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fulltilt
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VYC just correlate the results if they have them sent to them.

You would have to talk to them and explain that you want a separate class for the foamies and them send them your results.

I think the various class associations will have a problem with that as has happened with the maricats. Until there are enough foamies about they end up racing against 1 or 2 others and are not happy.

Why would you spend $7-8k on a new boat just to be beaten by a $1k.

The windies have a few more foamies so it may work for your class.

Cheers Al

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There has been long and involved discussion about this. The Maricat Assoc of NSW has made a number of adjustments to its class rules. An increasing number of regattas (particularly 14ft regattas) are using Koonawarra Bay yardsticks which are actively monitored and adjusted. Also look at the yardstick modifications to be used by Mannering Park.

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Hi,

I have allways believed that the VYC yardsticks were to differentiate between different classes, to enable a sailor on ,say, an Arafura,to be competetive,

(on Y/S), with, say a Paper Tiger.

The difference between individual sailors

ability,on the same type of boat,is the handicap, and it is the club handicapper who makes these decisions. The VYC Yardstick is only as good as the information passed on to the VYC.

This discussion has been around, bandied back and forth, between many very good sailors, on all types of sailing boats, and will allways be a bone of contention.

I have admired the work that club handicappers,officials,and others do.

pete smile.gif

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And I guess the long and involved discussion will keep on going while we have inequity in the system.

Yes Koonawarra's yardstick is up to date and certainly better than VYC, but still does not address the issue of major weight differences within what is supposed to be the same class.

It is common that the leaders of all democratic countries, societies, states, organizations, families and even sailing associations will argue that the rules are fair while the advantage remains with those in power, or if the rules do not affect them. If the advantage gets lost then they will change the rules in order to maintain their position.

It takes more than producing an old boat the modern way to keep a class alive, which I guess is why the older 14ft designs are slowly losing ground to other classes.

They struggle to sell new old design 14ft cats, yet on the other hand new design 14fts cannot be built quick enough to satisfy demand.

Nostalgia could lead you to buy a 30 something year old design boat (because you sailed one when you were younger) but how many people will spend that money for old times sake when you can buy a current design 14ft for not a lot more whose class will not be reliant on nostalgia to stay alive

I hope that the classes do not dwindle away, but I have trouble seeing a future for them.

We struggle to get younger people interested in sailing without disadvantaging them when they do by giving the starting line so much bias.

This is general comment and not meant to be offensive in any way to anybody.

If we are going to discuss this again lets keep it on topic and impersonal.

We can all learn from others points of view even me.

Al Richards

TBSC

Maricat 4.3 Cat-Chi (still for sale)

Maricat 5.0 no name as yet

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Hi AL,

re your comment about struggling to sell "new, old design" cats. It ain't a "struggle", they are selling like proverbial "hot cakes", (EG foam Maricats).

The people who want one ,will buy one.

pete smile.gif

PS.

This thread started out being about yardsticks, we seem to have lost the thread.

pete smile.gif

[This message has been edited by xmatelot (edited 25 September 2007).]

[This message has been edited by xmatelot (edited 25 September 2007).]

[This message has been edited by xmatelot (edited 25 September 2007).]

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Pete

At an estimate how many Mari's v how many say Nacra 4.5s.?

Of course people who want one will buy one, but my point is how many of them are there apart from those buying for nostalgia. Nostalgia won't keep a class alive if that is all there is.

The thread is still about whether a separate yardstick should be created to keep the class alive.

Phil

Your point is valid, but how much further ahead would you be on a $8k boat. Your ability is your ability and that should not be hindered because you do not want to spend more money.

Al

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The foamies are a different boat, (I recently sailed one and there is no comparison.), at the Mannering Park 14' regatta the will start with 1 min less YS for foam, and we will work from there with the race results. I personally think the diff is more like 3-4 min but we will let the results tell, we will post results so that interested associations and clubs can act as they see fit in the aim of keeping the classes alive. Where did the 8k price tag come from,closer to 10k with Trlr , beach wheels and S/box.

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Originally posted by fulltilt:

Just inquiring as to whether a new yardstick is being created for foamies, being 20kgs lighter.It must be hard for the guys with older boats to be competitive.[/quote14ft cats are the entry point into cat sailing so y/sticks are important & must be fair for all sailors irrespective to sailing ability just take app 20% from the basic hull weight and change nothing else does wonders for small cat sailing well done the maricat assoc dropped the ball (must support port adelaide)

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Originally posted by stb-tack:

VYC just correlate the results if they have them sent to them.

You would have to talk to them and explain that you want a separate class for the foamies and them send them your results.

I think the various class associations will have a problem with that as has happened with the maricats. Until there are enough foamies about they end up racing against 1 or 2 others and are not happy.

Why would you spend $7-8k on a new boat just to be beaten by a $1k.

The windies have a few more foamies so it may work for your class.

Cheers Al

windies are app 50% foam and non foam the foamsandwich ones are superior no doubt a windy built 25 years ago strip the rear locker with a stanley knife new sail 5 to 8 kgs heavier use the old cut dacron sail windrush class rules allow 2 mins on y/stick food 4 thought
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Ok, once again we have the foam v non foam debate. How many times are we going to cover this?

In relation to the point fulltilt made about the foam windies being superior to a non foam boat. I state this...

The last windy states at mannering park were won by a non foam boat. Equal ability sailors in 1st and 2nd. 2nd place was on a less than 1yr old boat. You tell me what difference a foam makes?

They "walk" less, a factor of age not construction. They "flex" less, only an advantage in choppy water and +18knts.

And this brings in the whole debate of aging fleets and modernisation of fleets to avoid extinction.

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Hi smile.gif,

some boats have several "classes".

Juniors,Novices, Class,Masters,PastMasters,

etc,etc.

Maybe we should introduce a new class.

smile.gif "WHINGERS" smile.gif

With a NEW Yardstick, their handicap would be "OLD HEAVY BOAT" smile.gif

pete smile.gifsmile.gif

[This message has been edited by xmatelot (edited 03 October 2007).]

[This message has been edited by xmatelot (edited 03 October 2007).]

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Actually, with Paper Tigers the age doesn't really matter. The 2006 Internationals held at Elwood in Melbourne were won by a ply boat that was pretty much on weight and was about 23 years old. The 2007 Internationals held in New Plymouth, New Zealand, were won by a three year old foam sandwich boat.

Many well built plywood Paper Tigers remain on weight, assuming they are looked after. Foam sandwich ones remain on weight.

We don't have the issue of foam versus ply. They all have the same minimum weight they have to comply to and each is equally competitive. It's the sailor that makes the difference.

Regards,

Dave.

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Originally posted by xmatelot:

New boat. Class minimum weight.

Old boat,was class minimum weight,maybe 20 years ago.

This happens in most classes, most sailors accept it.

Hobie,Windrush,Maricat,Nacra,Calypso,

Arrow,A-Class,AlphaOmega,Cobra,Mosquito,

Paper Tiger,Taipan.Tornado,Yvonne,

just to name a few.

pete smile.gif

not really a paper tiger 20 yrs on will weigh the same as a 20 day new one a windy 27 yrs old weighs 3kgs above min weight have you a point here ?
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Hi,

The only point that is relevant is that all boats ,when new, must meet the class rules re-minimum weight.That is the rule.

Most boats ,if well maintained will be very close to that weight after some years.

Unfortunately, some ,after many years are well above that minimum weight,and some owners complain that their boats are no longer competetive, and seem to want to penalise the owners of new,class legal, minimum weight boats, (to make their own overweight boats competetive.)

This causes many arguments and heated discussion.

We could continue this forever, some people will never admit the fact that their boat is old and heavy,they will blame it on any thing but the truth.

Enough crap has been bandied back and forth, and nothing will change their attitude.

pete smile.gif

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