michaelobe007 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 After 7 capsizes plus 3 pitchpoles, 2 DNF and a rescue needed to pull the mast out of the mud in the last 3 races, decided that some professional instruction is required. Does anyone know of any sailing coaches / schools on the South Coast of NSW where you can get some individual instruction :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 Let's start with the type of boat, the weather conditions (ie. wind strength, wave height), where abouts were you sailing, amount of people on board etc. There aren't many coaches outside of Sydney. I do know of a guy who sailed cats and is currently coaching the Finnish Olympic Match Racing team but lets see what the sailors on here can come up with first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelobe007 Posted December 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Sailing a Maricat 4.3 with a jib on Coila Lake - only me (85kg) - winds around 20 knots for 2 of the days and up to 30 for the 3rd. Seas short and below .5m. Biggest problem is that I can't tack the boat in these conditions. Have read the books, watched the DVD and talked to the other guys in the Club but missing some critical bit in either timing or degree. As expected, you get differing opinions, but this is what I've tried. Jib - suggested to let it backwind longer - problem - stops boat totally and if hit by a gust - over you go Main - let off some traveller - if too late or too little and gust - over you go. If too early boat stops again Crew weight - suggested keep forward - but moving back seems to help boat to turn. Certainly moving to windward side too early seems to turn boat head to wind Tiller - turned to 45 degrees but boat seems to stall When to tack - thought that it would be best to tack in gusts when really powered up and going fast but this means mainsheet not fully on. Maybe need to tack in lulls instead. Hope this all makes sense - as you can see am a bit frustrated and that's why I wanted some instruction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 To start with I wouldn't be too concerned capsizing in winds upto 30knts. We all do it, hell i even saw Mick (Mari national champ) go over in winds upto 20knts this past weekend. To tack the boat first you must think about what the sails do to the boat. If you are stopped and put the jib on with the main completely off, the bows get blown away from the wind regardless of rudder input to stop it. If you have the main on without the jib on then the boat will round up. So with that in mind the process of tacking in breeze on a Windrush is as follows (this is similar to that of a Maricat). 1) prepare yourself to tack, ie. organise your ropes so you won't get tangled (i usually just throw the excess mainsheet forward on the tramp). 2) gradually steer the boat into the wind till you get to full angle on the rudders 3) let some mainsheet out (say about a foot or 2) when the boat gets head to wind (you should be half way across the tramp by now) 4) usually in big breeze the boat stalls mid tack so you need to reverse the rudders around the same time as you're letting the jib off. 5) with the rudders still reversed sheet the jib on (you should be on the new side somewhere between step 4 & 5, I generally cross the tramp towards the back just to lift the bows out a bit more) 6) once the battens in the main pop steer away 5-10degrees then sheet on once the boat has some forward momentum (the rudders should be straight before the main pops or it'll stall the boat, think of your rudders like a big handbrake, if you can use the sails to steer the boat then the boat will be faster) 7) your off. Right that all sounds easy but it takes practice to get the timing right. You don't want to leave the jib on too long or you'll capsize, you also don't want to let mainsheet out till the boat is head to wind or it will stall too early. You shouldn't be playing with the traveller during a tack, its a waste of time because it doesn't control the mainsail in the right way for what you are trying to achieve. Anyway i'm sure some of the Maricat guys will helpyou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I'm sure that kind of thing duzzn't happen on a Windrush 14... PP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 What planet are you on? It happens to all of us (hell i nearly capsized during a tack on the weekend), some boats are more prone than others ie. Hobie 16's are good at going in backwards during a tack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Actually, I'm not one to talk - I was just there to make sure the other 14's grabbed the glory at Sail Sydney... I'm still trying to get out on trapeze successfully - fell off the boat backwards on first attempt and nearly drowned behind the boat trying to unhook – and then hit Pointed Reply (no damage - we just both went head-to wind - my mistake...) b4 the start of one race... TRULY embarrassing... BUT I didn't blow a single tack the whole weekend - even on the Sunday when it was LARGE chop/waves and gusting between 15 and 20 knots... Things is, in strong winds, you really must 'crash-tack' the boat - get full speed up, and don't be gentle about anything - when you get head to wind, reverse the rudders straight away - keep the jib on long enough that you can see the boat has gone past head-to-wind... then cross the boat quickly, while releasing the jib on the old tack... release mainsheet as soon as head-to-wind, then as you hike out on new tack, pull the mainsheet hard on as you go out.. as Michael said, bear away a little to get some speed up before pointing up again... anyway, it really does just take practice - and getting to feel at one with your boat - something I'm still trying to achieve on my new Windy... and man it CAN be frustrating... PP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelobe007 Posted December 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Thanks guys - that's really helpful Wasn't reversing the rudders at all so will go and practice that now Finally got all the mud out of the mainsail track so she's ready to go again A million more tacks and should have it under control :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 It probably helps to sail cat-rigged for a while, then if you stall while tacking / end up in irons, you MUST use the reverse rudder technique, while simultaneously physically grabbing the boom and pushing the mainsail onto the 'wrong' tack - basically back-winding the sail - to help push the stern around onto the new tack. Once you get your head around that, then when you put the jib on, you'll appreciate how it works in the same way to push the bows around... Of course, in REALLY heavy seas and winds, leave yourself some sea room - coz nobody gets it right 100% of the time... PS I was under the impression Hobie 16's were equally good at 'going in' forwards as well as backwards... PP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fulltilt Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 110,000 h-16's sold worldwide.gotta be something there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Michaelob, there is a group of really experienced Maricat 4.3 sailors who sail during January holidays on Swan Lake near Sussex Inlet. Wayne Barry and Jeff Reid. There is a Maricat event held the first Saturday of January the 7th in 2012 at Swan Lake (the Cuddy Cup). It would be worth the trip up there to gain experience. My club Port Kembla Sailing Club - Lake Illawarra has two new sailors on Maricats who we have been training for a few months. We don't start sailing again now until 21 January. Call me in the New Year on 0418454715 if interested. Sando Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Re: Hobie 16s.............they sold a lot of VW beetles too !! The 14 Ft Traveller Series will be at Wallagoot Lake on the 10/11 March. That will be a chance to have a bit of a clinic for new sailors...........Mick Colecliff (Maricat - State, National Champion) will be there, plus a few others. The clinic and general chat we had a Albury-Wodonga seemed to go well. Sailing in 20 Knots is always a challenge...........practice at 9am in 5 knots ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I'm interested in coaching and will be coming past Coila a few times in the next month: see private message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelobe007 Posted December 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Thanks Sando - will give try to make it in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Michael, you didn't mention trapeze, if you are sailing sloop rig (no trap) at 85 kg, you should have the jib furled upwind in 15-20kts, max mast rake, (Twin forestays length 5.5m, side stays 5m), is a must in 20kts plus. There is a great tuning guide on the mari site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelobe007 Posted December 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Darcy - did not know that - will measure forestays and side stays tomorrow and check out the guide. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 If tacking with a jib in heavier winds make sure you pull your mainsheet on before bringing the jib up tight. You need to get the mast to rotate and lock into position before the jib pulls it into derotation. Also make sure that in heavier winds you have the top mainsheet block on the rearmost setting, to assist in keeping the mast locked over. Tacking a mari is a little different than a windy as you can not normally release the jib sheet till you are sitting on the windward gunwale as you need to push the sheet down to get it to release, I noticed that the windies release by pulling the sheet up, (different block/cleat setup). I normally try to tack in the lulls not in the gusts. Do keep the jib backed till the bows go around (very frustrating if you have a crew who is used to mono's/yachts, as they release the jib as the boat starts to go thru the eye of the wind, its a real battle to get them to leave it on and let it back its self). If you have a crew you should be able to hold the boat down with only the jib backed, then release it, pull on the main, making sure the mast has rotated and locked, (I've snapped a mast by sailing with it derotated, can still bend them fairly regular the same way too and that is a with a new mast). The advice to go to Swan lake is wise advice, you should have turned up to the Maricat Nationals at Batemans bay earlier this year, to have a squizz and a chat even if you did'nt sail, its a way to get in the ears of the better sailors of your class. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fulltilt Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 VW bettles , another success story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 "in heavier winds you have the top mainsheet block on the rearmost setting" Cant agree with that one. Moving the blocks back means you have to be friggin Hercules to pull the mainsheet in tight enough to hold the leech up. You can either tear the muscles in your shoulders or lose power with a crappy twisted, de-powered sail. Mast rotates just fine with the blocks directly above the beam. At least that was my experienced on cat-rigged Maricat "Cheetah" at the Toukley Brass Monkey: - started with maximum rake and blocks on rear setting: almost unsailable as it wouldn't tack and needed so much strength to sheet. The setup made sailing it a real hard wrestling fight. - having the blocks in the normal position above the beam and mast rake so the boom was about horizontal transformed the boat into something that handled nicely and went faster. Bonus could even gybe without getting knocked out. Of course very strong, big guys may find benefit in the rear setting. Korwich; the rotation issues you describe are consistent with having a vang on too tight while tacking. That would hold the mast on the wrong rotation after a tack or gybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Tony, Phil sails sloop so the forward force of the jib tends to derotate the mast simply by leverage hence the move to having the blocks further back to provide a downward and forward force to effectively lock in the rotation. Oh, and Phil is a big, strong fellow! Most top Mari sailers don't use vangs; me I quite like them, not for upwind but for that broad reaching angle where the traveller no longer works and I want gusts to move me forward, not just bend the leech, however I spend my time competing at the back of the fleet so I should probably just get rid of the extra weight. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 As James said, having a jib attached to the hound fitting which as I sit here looking at my boat is I reckon 2 1/2" forward of the rotation pin in the foot of the mast, in a heavy wind that force of leverage on the mast with the jib drawing is enough to to pull the mast around to the wrong rotation, ie so that the gooseneck on the boom is actually sticking out to the windward side of the mast, the mast is presented flat side to the wind direction, the mast bends like all buggery. The idea of having the block further back is to force thre mast to lock its self into the correct angle of rotation, ie the mast hound fitting will sit almost pointing into the wind, the gooseneck on the boom sits around to leeward the mast presents its teardrop shape to the wind head on giving the most lateral strength in the direction it is required. Go and look at the sticky on rigging tuning at the start of the Maricat Forum section to what John Merle has to say about block hanger position and see if I'm correct. Of course I could be wrong, but it works for me. This problem of DErotation is not so much of a problem for cat rigged as cat has 4 stays with the windward stays pulling the front of the mast in the correct direction(to face windward, and no jib trying to pull the front of the mast over to leeward Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 Fair enough. Usually the jib wire / front stays shackle onto the mast with or near the rear stays, creating a pivot point. Longitudinal forces taken into rear wires, so jib sheeting should not affect rotation. Am very curious to look at the mari sloop-rigged geometry to see why it is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Hello, Well, I worked as a part-time sailing instructor for a number of years. I received a very fair hourly wage and I never expected anyone to tip at the end of the lessons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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