Bugger All, is my boat a write off?

[ashm86]

The decks on the port hull are rotten from the shroud tang to the forward bulkhead. I looked closely at the deck in other spots and picking at one with my fingers I was able to pry up plywood.... Is it a write off? If so, do you think I should go back to the guy I bought it from or am I now stuck with a hull and rigging.

andrew

[xmatelot]

hi.

TAKE IT BACK!!!!!!!

[h20melon]

Hi Andrew,

Are you able to post some photos of the rot?

You probably wont be able to return it, but most things are fixable - and if you use an epoxy resin with glue powder, the repair will be stronger than it was before.

I've done repairs where the ply has "delaminated" - ie: the ply has separated from itself. Also repairs where the ply has separated from the gunwhale as well - all are fixable.

Some photos would be very helpful.

Neil

NSWPTCA

[xmatelot]

""TAKE IT BACK""

[ashm86]

Ok, so here is the aft deck when I picked at a piece of paint that I could peel up. I know I should not have done it, but I could not resist. However, looking at it, I thought to myself "I could fix this" So I took pictured to get a good idea of what I am dealing with.

I am not to concerned about that bit of wood, however around hte forward inspection hatch, I am scared:

Sorry for the poor angles, I will try again later when I am not frustrated. But you can see around the inspection hatch, it is soft wood. It is totally spongy. I can squeeze it with the pads of my thumb and fore finger and feel it rebound to shape. It I really pushed it, I could probably pop my thumb through without too much effort(Resonator Guitar player; 15-63 strings, no picks )

However, I thought I could cut strips of ply and glued them onto the underside of the deck. I really do nto want to take the deck off at it seems like a hard job to do.

This is the area directly below the soft wood:

It seems to be in fine shape. I do not think there was enough to develop an actual running leak, but I think the paint was piss poor.

Here it is looking aft:

I think I could get away with re-enforcing the deck from the under side. Keep in mind I will NOT be racing this thing, I just want a fun boat to sail on my own that will give me a rush.

Andrew

[ashm86]

xmatelot

""TAKE IT BACK""

I do not really want to do that, I actually would rather see if I can fix it. I am not looking for a competition class boat, just something that I can knock about with with my daughters and hopefully get the older one out on her own(she's 10).

Do you think it is that much of job to fix it up? I only paid 450 Canadian dollars for it.

I figured I could make my own blades to replace the existing ones and add a traveller as it does not have one. I knew I'd be doing some work, but I figured it would be more ADDing than fixing, ya know what I mean?

Andrew

[ashm86]

H20Melon

I've done repairs where the ply has "delaminated" - ie: the ply has separated from itself. Also repairs where the ply has separated from the gunwhale as well - all are fixable.

That has happened in this spot as well, I figured I could inpregnate it with empxy and clamp it somehow. Not sure how though as the angles are odd.

Andrew

[ashm86]

Just noticed in this picture below that there is a chunk of laminated hockey stick. Stars then the NHL(National Hockey League) Emblem. I think I actually had a stick like that when I was a kid. The boat is truly Canadian

[h20melon]

Pictures tell the story, don't they.

The underneath doesn't look so bad, and it looks sealed up too.

You have 2 options here:

1. Do up the boat as per your original plans (ie: strip paint, repaint). Don't spend too much time on the deck as I would suggest to replace this at a later date. What I mean is use the boat after you repaint it, and if you do fall through the deck while sailing, then you fix it then (rather than now). You might have a bit more knowledge of what to do and how to do it.

2. Replace the deck and then do up the boat.

I can give you a quick guide if you would like of how to replace the deck (and the tools required).

Neil

[ashm86]

Neil,

Deck replacement instructions would be great. I think fo now I am going to re-enforce the back of the soft spot with some hardwood braces and replace the deck at a later date(this winter) I would really like to get out and sail before the summer is over

Andrew

[h20melon]

I agree with you Andrew,

Tools needed: A Router with a flat bottom cutting bit and a bit with a ball bearing at the end that is the same size as the cutting width, Sand paper (60 grade), a block of timber about 450mm long x 70mm wide x 15-20mm thick, a plane, hacksaw blade, Staple gun with staples, stanley knife, Pen, Paper, packaging tape, bricks, epoxy resin, hardener, and glue powder.

Materials neede: 2 Sheets of 4mm Gaboon Marine grade ply, 6 lengths 2m long Ceder around 20mmx20mm.

Steps to replace the deck:

1. Remove inspection ports.

2. Measure the thickness of the deck ply. Most likely it is 4 or 5 mm. If a reading at the inspection ports isn't accurate, drill or punch a hole somewhere else in the deck (usually infront of the main beam).

3. Put the flat bottom router bit in the router and set it to a depth no more than

3.5mm for a 4mm ply, or 4.5mm for a 5mm ply. This is very important not to go to the full 4/5mm depth just incase there is some variation in the ply.

4. Using the router, route around the outer edge of the deck above the gunwale. ie: the router is flat on the deck (NOT 90 degrees to it). Don't worry about any nails, the router will go through them. You will also have to router over the beam pads, and the centreboard case too. Take your time at this.

Is the steel that I can see in the photos the beam pads? be VERY carefull here.

5. if the deck hasn't come loose, using a hacksaw blade, cut around the inside edge of the gunwale loosen the deck from the hull.

6. Once the deck is off, the hull may be prone to twisting length ways. To solve this see the photos from my building a PT http://photos.papertigercatamaran.org I used about 4 lengths of angle and screwed it to the gunwale with both hulls adjacent. This will keep the decklines level.

7. Now you need to get rid of the last 0.5mm of the deck and the old glue. This step requires a bit of hard labour (yes sanding). The safest way is with the length of timber staple/tack a width of 60 grade sand paper to one end about 50mm wide. If you are starting at the transom, then staple another piece so that you can sand both gunwales at the same time. (I hope you understand - writing is harder than pictures).

Sand both gunwales (even pressure on both sides) on both hulls, by working your way up from the transom. you will have to renew and adjust the sandpaper as you work to the widest part of the hull.

7. While the deck is off, inspect the rest of the hull. Is there any more cracking/rot anywhere? Now is the time to fix it.

Now is also the time to look at putting some extra support under the deck by running some stringers along (the ceder above in the materials list). According to the plans, 2 stringers run from the main beam to the rear beam - one on each side of the centreboard case. A stringer is good from the main beam to the front (usually to a beam next to the front chainplate). This is all I have in my boat for the deck. These stringers also need to be leveled to deck level - they may be slightly higher than the deck.

These stringers also need to be sealed from water using a 2 pac sealer.

8. Now to markup and cut ply. I'll have to look up the cutting diagram for this. Draw a diagram of the deck on paper. At approx 600mm intervals starting from the transom, measure the width from outside gunwale to outside gunwale add approx 40-50mm to these measurements. Transfer this information onto the ply. The grain should run side to side. You will notice that that you should have 3 full 1200 pieces and 1 small piece.

To cut these pieces out, using a straightedge and a stanley knife, score along the cut (as deep as you can). Turn the ply over and repeat (might have to re-mark). You now should be able to snap the ply to break it along the cuts. Make sure you lable them as you go.

9. Once you have all pieces cut out now is the time to scarf the edges. I'm not going into this, but refer to http://www.naese.com/scarfing.htm .

10. To join the ply together. Many ways to do this. One is to do this on the boat as you glue each panel on, or on the floor.

On the floor: make sure you have plenty of room. Run several strips of packaging tape on the floor where the joins will be, ie: middle of the tape should be at 1200mm intervals. This is to stop the ply from sticking to the floor. Wrap bricks with the tape too. Using the resin and glue powder, simply apply the glue to the scarfs and join them together on the floor - making sure they are square. Use the bricks apply weight.

11. Seal one side of the ply with sealer.

12. Attaching the deck to the hull. basics is to apply glue to the gunwale, beam pads, centreboard case, stringers, transom, etc, and then sit the deck on the hulls. Need to make sure the hulls are not twisted. Once satisfied, start stapling along everywhere to make sure the deck sticks. You don't want the staples going right in (so it's easier to get out later). Alternative is to use small nails and small pieces of ply - nail into the small piece, then into the deck.

13. Once glue has set, using the router with the ball bearing on it, run the router around the outside of the hull to trim it. Also can drill a hole in the top of the centreboard case, and router around it as well.

14. seal the top of the deck, then paint.

That's the basics. I haven't gone into detail, for example: cutting around the hiking rail.

I hope this gives you some idea of what needs to be done, and time needed.

Neil

[This message has been edited by h20melon (edited 21 May 2007).]

[Emmessee]

I have sailed many classes in my time. Some great. Some not so good. All a great experience. I had a Moth that was a writeoff. I stuck with it as a 12 year old and won a school championship. I had a 15 year old sail and a 20 year old boat. It was a scow and all the winners before me were skiffs. I should have sunk but I didn't and won. I still love that experience. I got a Nacra 5.8 and was told I was too young to sail it. 1985. Sail # 628. My dad had no idea how to sail. I had a bit of an idea. We did OK. I colour co-ordinated all the ropes so he could follow what was going on. Came 9th in the Nationals. 2nd in the States. The following year we won the states. Not through skill. Just Passion. We were consinstant and went to all the regattas.

I am not a great sailor. Not even good. But I love the sport and will always love it. I have just sold a Nacra 4.5 to a great man up the north coast of NSW. He will love it. My loss. At the moment we are without a workable kitchen so I have sold the boat to finish off the project. Macca..... We are PREGNENT..... well she is. I helped. On to the Paper Tiger thread... I love seeing someone want to resurect a dead boat to sail just as fun.

I may be out there and talking crap.... but there is a passion that I see in this thread and I love that a guy in Canada is doing his best to get a Paper Tiger sailing this summer.

Thank you

[This message has been edited by Emmessee (edited 22 May 2007).]

[Dave]

I agree. While I love to see PTs being raced, just seeing someone getting into restoring a boat that might've ended up on the scrap heap is great stuff. And that goes for any class of boat.

One of the great things about sailing is the amazing number of different forms it can take. Almost anyone can find a niche that suits them, from pottering around on a tiny dinghy in a pond or lake right through to racing grand prix yachts around the globe.

And preparing the equipment to use can be a great part of the whole experience, and is both educational and rewarding.

Stick at it. You will get far more out of it than you put in.

Dave.

[ashm86]

I spent another 2 hours of sanding the starboard deck and hull. I went down to 100 grit sandpaper and it went nicely with no stripper needed. I am not going to bare wood. The hulls seem pretty good. I found a spot in the deck by the inspection port where the deck had separated from the hulls. I plan to inject this area with epoxy and clamp it some how. I have to figure out a way to get a clamp to fasten to the deck side and the underside of the gunwale which is angled.

[h20melon]

Andrew,

Your plan is correct. Using Epoxy with Glue Powder should be used. try and clean out the crack first to get rid of any rot and rubbish. A blade or similar us suiltable.

To clamp has 2 options: Buy some small G-Clamps. Place a small piece of ply above (on the deck) and below (under the gunwale) and clamp together.

The other option is some peg type clamp (I can't think of the name at the moment). These look V shaped (like a clothes peg), and do the same as above.

You don't need too much pressure. If you don't think clamps will hold, usually sit the hull upright and place a few bricks on top of the cracks to put pressure on it.

To inject the epoxy into the crack, I made a runny amount of glue (epoxy and glue powder) and put it into a syring (without the needle) and squirted it in. This seems more effective than trying to push it in.

Neil

[ashm86]

Hi Neil,

I cleaned out the area with compressed air and had a good look at it. You can separate the layers of plywood for about a 1 inch section. If I impregnate this area with epoxy/powdered glue and place weights on top of the deck to hold it together, will this bring the wood back to original structural strength?

I am stopping off at West Marine on my way home tonight to pick up epoxy filler and glue. Can use this same filler to fill the low spots where the paint has chipped down to the wood? Or should I use fairing compound for something like that?

I got the bow of the one hull super smooth with no high spots anymore, but there are a few low ones that need to be filled and sanded.

I am actually quite enjoying the work. I am an IT professional(Domino/Websphere solutions architect) so in my daily work, I do not see much physical result of long hours. However, even after just a few hours of working on the boat, I can see an if not improvement, then at least progress

I am in the process of getting sails from whirlwindsails.com: a new square topped main and a hooter. I think with this rig, I should be able to fly a hull. That is all I really care about, I want to be able to fly a hull and have some fun

Andrew

[ashm86]

Emmessee

Macca..... We are PREGNENT..... well she is. I helped.

CONGRATS!!!!

You'll get a helper for your next boat My 10 year old and 6 year old are both chomping at the bit to help me paint the hulls. They both keep telling me to hurry up with the sanding so they can choose paint colours(I said NO PINK). My eldest thinks it should be orange hulls with black random tiger stripes. I would like to paint something funky just to be different, but tiger stripes is a bit much for me....

Andrew

ANdrew

[h20melon]

Originally posted by ashm86:

Hi Neil,

I cleaned out the area with compressed air and had a good look at it. You can separate the layers of plywood for about a 1 inch section. If I impregnate this area with epoxy/powdered glue and place weights on top of the deck to hold it together, will this bring the wood back to original structural strength?

Yes it will. Infact the glue is stronger than the ply (found out through some testing of joints - the ply broke and the glue joint held together).

I am stopping off at West Marine on my way home tonight to pick up epoxy filler and glue. Can use this same filler to fill the low spots where the paint has chipped down to the wood? Or should I use fairing compound for something like that?

filler and epoxy will do the job fine. I think a fairing compound is pretty much the same thing. According to the HT9000 system that I use, a filler is mixed at a ratio of 1:1.5 and fairing is mixed at 1:3 (of epoxy to powder by volume).

I got the bow of the one hull super smooth with no high spots anymore, but there are a few low ones that need to be filled and sanded.

I am actually quite enjoying the work. I am an IT professional(Domino/Websphere solutions architect) so in my daily work, I do not see much physical result of long hours. However, even after just a few hours of working on the boat, I can see an if not improvement, then at least progress

I'm pretty much in the same situation for work and don't get the same exersise at work as I use to and it's great to get the body and mind working again outside work.

Have fun