14' Catamaran Association

[humungus2]

Ok, today we are forming a 14' Catamaran Association. Mainly so that the Maries, Windies and other associations can still run Nats and States and each Association Committee can stil be covered if somthing goes wrong. At this stage we are intendding on the NSW/ACT Maricat Ass and the NSW Widrush Ass to be under the umbrella. If there are any others like us were there is not enough members to cover the cost of insurance, then let us know. The more members we have the cheaper the membership is going to be.

Each Association will be a divison or chapter of the 14' Association so nothing will change in the running of your association and the Committee will be covered. No grey areas.

[Scuttlebutt]

This is a great idea and should have been done years ago!!!!!!!!

What about the WA Windrush Association??? can other states participate??

What would the cost structure be??

[darcy1945]

If, as Mick states, it is a 14' Cat Asscn, (without mention of state in the title), it could be a National body allowing many more members to be covered. Look into this Mick.

[humungus2]

We have had an on the beach discusion and we are doing some home work. I will be pushing hard for it. It has many ups including bringing the different classes together. WATCH THIS SPACE.

[TornadoSport260]

At the moment its just for NSW. It's going to be hard enough to get every one to agree here without adding other states just yet.

[tonyquoll]

A guide to becoming an incorporated association:

http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Cooperatives_and_associations/Associations/Incorporating_an_association.html

I completely disagree with the notion that we should form an association, in order to run events and be covered if something goes wrong. I’d just as soon join the Chicken Little Association, to be covered in case the sky fell in.

There are three safeguards already in place to protect associations:

- each sailor sails at their own risk, and protects themselves with YA membership (including personal accident insurance), and comprehensive boat insurance that includes public liability.

- events are run by clubs, and they are the ones liable if something goes wrong

- associations are incorporated, which means that no member may be made liable for any action or debt of the association.

The requirement of any event organiser if to ensure all reasonable measures are taken to ensure safety. Liability arises from failing to do that. It is the duty of the event organiser, typically the club, to undertake risk assessments and have in place emergency plans.

One argument is “who will pay for the defence?”, in the case than an association is sued, regardless of whether they are liable or not. I suggest that $1000+ per year for insurance exceeds the cost of defending such a claim. My personal experience is appear self-represented, defending charges from obstructing forestry operations. I have won cases in Magistrates, County and Supreme Courts doing so. As a non-lawyer, I was only able to claim my expenses and not time involved in each case. I am now enrolled as a Law Student and may become a lawyer in 5 years or so. Details of the forestry case at: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/vic/VSC/2005/228.html

Considering some possibly benefits of a 14’ Catamaran Association:

- greater networking and unity between classes. It is debatable if the current 14’ Cat Traveller series is achieving that goal.

- reduced committee work, with a shared workload. However if each class we still required to organise their own events, then it would be more efficient for them to remain a separate association. Alternatively, the 14’ Cat Committee would be required to organise events for classes that they may not belong to.

Consider a fictional example; 4 owners of Pussycats want to race and call it their State Titles. They have insufficient numbers to form an Association of their own. They could either:

- enter an existing event, and between themselves declare the highest placed finisher the State Champion. In this case all organising and liability is with the host club.

- join the 14’ Cat Association, and seek help in having an event run for them. If this association held the event independent of any sailing club, and took on all aspects of running the event, then this association would also take on liability. This option requires substantially more work for no real benefit.

[TornadoSport260]

I'm not a legal person but have dealt with insurance companies on PI,PL & PA insurance policies for National Sporting Organisations.

Whilst I agree there are some safe guards by being an incorporated association, I do not believe that as an association you pass ALL liability onto a host club if you have a nationals or states etc.

The reasoning behind this is that the Association is still the "Organising Authority". ie. the Association has organised a club to organise the on/off water activities etc but the Association has still organised the club to do so and is therefore still the organising authority.

An example from Motorsport, when the Improved Production Racing Association of Australia holds it's yearly Improved Production Nationals, they organise a company that has the right to run events at a particular track to organise the on track racing etc. The association do not organise the flag marshals, the race director, the stewards or the timing staff, that is left to the company they organise to run the events. However they are still seen as the organising authority and they are basically sub-contracting out the actual running of the event. They still need to do due diligence to ensure that the company they hired is doing all they can to ensure all reasonable measures are taken to ensure safety and that they themselves as an association is doing all they can to ensure reasonable measures are taken to ensure safety.

So to put that into a sailing situation. The last Windrush Nationals in WA was organised by the Windrush Association of WA. They hired the Princess Royal Sailing club to run the on/off water events BUT the WA Assocaition was still the organising authority and they published the Notice of Race and they collected the entry fees etc. They were liable if due diligence was not done as well as the club.

Another one that deals with a related Liability issue. In 2004 a competitor at a motorsport event at Wakefield Park near Goulburn, NSW was deemed to be ineligible to compete because his fire extinguisher was out of date. In order to be eligible to compete the competitor had to either replace it or have the extinguisher re-gassed. The competitor chose to have a qualified tradesman re-gas the extinguisher. What then transpired was that the tradesman came out to the track and proceeded to re-gas the extinguisher. The tradesman made an error in how he refilled the extinguisher and it exploded with both the tradesman and the competitor being injured quite severely. Workcover then proceeded to prosecute the event organiser (not the host track/club) for not having an appropriate risk management system in place to deal with sub-contractors etc, because it was deemed that the tradesman became a sub-contractor of the competitor/event and I also believe the tradesman was then liable for the injuries caused to the competitor (I cannot find the case documents online). I believe also that in such a case then individuals can be targeted for liability even in an incorporated association, which is where Public Liability insurance would come into play I believe (correct me if i'm wrong). The only info I could find was this http://www2.cams.com.au/content.asp?PageID=Article&ObjectID=1019.

So to put the above example into a sailing context. A class association organises a club to run a nationals, a competitor turns up and he realises that his trailer has a wheel bearing that has collapsed (don't laugh I've had it happen...) The competitor decides that the trailer cannot be towed to a repairer and instead organises a mobile mechanic to carry out the repair work on the grounds the event is being run from ie. at the event. The mechanic jacks up the trailer then forgets or just does not put an axle stand under the trailer. The jack gets a leak and collapses trapping the competitors foot because he was there watching the mechanic do the work, then both the sub-contractor and event organiser is liable. Given that I doubt that ANY sailing association or club for that matter understands that they are liable to ensure that the "sub-contractor" is carrying out safe work procedures etc, I doubt any would have a risk plan inplace that deals with such an issue.

I hope that provides some information to help make a more informed decision on insurance etc etc.

[tonyquoll]

The motorsport case can be read at: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/nsw/NSWIRComm/2006/331.html

At 2(iii) it makes clear that Vee 8 Supercars Australia (the defendant) had an active role in running the event, including managing paddock use, access and circuit accreditation issues.

At 2 (vi) it says "the defendant failed to undertake an adequate risk assessment", which is why they were liable.

At sailing events it is more typical that the Sailing Club takes on responsibility for all activities involved in running the event, while the Association has only a basic administration role. The critical difference comes down to who is required to take reasonable steps to ensure safety. It is the club that performs the risk assessment, decides where to put the course, whether or not to race, etc.

The Association does not "pass on liability"; they simply are not ever in a position of being liable. The exception is if an Association were to run an event independently from a sailing club.

The link provided includes the statement "no CAMS member has ever been prosecuted for an offence arising from a CAMS sanctioned event", which confirms the law that no member of an incorporated body can be individually prosecuted.

Are there any actual cases where a sailing association has made an insurance claim?

[h20melon]

I agree with Tony. As stated in all Paper Tiger only events, the host club is always the "Organising Authority".

I would also point out in TornadoSport260's "sailing" example that you do not need a trailer to go sailing, and based on that example then the mobile mechanic would first be liable then it would go to the sailing club for allowing this to happen if it is on their land (if on the road-way then there can be no further action). I cannot see how it would go to the class association as this would have nothing to do with them.

I'm in the process of contacting a lawyer about the PT's.

[Pointed Reply]

In the Insurance section of the Yachting Australia Web Site it says:

Insurance for Associations

It is imperative that Class Associations are adequately insured to protect their committee members and volunteers.

Classes which are affiliated to Yachting Australia (for National Associations) or their State/Territory Yachting Association (for state/territory Associations) can take out cover under the Yachting Australia’s Master Insurance Policy.

Robert Masterman Insurance Brokers have been involved with Yachting Australia for many years developing and enhancing insurance cover for clubs, class associations and travelling athletes.

For more information or to discuss your class association’s requirements, please contact Bob Masterman

I have sent an email to Bob Masterman stating our current situation and requesting information and what "adequately insured" means.

[darcy1945]

Rod, keep us informed on results. For all the naysayers out there, the cost of membership to this asscn (If all classes join), will be minimal compared to to the extra protection and peace of mind.

[PeterM]

A club cannot be the sole organizing authority of a state title or national championship or a travellers series (at several clubs) event for a class of boat see RRS 89. For instance the Paper Tiger Association or the Windrush Association are required to have an affiliation with their state and/or national authority, this allows them “authority” to administer their class rules and the authority to offer/invite the associations members or guest sailors (if it is not a requirement to be a member of the association) to participate in the event to compete for a the prize or glory of being the winner. If a club was able to be the sole organising authority independent of the boat class association, then out of the blue the Dogs of Chains Sailing Club (DCSC) could issue a formal “Notice of Race” holding the 2012 Australian National Championships for Pater Tiger Catamarans on 31/1/11 to 2/1/12 at the DCSC and the guy/girl who won this event would be rightfully a National Pater Tiger Champion for 2012. Point being here is that if the event has a name of a boat in its title or a formal NoR in addition to a clubs annual regatta NoR, the boat associational (and its members if not incorporated) is one of the “organizing authorities” of the event and thus maybe liable if anything goes wayward. Every case would be different and tested on the circumstances of the particular situation, so throwing up examples not appropriate. The only exception is if the boat class association is an unaffiliated body owned by a member Yacht/Sailing club see RRS 89.1(e).

The issuing of a “notice of race” for a travellers series by a boat association makes it the sole organising authority of that event being held at a number of clubs over time, if the association has not entered into a formal arrangement with each club in conjunction with the association. The boat association (or its members if not incorporated) maybe more liable than any one club.

If “Johnny” as a member of the 14ft Cat Association (not incorporated) organizes a social sail on a lake that happens to have a club on it by advertising it on a website in a way that indicates it is an association social activity, it is probable that the association (or its members if not incorporated) would be liable if anything goes wayward and particularly if that involved a guest/s sailor/s who was not a YA member with personal insurance cove attached to their membership, had no third party insurance on their boat insurance or no boat insurance at all or the resulting damages exceeded the cover of their insurance. If the unincorporated members dispute that Johnny has any authority to organise the event, Johnny is in big do do, unless he can prove the other members sanctioned the event by not disputing it was an association event prior. (for this reason I would like to document that I am not a member of the 14ft Cat Association by way of association with this blog or forum)

In this day and age, to organise anything beyond a kick around of a ball at a picnic a couple for friends is inviting a level of (financial) risk that could cost you more than you could ever imagine. The appropriate protection is an incorporated association with an appropriate level of public liability insurance. It you guys get a constitution with incorporation together and affiliate the "14ft Catamaran Association of Australia" with YA, I'll happily pay a $50ish membership per year. Then you can run a 14ft nationals or states for all the 14ft cat that haven’t had a nationals/states for sometime and I bring a 14ft cat along.

89 ORGANIZING AUTHORITY; NOTICE OF RACE;

APPOINTMENT OF RACE OFFICIALS

89.1 Organizing Authority

Races shall be organized by an organizing authority, which shall be

(a) the ISAF;

(b) a member national authority of the ISAF;

© a club or other organization affiliated to a national authority;

(d) a class association, either with the approval of a national authority or in conjunction with an affiliated club;

(e) an unaffiliated body in conjunction with an affiliated club where the body is owned and controlled by the club. The national authority of the club may prescribe that its approval is required for such an event; or

(f) if approved by the ISAF and the national authority of the club, an unaffiliated body in conjunction with an affiliated club where the body is not owned and controlled by the club.

[humungus2]

Lots of good imput, we are still doing more home work

[Prince Planet]

Methinks this is a good idea too - sharing the cost of insurance and organisational activities can only be a good thing - particularly as the grass-roots of the sport is not really being actively addressed presently - or only in very isolated instances. That's not any individual or associations fault - it is purely the economic climate we're dealing with – and the vast array of alternative activities that a prospective newbie could consider...

Maybe something to consider is to create the association for the primary purpose of promotion of the 14ft class - and leave the hosting (and liability) of racing events to the established clubs?

I know that sounds simplistic... however I do believe we need to acknowledge that the promotion of the 'entry-level' cats is sorely lacking - and that the racing is an allied – but different issue...

PP

[tonyquoll]

Regards to associations and clubs organising events:

- each group is only liable for that which they are responsible for. The association deals with Entry Forms, so could be liable if someone was unfairly prevented from entering (and would be thrown out of court for such a petty claim). The Club deals with all on-water matters, and is responsible for all on-water incidents.

- in any liability situation, the responsibility is to take all reasonable care to ensure safety. A thorough risk assessment is required. A further distinction between the motor race fire extinguisher case and a boat trailer; the organisers demanded the fire extinguisher be filled, therefore should have consider the risks involved with that incident. We don't demand people fix their trailers on site, so have no reason to assess that risk or take responsibility for it.

- yes, YA say we should have insurance. Their major sponsor and "loyalty partner" is an insurance company. No surprise that salespersons talk up a storm if there's $1000+ in it with no possibility if any claim! Ask them to cite any case where an association actually made a claim. Looking through case law, the examples all relate to land disputes; rights to rigging areas, etc.

Regards the 14' Cat Traveller Series, the "Notice of Series" makes clear:

"8 DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY

(a) Competitors participate in the series entirely at their own risk.

(b) This is an informal series, not organised by any incorporated body. Resolution of any incident must be taken up with the authority relevant to each regatta.

9 INSURANCE

It is the responsibility of each participating boat and club to arrange their own insurance."

There, just saved $1000.

The RRS cited above at 89.1© makes clear that a (YA affiliated) club CAN organise races; no association involvement required. We do this every saturday at Wallagoot Lake.

Once you've paid your memberships and obtained the public liability insurance, could I interest you in buying one of my shares in the Sydney Harbour Bridge?

[Dr Peter]

Speaking as a person who has recently been through an OH&S process as the manager of my workplace I think insurance is one thing. The other is the processes and protocols in place to handle OH&S matters. You need a documentary trail that shows 'reasonable steps' and this is where a national 14 ft catamaran association could help all the smaller associations.

Peter

[Dr Peter]

Speaking as a person who has recently been through an OH&S process as the manager of my workplace I think insurance is one thing. The other is the processes and protocols in place to handle OH&S matters. You need a documentary trail that shows 'reasonable steps' and this is where a national 14 ft catamaran association could help all the smaller associations.

Peter

[TornadoSport260]

- yes, YA say we should have insurance. Their major sponsor and "loyalty partner" is an insurance company. No surprise that salespersons talk up a storm if there's $1000+ in it with no possibility if any claim! Ask them to cite any case where an association actually made a claim. Looking through case law, the examples all relate to land disputes; rights to rigging areas, etc.

Regards the 14' Cat Traveller Series, the "Notice of Series" makes clear:

"8 DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY

(a) Competitors participate in the series entirely at their own risk.

(b) This is an informal series, not organised by any incorporated body. Resolution of any incident must be taken up with the authority relevant to each regatta.

9 INSURANCE

It is the responsibility of each participating boat and club to arrange their own insurance."

There, just saved $1000.

The RRS cited above at 89.1© makes clear that a (YA affiliated) club CAN organise races; no association involvement required. We do this every saturday at Wallagoot Lake.

Once you've paid your memberships and obtained the public liability insurance, could I interest you in buying one of my shares in the Sydney Harbour Bridge?

YA & OAMPS are not some big bad evil money grabbing machine and personally I'm sick of hearing that they just want our $$$.

I've worked with OAMPS before on Australian Canoeing's PI,PL, PA & D&O insurance and they weren't in it to just grab our $$$. Quite to the contrary they actually helped us reduce the range of insurance we carried and intern they took a big cut in $$$ (over $20k from memory).

8(b) wouldn't stand up in a court of law if you ask me. The travellers series has been "Organised" (as shown by the fact that there is a NOR) and if something were to happen where negligence could be proven then I'd say those involved were partially liable. The reason I believe those that helped "Organise" it could be liable are that it is the "organisers" responsibility to ensure that due diligence is being taken. Now you say that the "on the water" activities are the responsibility of the club, but it is also the organisers responsibility to ensure the club is doing due diligence in how they conduct the races.

Anyway the idea of the association is not entirely about the insurance. It's actually more to do with helping 14ft cats provide a united front to help promote more growth across the classes. The more boats that turn up to a regatta the more likely someone is to be inclined to get into the class/es. I don't see why we couldn't run combined PT/Mari/Windy states/nationals in NSW. Hell its better to have 40 boats and the economies of scale that go with having that many boats than it is to have 10-15 boats at a regatta. Its a better atmosphere and much easier to get sponsorship with 40 boats than with 10-15 too.

[Prince Planet]

"Anyway the idea of the association is not entirely about the insurance. It's actually more to do with helping 14ft cats provide a united front to help promote more growth across the classes. The more boats that turn up to a regatta the more likely someone is to be inclined to get into the class/es. I don't see why we couldn't run combined PT/Mari/Windy states/nationals in NSW. Hell its better to have 40 boats and the economies of scale that go with having that many boats than it is to have 10-15 boats at a regatta. Its a better atmosphere and much easier to get sponsorship with 40 boats than with 10-15 too."

Exactly - and as Tony has pointed out - each skipper MUST have his/her own insurance - and each club likewise - so wotz the problem-o?

PP

IMHO - the association could organise a Cat-Expo each year - and it would certainly be a nice thing to have 20 or 30 boats lined up on a beach - Clontarf gets my vote for beauty and proximity to the biggest 'audience' - something to consider? If insurance was needed for such an event - then could it be taken out on an event basis?

PP

[TornadoSport260]

last i checked it was as expensive to get a once off policy as it is to get a 1yr policy.

I don't agree that our personal insurance and club insurance covers the association so thats my problem-o.

[Prince Planet]

Agree - so the cost of insurance for races/events organised by the new 14ft Association outside of events run by clubs would be borne by the association... right?

If that means disbanding individual associations - to allow a more coordinated, cost effective body... that may be the 'price' we pay...?

[tonyquoll]

Your personal insurance covers you, eliminating any need for you to sue any association or club.

Yes PP; the only instance an association really need insurance is if they organise independent events. Your example of a Cat Expo might be such as event.

If formed, a 14' Cat Association Inc. must have a Committee (Pres, Vic, Secretary, Treas, Public Officer, Committee members). Probably they would delegate organisation of class events (or other), to a working group of interested people. In order to ensure events are covered by the incorporation (absolving personal liability), the event and persons involved need to be detailed in the group's Minutes of Meeting. Getting the Committee of distantly location people together may be a great challenge.

Class Associations need not be disbanded, but if successful, the 14' cats would make them redundant.

As the NSW Paper Tiger Catamaran Association is part of an international network, that's not going to happen with us.

Yes I agree having 40 cats racing at a Nationals will be awesome. Can't wait to be in this fleet at this year's Paper Tiger Nationals, Mannering Park NSW January 3-8! There entry requirements; be an association member, enter a PT with measurement certificate, pay the entry fee.

I raised the issue of Class Association membership with some Windrush and Maricat sailors at our club. They have raced these boats for decades but never joined the association. They never saw any reason to, and were very surpised at the poor numbers. They just assumed such popular boats would have a large association.

I would suggest some promotion detailing the low cost and great benefits of membership would be a great help. What Christmas present do you buy for Dad/Husband/mate who seems to have everything he needs? Membership into a group of the best mates he'll ever meet! Yay team.

[tonyquoll]

Investigating the membership issue further, I found that neither Maricat or Windrush Associations have any mention of membership on their websites.

- suggest promoting membership and providing a membership form on the Maricat website: http://www.maricat.com.au

- looking for the Windrush Association website: found http://windrushnsw.tripod.com/ which says "Please visit our the new website of the Windrush & Prindle Association of NSW Inc.". Providing a link would help! OK found this one: http://nswwindrush14.org.au and this one http://windrushyachts.com.au/sailing-boats/windrush-14.html

Again suggest promoting membership and providing a membership form on the websites

After deciding to email the relevant Windrush Association official, I also found there are no contact details on the site http://nswwindrush14.org.au. Who would I obtain a membership form from?

[knobblyoldjimbo]

not trying to rain on the parade but a couple of years ago when Manno held a state or nationals one of the guys had to stump up well over a hundred to join the association (entry and annual) then pay for the event, then they had a separate start which left a small group of us in mixed class starting five mins later.

I know I'm an old misery!

[TornadoSport260]

Its $30 to be a member of the Windrush association and the contact details are at the bottom of the Why a Windrush page.

So why all the negativity at creating a 14ft Association? It helps us all for alot of reasons, hence i don't understand all the negativity of these thread?