Andrew Nelson Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Hi Andrew, The classes that have been invited to compete in Sail Sydney include the following; -A class Catamaran -Arrow Catamaran -Calypso -Cobra -Formula 16 -Formula 18 -Maricat -Mosquito -Nacra -Prindle -Stingray -Sundance -Hobie cat -Tornado If you feel their are any cats missing within this list please do not hesitate to let me know. We are trying to get as many different types of boats competing as possible as we are trying to showcase as many boats as possible. Below is the email with the information regarding Sail Sydney. Thanks for all your help Kind Regards Kaitlyn Middleton Dear Class President, Sail Sydney has historically been a regatta for Olympic and International Youth Classes. The event has grown considerably over the years and usually attracts 250+ boats from approximately 30 countries and is one of only eight ISAF Grade 1 events. This year the event will run from 1st- 4th November due to the timing of the Perth World Sailing Championships. While this format has proved successful, Yachting NSW realises that it is not truly representative of the diverse nature of classes raced across the state. To respond to this, we will be hosting a second, considerably larger event in December and would like to invite your class to participate. Olympic and Youth classes will still be a component of Sail Sydney, but we are actively encouraging participation from all centreboard classes- dinghies, skiffs, boards and catamarans. We have moved the dates back a week from those originally circulated to avoid school and university commitments and hopefully attract more entrants. Due to the expected scale of the event, our intention is to run the regatta at the following locations: Pittwater Catamarans and Boards Fri 16th- Sun 18th Dec Sydney Harbour Skiffs and Youth classes Fri 16th- Sun 18th Dec Botany Bay Olympic Classes Thurs 15th- Sun 18th Dec We aim to showcase sailing via this event and hopefully over time it will grow to be the biggest dinghy regatta in Australia. We would also be interested in incorporating your State or other class Championships into this event. We want your class to be a part of this regatta. If you would like more information, please email Daniel Williams at: Daniel.Williams@nsw.yachting.org.au In the return email, please state your class, fleet numbers you would expect may be interested, contact person with contact details. Yachting NSW Ph: +61 (0)2 8116 9800 Fax: +61 (0)2 8732 1623 www.yachtingnsw.com.au Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Sent to: Daniel.Williams@nsw.yachting.org.au Hi Daniel I read a list of classes invited to compete at the Sail Sydney / Sydney International Regatta, at: http://catsailor.net/forums/showthread.php?4089-Sydney-International-Regatta Please would you include the Paper Tiger Catamaran? I am delighted to see that Yachting NSW is running an event for non-Olympic classes, and would very much like the opportunity to compete. Based on the number of boats entering recent State or National Titles, I would argue that the Paper Tiger catamaran is the most popular small catamaran sailed in Australia. Our class website: http://www.papertigercatamaran.org/ NSW Paper Tiger Catamaran Association website: http://nswptca.papertigercatamaran.org/ Would you please send me the Notice of Race and Entry Form when they are ready? Regards, Tony Hastings NSW PTCA Publicity Officer (etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 PS: when should we tell him about the Koonawarra vs YV yardstick issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just One More Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 We should tell him to use the Koonawarra yard sticks. These yardsticks represent the most upto date yardsticks avaiable at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Taipan 4.9 ???? Sounds like they want to replicate the very successful Sail Melbourne in NSW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchlb44 Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Sounds like they want to replicate the very successful Sail Melbourne in NSW Tornado I would have to disagree - There have been no Multihulls at Sail Melbourne for quite some time now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 And Windrush, I guess there are a few of them about. Are they talking about yoof or normal people for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Seems to include us regular folk. Shows how out of touch YA are; while trying to include everyone they use so many exclusionary terms: - "The classes that have been invited.."; why not open to all classes as usual at regattas? - "encouraging participation from all centreboard classes...", bad luck Hobie, Windrush, Maricat and others with no centreboards - "the biggest dinghy regatta..." damn, catamarans fallen off the list already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Nelson Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Opportunity Everyone is invited. You just need you class to put a fleet together. Let's put a positive note on this; YA have modified the event and invited all classes not just ISAF classes. It is an awesome chance to showcase the diversity of multihulls We can have a big party The YA email specifically asks for classes to register, so get moving and put a fleet together Lose the chip off the shoulder they do not hate us! Hobies have been included in Centreboard (As opposed to Keel) division since I sailed CHS when the Beatles were still together. NO need to be pedantic on semantics! We are the Kings; first mixed event in the whole Olympics, Americas Cup, strongest Australian team in ISAF Youth Worlds (Go PBSC) last 2 years And before we knock YA too much spare a thought for the amount of work Phil Jones put into the ISAF Olympic committee He totally supported the multi the whole time. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Andrew, 14' Catamarans divided into classes (Paper Tiger, Maricat etc.) will not present the sizable fleets you may be expecting. A Pittwater club hosted regatta for all 14' Catamarans sailing on Koonawarra Bay yardstick certainly has more potential to do this. I refer to the thread on this website under 14' Cats and the proposed travellers series. I have emailed David Edwards who sent the following response Hi Tony, Thanks for your note. It looks like you are doing a lot with your classes. I’ll endeavour to let you know which way things are heading as early as possible, hopefully in the next fortnight. At this stage I need to wait for responses from the class associations in order to understand the scale and scope of what we have to plan for. So far we have had about 25% of classes respond and they have indicated interest from approx. 300+ boats. Let me know when you have your Travellers Series dates sorted out and we can add it to the YNSW calendar on our website. Regards, David. DAVID EDWARDS General Manager Yachting NSW I know on a club basis Port Kembla SC is keen to encourage all its off the beach classes to participate - possibly finishing up club racing a week early to allow this. Sail Melbourne - but better by including cats!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Tornado I would have to disagree - There have been no Multihulls at Sail Melbourne for quite some time now! Can no longer find the links on the Sail Melb web site, but in the past Sail Melbourne was more than just the Olympic and Invited Classes regatta at Sandringham. It included the 'Sail Melbourne Catamaran Classic' at McRae, the 'Southern Oceans Multihull Regatta' from Port Melbourne, other class championships at times such as the A Class states, the Tornado and other class's Aisan Pacific Championships and several other regattas including dinghy's and yachts. Sail Sydney was previously an Olympic and Invited classes, single event seperate to the SIRs regatta, another Olympic and Invited classes event. (I race in it at the Georges River Sailing Club on Botany one year. SIRs is the December event at Woollahra.). Sail Sydney was never as successful as SIRs as it was not an ISAF recognised event and rarely saw International competitors. The Sail Sydney event was only held a few times. From the press release above, it looks like they are now trying to re-establish the Sail Sydney name as an event that will umbrella several events including the SIRs regatta, just like Sail Melbourne have done for many years with it's regattas across the January period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 An example of a line up of events one year under the 'Sail Melbourne' name. notice 2 x cat regattas. 1 for small multies and another for offshore multies. Australian 420 Championships Australian International Cadet Championship Flying Dutchman World Championship Australian Flying Dutchman Championship Australian Javelin Championship Australian International Fourteen Championship Australian Laser Championship 420 World Championship Southern Oceans Multihull Regatta Australian 29er Championship Sail Melbourne Mistral Class Warm-up Regatta Sail Melbourne Keelboat Regatta Australian Optimist Championship Sail Melbourne Dinghy Classic Sail Melbourne Formula Windsurfing Regatta Sail Melbourne Formula Windsurfer Championship Victorian Access Dinghy Championship Sail Melbourne Trailable Regatta Sail Melbourne - Olympic & Invited Classes IFDS Single Handed Disabled World Championship Sail Melbourne Catamaran Classic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterM Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Why use the Koonawarra yard sticks instead of the VYC, for a start if a race committee uses Koonawarra yard sticks for 14' cats in a mixed fleet on VYC you would be mad to turn up with anything other than a Formula 14 because YVC rate the F14 (27.87 sqm sail area, min weight of 75Kg, width 2.438m) at 76 and Koonawarra yard sticks gives such a huge discount rating it at 84. Anyone turning up to a 14' cat event or other regatta that uses Koonawarra yard sticks with a F14 would win all the silver wear even if they didn't know how to sail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Familiar topic, eg; http://catsailor.net/forums/showthread.php?3289-14ft-Yardsticks Reasons for Koonawarra: - they include all 14' cats, while VYC omits several classes (eg; Maricat S/S and Maricat foam hulls) - they are more accurate, being based on ongoing race results instead of historical data Development classes like F14 and Mosquito provoke yardstick debate. Did the Mozzies get 8 in top 10 at the 2010 Painsville Cat Champs because they're all such great sailors, or possibly because the yardstick hasn't changed since they went to Kevlar hulls and Mylar sails? Back in the 1980's I raced a Sailfish in "Two-of-a-kind" regatta at Woollahra, on Sydney Harbour. The race was great as it allowed proper comparison of boats for yardstick evaluation. Well, almost. Our scow-nosed sailfish were crap in the choppy conditions there, but cleaned up when we got back on flat water on Narrabeen Lake. Perhaps YA would consider such an event for future inclusion in Sail Sydney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterM Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 A Mosquito with Kevlar hulls Mylar main sails and a kite is a chea[p(t]) man's Formula 14Plus or Formula 16Minus, (LOA: 4900 mm, weight (unrigged) 55 kg, main sail area 14.9 sqm and a spinnaker of luff 6950 and foot of 3500 which is about 16 sqm). It's yard stick should be between 72 and 75 and there seems to have been blatant deception by someone in the Mosquito class association by making up a yardstick by taking 5% of the 84 YVC for the 1970s built wood boat with a 12sqm main to create a VYC of 80 show that those who think they know about sail boat rating in YA Victoria actually really have no idea. Sorry if this offends anyone but sometime you just can’t be politicly correct or polite (if it looks like it, smell like it, feels like it, tastes like it and performs like it, there is no need to wait for the pathology result to know what it is!) To create a valid yard stick system based on fleet participant skills and the performance of the class of boat would require a two or three of a kind regatta plus a series of race of those skippers in the two/three of a kind boats to sailing against each other on a single one design boat (Hobie 16 or Maricat 14 could be the right measuring boat) and the formula compares skipper to skipper then applies that to boat class vs boat class. Now that would be scary for those class fleets that think they are the cream but actually skill wise are the B, C or D fleet sailors. Imaging the top 3 Hobie 16 sailor in AUS vs the top 3 Mosquito Kevlar/Mylar/kite skippers having a race on Maricat 14s then their performance given a correction factor so they all have the same finish time, the average of the 3 corrections becomes the boat classes skill performance correction factor. Then they race their Kevlar/Mylar/kite Mosquitoes against the Hobie 16s. A correction factor is applied to boat performance, averaged and then recalculated by the skill performance factor to give a true boat class yardstick, able to compare and rate catamaran class performance at all regattas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Nelson Posted May 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 God I love my One design I was hoping to get some interest in this regatta. Demonstate the health of the Multihull scene and away we go. BTW my Hobie 16 rates FAT. Andrew MeanMachine 7691 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 I agree Andrew, I was hoping for the same. A Big fleet, camaraderie and a celebration of cat sailing. Not a chase for silverware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humungus2 Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 I can't wait. This is going to be great. Finally some competition other then warren and Phil. I hope the Maricat President has given you guys the nod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Nelson Posted May 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Reminder Just a quick reminder I was just passing on the message from YA, to register your class refer back to the original post for Daniel Williams' email address. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Maricat Vice President gives it the nod any way. By the way I'm more than happy to go VYC, that gives my foam SS maricat a yardstick of 92 (maricat sloop), yee haa. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 As the custodian of the Koonawarra Bay Yardsticks, I thought it appropriate to comment. We have had no "F14" cats compete at our annual Koonawarra Bay 14ft Cat Regatta, other than Bern Leslie's "International 430". His boat is rated at 86, which seemed fair when he last competed some years ago. We have not seen any Alpha Omega F14s here, nor have we been provided results that show a comparison between them and other boats. We have heard stories about their performance though, so we know they are quick. We just don't know HOW quick. There was a chance they were going to compete a few years ago, so we gave them a nominal yardstick of 82. This may have been quite generous but, as they didn't end up competing, we had nothing to base any changes on, so we left it until further evidence surfaced. If people can provide any further info, such as race results of a regatta where the F14s have competed, we would be happy to receive them and review it accordingly. Obviously, if the event had top-level skippers from a few 14ft cat classes, this would be very beneficial and help in the accuracy of setting a new yardstick. At the time we set the one for the AO F14, there was talk of plenty of action on the F14 scene, so we also set a "general" one for other F14s of 84. Bear in mind, the talk at the time was of 'sooped up' production cats with bigger rigs, trapezes and kites. Again, none appeared for us to compare to, so it has been left untouched. Again, we welcome your objective input. We don't portray ourselves as the authority on yardsticks. We simply saw a need about 20 years ago for a more accurate yardstick system that covered all the classes. So we set about establishing a list that tries to include all 14ft cats and we have tried to make them as accurate as possible based on the performance of the classes over a number of events. This ensures a higher degree of accuracy. While using the methods PeterM outlines may provide even more accuracy, it would be difficult to achieve and we are not about to go down that path. We have been very fortunate to have had many of the 14ft cat class State and National Champions compete at our 14ft cat regatta over the 18 years it has been held. This has given us confidence in the results we have seen. We have also been careful not to make 'knee-jerk' changes to the yardsticks based on a single event, but rather made slower changes over multiple events where required. What has been very pleasing to witness over many years is that the final results of the five race 14ft cat regatta have VERY often produced a one-point difference between the top two boats, or even top three, and these have usually been from different classes. Personally, I find that very satisfying. People who compete at our event (which uses the Koonawarra Bay Yardsticks), know that they are competing under pretty fair handicaps/yardsticks and that the winner and other top placegetters are almost always the people who sail the best across the entire weekend. And when it comes down to it, that's pretty much all most of us are asking for. My comments above are not a push for using the Koonawarra Bay Yardsticks at the Sail Sydney event. We will certainly not be "put out" if you choose to use VYC (now Yachting Victoria) or any other yardstick system. I simply wanted to address the comments that we are out of touch with the F14 classes. And, as mentioned by others, the Sail Sydney event is really about an opportunity to showcase our various classes and to enjoy racing against each other, regardless of the yardsticks/handicaps used or the prizes received. Kind Regards, Dave Stumbles Koonawarra Bay SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Sail Sydney non olympic classes NOR is up http://www.sailsyd.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/sailsyd/downloads/SS%20NoR%20110923.pdf Run from Kurnell (for the catamarans) $170 entry for Single Handed $230 entry for Double Handed $100 for single day entry. $100 late entry fee as well! OUCH! Wildcat entry is $100 for Double Handed & $90 for Single and its a 3day regatta as well! YNSW are a bit on the steep side of life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 OK so $170 bucks for me and my boat for entry, does it say anywhere what we get for our $170 , No. of races, a course to our liking or take what you are given, a shirt or a stubbie holder, to remember it all by. I'm just asking cause by the time I factor in getting to Sydney, accomodation at that time of year in Sydney for me and the family, meals, fuel, entertainment for them while dad is off having fun, etc I'm going to be nudging up around $1000.00 for the weekend. I feel SWMBO is gonna put the kybosh on this for me, due to what it'll cost us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 3 days of racing out of Kurnell (nice place to sail), a course set by a Multihull club (better than mono sailors setting courses...), normally a t-shirt and thats probably about it. The msg I got from my mate who is on the committee at YNSW said event costs are heavy, 2 National Jury Panels, a Regatta director (2days/week for 3mths) & 5 host clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Any tips on cheap accomodation near Kurnell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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