skinny Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 should clubs with multis be doing windward/returns or triangles ? What are most preferred by cat sailers? Looking for the best advise and comments Thanks Skinny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 most kite boats prefer up and down. but the rest prefer triangles, at speers point who have a large fleet of big cats ( f18s, As, 5.8s and h18s) we still race triangles to fit in with yard stick... hope this helps.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Marine WA Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 What courses do they do at States or Nationals? Clubs should offer the same if they want sailors to become competitive. W/R are easier for the clubs to set up and offer passing lanes on all legs. Helps keep the fleet closer together, being better for both sailors and spectators. Triangles are difficult to get the legs layed correctly for Cats and reduces passing lanes, resulting in fleets spreading out quickly. Harder and longer to reset if running multiple races in a session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 I agree that if your class does W/L's then doing them at club level would be good. But if your in a non spi boat they are boring... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 I agree with Micheal non spin boats + WR= boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny Posted August 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 Thanks for all comments so far. How do you make it fair for mixed fleet racing so yardsticks work? How was the F16 and F 18 y/s developed w/r or tri? The non spin boats cry when we do W/R and the spin guys soon when we do triangles We need to fix it up before summer. Any clues? _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny Posted August 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 Thanks for all comments so far. How do you make it fair for mixed fleet racing so yardsticks work? How was the F16 and F 18 y/s developed w/r or tri? The non spin boats cry when we do W/R and the spin guys sook when we do triangles We need to fix it up before summer. Any clues? _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madboutcats Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 G'day skinny, maybe you could ask what the majority of your sailors want, my last club was triangles and I love them as I'm on a Nacra 5.8 and theres nothing better than a reach on a 5.8. It seems that if club officials do a Yachting Australia Race Officer course they are instantly labotanised into believing windward returns are the ants pants and you still get a 30 metre reach rounding the top bouy (big deal). We have a club close to us that I visit regulary that has changed to windward returns and I have to admit I don't visit as often as I could because of the lack of reaches. My previous club set a combination of triangles and windward returns for each race and if you worked out the combination correctly everyone should be happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 you can run two courses but yardstick becomes a problem. until an standard course is implemented we have have to go with what we make work. until then no one be happy. the problem is now we have new class`s with kites. who can say what needs to be done. all comments would be good.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammer Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 It's really up to the club and the sailors. A Tri course may be fun during the reach but it is really a soldiers course. W/R course allows choice for downwinds. I find the course good for the dead runners like Hobie 14-16 who trundle down the course while the hull flying Taipans and A's zig sag downwind. A W/R course also gives options for downwind runs depending on wind shifts, lifts and holes etc. This may reward the better sailor even though he or she is on a slower boat. Setting the reach is only one extra buoy and is not too much of a hassle. The old AC ABC AC course is a compromise. Fairly or accurately scoring boats racing on two courses would be impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 At Wallagoot Lake, we like our reaches so much we put the cat wing mark even further out, while monos do an equilateral triangle: All of our cats are 14', no spinnaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 scott has it right, cannot score boats on 2 coures. so as a club you have to sort out what works as a club. to show our juniors what to do, does create problems, this is a problem to most clubs...but we still need to teach our juniors in all courses. hopefully they will learn any course given. bring on more juniors because thats the future of our sport.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inland_Sailor Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 Windward and Return = BORING!!! Whats wrong with the triangle, windward and return, and triangle race. All aspect covered and it is only one buoy extra. As for reaches being soldiers legs, that's rubbish. There is nothing better than the "on the edge" pursuit of a reach, flying a kite, dropping below or pushing up, defending your position, foxing to pass and then the satisfaction of making up your position or blasting away from the other boats your racing against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobie Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 Whats wrong with the triangle, windward and return, and triangle race. All aspect covered and it is only one buoy extra. As for reaches being soldiers legs, that's rubbish. There is nothing better than the "on the edge" pursuit of a reach, flying a kite, dropping below or pushing up, defending your position, foxing to pass and then the satisfaction of making up your position or blasting away from the other boats your racing against. well said as a none kite boat i support u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 We recently did a club officers course (whatever it was called), there wasn't any pressure on the type of courses but the emphasis on this stuff is for the Olympic type classes which include the skiffs for which W/L are best. I quite like the trapezoid courses but this requires four marks - not square but you'd get a W then a Reach then a Run then another Reach and can do loops on either of the runs but this may just mean that I've not understood the course and of course you have to have a bit of space to do them in. Like someone said the yardsticks (only for use in mixed fleets of course, not encountered in Olypics or other large one design regattas) are based on the classic olypic reach/loop courses and it seems unlikely that these are maintained as accurately as in the past due to smaller fleets. I would guess that the 470, star and finn classes would still do the old courses but I've no real idea. Certainly for the finn's leeward courses would provide a lot of activity simply because of the physical activity required to keep them surfing. KO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny Posted August 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 Keep the comments coming guys , It is obvious that clubs and sailers have this problem everywhere. We find it easier to run W/R as we can keep up with positions of the fleet ,(we run 15ft and under and 16ft and over starts + monos) the sailing area is more defined , a lot easier to shorten coarse get to a boat in trouble and one less buoy to lay with the smaller cats and monos doing less up and backs However It is apparent that in results from last season that when we raced triangles the spin guys had little chance of claiming a yardstick win over H18s H16s and the 5.8s even though the majority of spin cats got line honours. On the W/R the spin guys usualy got line and yardstick win. Maybe we spend more money on trophys and have a result for most firsts , seconds and thirds over the line as well as yardstick placings and personal handicap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madboutcats Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 A bit of the handicap results is the type of weather you have in a sailing race or season, if it's a really windy year the smaller and non spin cats will hammer you on handicap and the people that want to bitch will bitch, if it's light the spin cats hammer you and the people that want to bitch will bitch. I have a spinnaker for the 5.8 so can do either but to say the reach is a soldiers course is not based on fact, it is hard to overtake but not to catch or loose ground and when you do overtake it's exciting, the roundings are great fun full of adrenalin so is the run down and thats why a heap of people sail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Windward leeward courses allow for attack and/or defence over the whole race, great for top class sailors and spinacker rigged boats, boring for cat rig 14s, but, we will have to introduce the format. I would suggest every third race initially to monitor the response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Darcy, I'm not sure what you mean by "we will have to introduce the format." As far as I am aware there is no compulsion to set any particular course. In Canberra they set a figure of 8 course, which seems to allow all aspects. This is done mainly due to the confines of the lake and the shifting nature of the wind. If the race officer waited to get a "proper" WR course you could sit there all day. So it should depend on the venue the wind and the boats. I remember at one regatta (I think Port Stephens) where the course was set for WR to suit their Lasers and the 14ft cat guys got to together and requested Tri, WR, Tri and they happily changed the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 To attract spi rig boats to our regattas we will have to set courses that suit them, yardsticks will change as a result of course changes, but up and coming sailors will learn more with WR courses (Attack and Defence) It will happen eventually so we should start now with the occasional WR course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammer Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 So, you're at the top mark. But you're fifth. The breeze is nice and lifting. A nice puff as you get to the top mark. If you're on a triangle course you have watched the four bear away and reach for the wing mark,or, if it's windward return you have seen four boats round the top mark. On the run- first is (should be) covering second, third has run down low. Are you thinking you're still in the race? I would suggest more so than if it was a triangle course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammer Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Whats wrong with the triangle, windward and return, and triangle race. All aspect covered and it is only one buoy extra. As for reaches being soldiers legs, that's rubbish. There is nothing better than the "on the edge" pursuit of a reach, flying a kite, dropping below or pushing up, defending your position, foxing to pass and then the satisfaction of making up your position or blasting away from the other boats your racing against. True. I was also thinking the old abc ac abc course. What you do need is a well set wing mark- higher to get the blasting reach. It may sound hypocritical of me but I love sailing SWR and their triangles. AB runs on swells and reaching fast across the swells to C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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