TornadoSport260 Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I agree with Tony. Trying to turn a 14ft cat into something it shouldn't be is stupid. I don't think we should be aiming to make a Windrush faster than it is around a course. I think if we were to do updates it should be aimed at easy of use and pleasure to sail. The carbon tip or full carbon mast will help in heavy weather sailing, allowing the head of the sail to be more easily depowered and also the reduced weight will help stop pitchpoling. The wider rear beam makes a Windrush track SIGNIFICANTLY better to windward. Its been proven. A less complicated rudder system just makes sailing it nicer (no fighting rudders to get them down..., o what a heavenly day that would be...) And the I-Beam traveller would allow us to have a functional traveller that didnt require magilla gorilla to adjust when under full load... I remember the traveller on the T. I got a brand new fredriksen traveller (upmarket ronstan brand thats almost extinct). Under full load on a 8:1 or 10:1 system (cant remember) i could adjust traveller like it had NO and I mean NO load on it! The updates above come from my personal experience sailing. Just to share how sailing many different boats competitively has changed the way I setup a boat and sail a boat I'll let you in on my thought processes. If you look at my boat I have not gone outside the box too much, but I've taken ideas from the different boats i've sailed. My downhaul arrangement is from the Tornado and it aims to keep the deck clean but have the right lines where they are needed, when they are needed. The idea of adjustable jib downhaul comes from my time sailing Yachts, dinghys and Tornado's, its propose is so that you can change the luff tension according to the breeze strength (thing the downhaul on your main). The idea of the jib rope 'following' you out onto trap by having a ring tied to the trap elastic is from John Van Megan (ex Windrush sailor), its so that you dont have the lean in from wire and give up the extra righting moment. The reasoning behind my trapeze being set so low comes from Hobie 16's and being coached by guys like Bundock (think of mechanical levers from your days of school science). The trampoline I just had made incorporates a pocket (something I loved having on the T) and offset hiking straps (Marko's idea and I love it) and it was made by one of the best guys you'll find around who also happens to make the worlds best Tornado trampolines (Marko). The pocket is a convenience thing, the offset hiking straps is for hiking on reaches, it just makes it easier to get back in and more comfortable. My conduit tiller is courtesy of Dad and having also snapped aluminium tillers at a rate of one every 3-4weeks while training 4days aweek on the Hobie 16 (if you only have half a tiller, you can only go 1/4 the speed you need to). I also sail with 40mm top and bottom mainsheet blocks & 6mm rope, this just runs through the blocks easier and quicker (though it does hurt my hands...). The easier it runs and the quicker it runs means I can play mainsheet easier and faster on reaches and also react to nosedives faster. As for things I do on a boat that make my sailing different. If I find that someone is sailing faster than me upwind I tend to get frustrated and I sail even slower, BUT once I start to feel frustrated I do an odd thing that I've not heard someone else do. I stare at the windward rudder... (I first check if there is anyone close I need to avoid though) Once staring at the rudder I use only 2 means of input (for my thought processes) to make the boat sail, sound and feel. Yes its odd but I litterally just tune out everything but sound and feel from my thought processes. I listen to the boat, if it sounds quiet then it is slow so i bearaway or sheet on and then listen to how the boat reacted to that change. I also use sound to determine gusts coming and the strength of them, I then use feel to determine how far up I need to point the boat to stop it heeling too much and when to start bearing away in the gust. I also use my feet/legs like a suspension bush in your car, I use them to absorb the vibrations from the boat, from that I can tell if the boat is in a 'groove'. I'm looking for the boat to be slightly heeled with a hull just skimming the water and the bows just high enough off the water that it isn't chopping the tops of waves off. If it is in this groove then the boat can chop the top of a wave off and it does bugger all to effect its speed. After sailing the PT states I have changed the way I sheet on a reach (the boat I borrowed have central sheeting from the tramp, but i just grabbed it above that block and sheeted off the boom. I now use a more outstretched arm and swing through a bigger arch, hence allowing greater variation of sheet tension. (Means more control and quicker control in case of a nosedive etc.) I also try to avoid fast or sudden changes in rudder movement, this comes from sailing Lasers where the slightest input has a dramatic effect on the momentum of the boat. On starts, your jib is your next biggest control after your rudders. I learnt this training in dinghys. We were made to sail a small triangle without a rudder one day. Impossible is what we all told our coach, we thought he was barking mad. BUT to his credit its possible, not easy but possible. Next time your on the water try it. You start almost head to wind (slightly above your closehauled course). Sheet the jib on hard first, this should bring the bows down away from the breeze. You then use the mainsail to control how far away from the breeze the bows point (sheet to much on with the main and you'll be in irons). Now translate the lesson in boat control you learn trying to sail without rudders and think of a start line. Say you are holding your position almost head to wind and you want to bear away to get speed up in the last 7-8secs. The first thing I reach for is the jib sheet to pull it on. This slowly brings the bow down and then allows the rudders to get some flow without stalling. You then sheet on main and because the rudders have flow they stop the boat rounding up. Bam and away you go. Note: at no point in that bear away (albeit theoretical) did I use rudder input I just held them straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Hey guys, interesting discussion... so OK, IMHO the thing is that catamaran sailing is now competing with more and 'easier' activities like kite-surfing and the windsurfing boom definitely had an impact on cats... The basic 14ft design is good - and is the most 'user-friendly' size out there - and this is what needs to be promoted - ease of use, ease of storage, eae of sailing. FUN, FUN, FUN... This is exactly how the Hobie 14 was promoted - and why it literally 'took off'... It's dangerous to get too 'hi-tech' - as this leads to spiralling costs and makes it seem 'too hard' to get into... I think the current iteration of the Windrush 14 and Maricat is just about right... good sails and rigging, correct weight etc... The thing is, there needs to be more 'events' scheduled, instead of straight-out racing - 'fun' events where beginners can be catered for - hull-flying comps, drag races over a simple course - in order to make it just as much 'fun' as serious... Eventually, everyone wants to get serious and race - but to get new sailors on boats, it has to be perceived as 'fun' and 'easy' - similar to kite-surfing... OK, we also need some help from the manufacturers and associations here - and an acknowledgement that the 14s are dwindling due to little or NO promotion... Now as far as my poor performance at the states is concerned - it's ALL my fault - I will NEVER again attempt to sail without getting on trapeze, or 'down-grading' to cat-rigged in winds gusting to over 23 knots (I checked the weather for the area after the event)... and the waves/chop was pretty intimidating for a gutless wonder like me who hasn't been on trapeze for over 3 years... lol Man, I was WRECKED after that - still recovering – and it is really S_L_O_W... obviously... :( KCC will be holding a 'try sailing day' shortly - and I will have my 2 boats down there - hopefully Michael and a couple of other boarts will be flying the Windy flag with me... In the end, it's all about putting consisent effort into promoting a class - and NOT forgeting why we all got into it - coz itz FUNN – right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I agree with what you say. EXCEPT the gusting over 23knts part... I want to know when we had over 23knts on the course because i must have missed that part (geez it would have been alot of fun!). We had 20knts MAX, like absolute max. I never got below .5cm off my normal downhaul mark. if it was 23knts+ i'd be at 1.5-2cm past my mark and absolutely no foot out. Gotta be careful to not get caught out looking at weather stations that aren't in the same land effect as the course is. Ie. Kiama reads off the ocean in a Southerly, where as the lake would be around 5knts less than the ocean reading courtesy of land effect. The Airport at Wollongong recorded 20knts Max from the South on Sunday and 17 on saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Hi Mike, R U trying to make me feel better? I looked at the Seabreeze.com graphs for Illawarra the day after the regatta - it appears the readings were taken fairly close to Lake Illawarra - Bellambi Point – and anyway, I was out there longer than you - so you probably 'missed' the BIG gusts I experienced on the last leg to the finish!!! My excuse for being practically last to finish? I wanted the Lift King logo on the water as long as possible! lol OK, back to geting more 14s on the water... once again IMHO the clubs need to acknowledge that the 'grass roots' is being NEGLECTED in the hunt for more and more complexity and speed - which is certainly OK for seasoned sailors - but is not the attitude needed to get new sailors into the sport... I mean, why is the Laser (a 70's vintage boat) still so popular? One word: Simplicity And of course price comes into it - ease of storage and transportation... Now if Windrush can be persuaded to create a contemporary twin-trapeze, (solo or crewed) maximum trailering width 14 to 15 footer that had a 2-piece mast, and 'telescopic' beams that allowed the overall width to be reduced, along with kwik-disconnect rudders - then a whole new high-performance/ease of use boat might be embraced by the general public... Not tat I want to kill the W14 - but unless some new thinking is embraced, then it'll be an uphill battle to get significant new numbers of sailors involved with the 14's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Bellambi Point is up near Bulli so you could get a huge difference in the wind strength courtesy of Mt Outsley & Bulli Pass. Its about 20-25mins north of the lake. The closest would be Kiama but once again you are getting more of an ocean wind reading not a lake wind reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 OK, OK - I concede - it only felt like +20... Oh, kwik question, I had to replace the snap hook that attaches the forestay to the mast tang - (completely disfigured) – but I don't remember if the forestay hangs off the end if the large D-shackle, or it attaches through the pin itself... BTW, the next 'major' event at KCC is the Cock Of The Bay on the 27th... hope some Windys can attend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I did mention that the snap shackle was an odd choice for that area. It hung off the d shackle, so i'd replace the snap shackle with a d shackle. Cant do the 27th i'll be hung over like buggery. Mums house warming is the night of the 26th... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Hey Mike, yes I replaced the snaphook with higher rated 'swivel hook - but I'm a little perplexed as to why there is a large D-Shackle that the forestay hangs off… Y can't the forestay simply be attached to the chainplate with a ring-pin? Presently, the forestay hangs off the end of the D-Shackle - as opposed to the 'pin' of that shackle - which goes through the chainplate - but I don't recall which way is corrrect.. thru the pin, or off the end of the shackle? Sorry to hassle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iOrion Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Twin trapeze on a 14 foot might be a little over kill? With a combined crew weight of 140kg to 180kg and the deck size seems a wee bit crazy. Michael and me had hulls flying one day out at Manno, but I think that perhaps we are on the bottom end of average sailor weights and we didn't require trap either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 The manufacturer of Maricats and holder of the moulds do not even acknowledge on their website that they make and sell them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Hey guys, as a training boat for juniors (teenagers) - the W14 could conceivably be rigged for twin trapeze - as long as the combined weight is somewhere up to 120 - it's feasible. I do know of guys who have sailed W14 twin trapeze... but of course a boat of 15ft to 16ft is more appropriate. The Prindle 15 can be 'upgraded' with a jib - so the concept certainly isn't new... OK, now as far as manufacturers actively promoting a 14ft cat is concerned, Windrush are the only ones openly advertising their boat... Sure, their focus is elsewhere - so that's why we as enthusiasts need to take up the challenge to promote this class... Just like politicians, manufacturers will only get enthusiastic when they see a 'market' or a movement... Well, as the only NSW 'agent' for the W14 - I'll be seizing every opportunity to do that... Any other 'takers' for the KCC 'Cock Of The Bay' next weekend? I'm taking a break this weekend - but will be back on the water next weekend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 And I may even get out on the bloody trapeze too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iOrion Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Deck space was initially what I was thinking about. It's cramped as it is with two people on it, and could be a bit harder to shift your weight around having two people out on trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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