than out the front... called him alot (some things not pleasant)... but was still rammed.

Boat is in being repaired now. Should be back on the water soon.

Thought I may be in the running for the maricat damage award... but was beaten to that by Brentan on Sweet16. The deck lifted from the hull on that one. Sweet16 is also being repaired now and should be on the water again before the Easter State Titles.

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I have an Adams carbon squaretop main which is cut larger, there is a picture on the forum here of it posted some time back. There is a larger carbon jib to suit and Spinnaker which makes up the rest of allowable sail area. With the main only it is significantly faster than a standard maricat 4.3 I would rate it similiar to a fast supersloop with just the main and that was the intended yardstick for it in that configuration without trapese. I set it up that way in the first Mannering Park 14 regatta also sailing it in the stronger winds that caused the cancellation of the first days racing.

I had intended to go and have a run with Daryl with that setup.... but after seeing his boat in action have changed my mind, it is in another league altogether and I would have been wasting his time.

Still, it is a fun setup and easier to handle in stronger winds than the standard maricat. unless the kite is used, then it is more challenging.

There was some interest to bring the squaretop main into the maricat fleet as a new class to suit those heavier sailors out there - including myself. Still may happen.

There was also some interest in the kite - but seems everything is on hold for the moment while we wait on Mikes proposal to only allow foam boats for heavy guys over 85kg. Probably kites would only be allowed for those over 95kg smile.gif

If you have not guessed, I am against the proposal to limit the new boats to heavy people - even though I am heavy myself.

I prefer to see crew weight dropped altogther for the youth to help encourage more to the fleet and definately not make their chance of sailing a new boat nil by increasing the minimum skipper weight.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Darcy I said the yard stick for sloops was 92 not 90 as you suggested. This yard stick is taken from VYC yardsticks as posted on the web. When the good sloop sailors like Tony Zahra and Bob Simpson etc sailed you could see the difference in the overall speed of both boats, especially on the reach. VYC yardsticks are generally accepted throughout Australia. Some local clubs have their own yardsticks but by their very nature are limited in the variety of skippers that sail at their club. I sometimes think a local yardstick is really a local handicap.

(Sorry for the dealy in answering as I was working in the bush and had no access to the chat line)

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