Leadfoot Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Has everyone checked out the new VYC ratings yet. Interesting and a handicappers nightmare. Be a few A classes up for sale with people chasing older ones. Nacra 16 squares are taking a large hit for the new square tops even though they appear to be no faster at the moment. Arrows may be in the same boat. Adding a spinnaker is going to hurt. How handicappers police A classes I don't know with 3 variations and numerous versions of each variation. Nacra 5.8, Taipan cat and Hobie 16 have had a bit of a win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Interesting to see that they still don't acknowledge Maricat Super sloop, and they have Windrush 14' cats as no results recorded since 2003 (achived results). Or am I looking at the wrong site. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 I was looking at the wrong site, found the new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Dawson Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 http://www.yachtingvictoria.com.au/?Page=63399&MenuID=Sailing%5F%40%5FBoating%2F21673%2F0%2F%2COTB%2F10638%2F0%2F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul124ac Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Hmm. So I'd be better off sailing with an ally mast and a squaretop to get 71, rather than carbon and cop 69.5? Pretty flat conditions here, carbon might not be worth it. There are some burgular boats that have been fixed I see, RS100 was a glaring example. Bloody fast jiggers, and were around 115 from memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madboutcats Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Its like a sick joke, when was the last time a Taipan 5.7 won something major on handicap and they have copped it in the neck, the Taipan 4.9 has copped it in the neck on 77 and if they put the spin up it goes to 69 the same as the latest F16, I've just got a flatter spin for the 5.8 but the new rating won't see me using that. Other classes that have been cleaning up the trophys have hardley changed. I pay for 5 Yachting Australia memberships and the best they can do is this WINDWARD RETURN bull sh=it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furr_ball Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 I sail a mosquito, one up with kite and now rate 77 down from 80, how does that work? Where I sail I am lucky to beat a 16sq over the line but now rate lower than them. They base my rating on the F16 spinnaker size which I do not sail with, does not fit the boat and is not our class specification. How am I the same as a Taipan 4.9? Hobie 16 went up to 83? yep that's fair...not....I sail against quite a few and will just beat them on the old ratings - Hobie 81.5 and mossie with kite at 80. Yes some mossies do well against other classes but in practice, on the water I sail mixed class consistently and have to sail very well to rate out over any other class when I was on 80. The Nacra classes, especially the 430 seem to be very favoured, why is that? a 430 with kite at 84...you have to be kidding? May as well sail cat rig, no kite now and use 83. Something wrong in all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadfoot Posted January 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Furr_ball you suffer from the problem of sailing in Qld while most of the results are compiled in Victoria. Vic has a very strong and fast mozzie fleet which you will probably find win stuff in mixed regattas. Nacra don't change much because there is not a fleet of them down there. Taipans and paper tigers are affected in the same way as mozzies. I would think six minutes for a spinnaker would be to much but you get that when you southern brothers try to bolster their numbers by making themselves pseudo F16's. I have been bitching for a while that maybe yachting australia should spend slightly less on a dozen sailors to win gold at the olympics and a little bit more helping Vic yachting compile a more accurate rating systems for all the fleets including trailer sailors. Vyc's cause would be helped with us not modifying our boats haphazardly. If Mozzies want to run a kite then it needs to be the same kite across the entire fleet or you accept the handicap that comes from the guy that buys the fastest kite which is what Tornados, F16's and F18's have to do. I've had my fun using kites but basically now I find the biggest fleet I can and race against the same boat I have. I do keep track of other boats in different fleets but just try to do better than I did last time against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 The Nacra 430 with Kite at 84 has very, very, little chance of winning on yardstick against all of the other 14s. So if you think they are being favoured come and sail in our mixed 14 fleet, if the 430 with kite beats you at 84 you would certainly be out the back of our fleet. You are paying the price for gun sailors on gun boats who do well at mixed fleet regattas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawky Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Not to worry guys we exported a few stingrays to Belgium and when we had them rated over there ,it was the same yard stick as a tornado so we had the make the boats heavier and reduce the sail size. Figure that one lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karma_cat Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Furr_ball you suffer from the problem of sailing in Qld while most of the results are compiled in Victoria. Vic has a very strong and fast mozzie fleet which you will probably find win stuff in mixed regattas. Nacra don't change much because there is not a fleet of them down there. Taipans and paper tigers are affected in the same way as mozzies. I would think six minutes for a spinnaker would be to much but you get that when you southern brothers try to bolster their numbers by making themselves pseudo F16's. I have been bitching for a while that maybe yachting australia should spend slightly less on a dozen sailors to win gold at the olympics and a little bit more helping Vic yachting compile a more accurate rating systems for all the fleets including trailer sailors. Vyc's cause would be helped with us not modifying our boats haphazardly. If Mozzies want to run a kite then it needs to be the same kite across the entire fleet or you accept the handicap that comes from the guy that buys the fastest kite which is what Tornados' date=' F16's and F18's have to do. I've had my fun using kites but basically now I find the biggest fleet I can and race against the same boat I have. I do keep track of other boats in different fleets but just try to do better than I did last time against them.[/quote'] The Mozzie has class rules which specify the spinnaker size. We've been using them for over 10 years now and the spinnaker we use now is indistinguishable from the one we were using 10 years ago. It's a one-design, and apart from adding the spinnaker and shutting loopholes the rules have not changed since 1992. Nothing haphazard there! If a 16ft cat puts a spinnaker on, why is it a pseudo F16? We can't help it if the F16s copied our hull length 10 years ago there were 2-3 F16s in Australia and the Mozzies and Taipans went along to the F16 events to give them someone to sail against and for the fun of it. Doesn't mean they ARE F16s. The spinnaker Mozzies do well in Vic regattas but rarely win. it depends on who else is there and whether the course is windward-leeward or not. I agree someone should be investing some money and effort in working on the yardsticks. Since very few people have the luxury of racing in class fleets these days the yardsticks are very important. But I think it should be YA, not YV. The whole of Australia uses the yardsticks. YV have shown very little interest in them for many years now and I don't blame them. They are doing YA's job. These new cat yardsticks, by the way, did not come from YV. They were prepared by someone at Kurnell Cat Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furr_ball Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 ...... Vic has a very strong and fast mozzie fleet which you will probably find win stuff in mixed regattas. ...... I would think six minutes for a spinnaker would be to much but you get that when you southern brothers try to bolster their numbers by making themselves pseudo F16's. ......... Vyc's cause would be helped with us not modifying our boats haphazardly. If Mozzies want to run a kite then it needs to be the same kite across the entire fleet or you accept the handicap that comes from the guy that buys the fastest kite which is what Tornados' date=' F16's and F18's have to do. ......[/quote'] Your information is wrong, should do your research before you spout facts.... Mossies run a mossie kite, there are specific class measurements and it is not as large as an F16, there is no haphazard mod process going on. The Mosquito class is well provided for with class measurements and we just had our spinnaker nationals and we all measure correctly, most if not all run an Irwin kite. Read Karma's comments above about why we sailed with F16's in the early days, perhaps it did us as a class no favours....but that was not to be known at he time. The Victorian and SA sailors? sure they do well enough, but not significantly rating out over anyone. Why did the Hobie 16 go up 1.5, has the cat changed? nothing changed so why did it's yardstick? I am not the fastest mossie, in fact at the nationals well down the list, but that change is simply out of balance. What do you sail leadfoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadfoot Posted January 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. I at no stage said the size of your spinnaker just that they should be all one size if we are going to get a handicap. I mentioned that there were some mozzies being made into pseudo F16's. That statement came from articles I have read over the years about mozzies at F16 titles and adds in for sale columns were the seller has a mozzie F16 for sale. If you are all running the same size spinnaker then that is good. I wish no harm to your class. The whole Idea about a rating is that no one class dominates. It comes down to the best sailor for those conditions on that day. If you guys are doing well enough but not significantly better than any other it would tend to suggest that the rating you were on was right for your boat. I agree that some of the changes are bad that is why I started this Thread. I have sailed with spinnakers enough that I would be suprised that they make a 6 min difference to a mozzie yardstick. But I have not seen the results from your regattas to verify this What do I sail. I have been on cobra's, tornado's Taipan 5.7(limited but boy are they a nice boat) hobie as muckaround but lately Nacra 16 squares and 5.8's. I made the change from cobras to 16squares because N16 travelled and the qld cobras did not. Now I am in 5.8's because they are most sailed 2 man boat in southern Qld apart from maybe hobie 16's. That is the reason I have said that 5.8's had a win. Their handicap has not changed but the boats they race against have all taken significant penalties. I put a lot of time and effort into sailing, regularly travelling 400km's for a weekend regatta. Yes we need yardsticks and yes I would prefer Yachting Australia to produce a better benchmark. It is exceedingly hard to do. In my club I race against a 4.9 taipan cat rigged. Under 6 knots of breeze he will physically beat us around the course. Over 12knots he rarely gets within 5mins of us on yardstick. So what should he be. 71 or 81. Both he and I are current state champions. That is why I go to my early statement. Race against your class as much as possible. The rest of the boats, try to beat the guys you normally do. That way you will know if you are improving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterM Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Getting facts correct here, the Hobie 16 only moved 0.5 to 83 from 82.5 which has been its YS from 2009 to 2012. You need to look at the context RELIABLE for Hobie 16 and a change from TENTATIVE to PROBABLE for mozie+spin. Also look at Hobie 16+spin at tentative 78.5 vs Moz+spin at 77 and F16 at 69, you are not being treated as an F16, the moz+spin is rated a PROBABLE 11.6% slow than the RELIABLE F16 at 69. Additionally you need to look at the other criteria "when sailed well". To test that you sail well get a good Hobie 16 and turn up at the QLD Hobie state champs (or WA, VIC and NSW) and see where you are placed in a fleet that ranges from girls and guy in the top 15 in the world in their class down to club sailors. If you kick but your concerns are valid if you get lapped in a 40 minute race your need a lot of skill development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furr_ball Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 mmmmm.....facts hey... Had a look at VYC yardsticks - yes hobie 16 was 82.5. Why did I think it was 81.5? RQYS is still using 81.5 (in current results for 2012 sailing season - Rob on Hogs Breath et al) and Lake Samsonvale uses both 81.5 and 82.5... go figure. Reliable vs. tentative? - yes good point but a rating change of 3 points? Were mossies with spinnaker all of a sudden slaying all other comers? Sailed the Cootharaba Cat Challenge 2011, results are on their page, and would have placed top 5 approx. in hobies (very rough) if they had put me in that division as we started at same time. Not sure were those cats sit in the hobie hierachy. Have no particular grief with any class and their yardstick just curious as to why the significant change. Not going to sail a hobie either. Will just have to sail better as now I should be out in front according to the yardstick. Yardsticks will always be a challenge across mixed fleets, I sail for the fun not the silver anyway, but will certainly have to do better now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Nelson Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 " Lies, Lies and damn Statistics" Yardsticks are a statistical analysis, unfortunately the number of variables in sailing mean that the yardstick will only ring true in a specific perfect situation. Basically same sailor same wind. So in the imperfect world someone will always be unhappy. At Palm Beach Sailing Club we use a personal handicap. This means that the results then show individual improvement a lot more consistently. This could extended to a state level quite easily. Yachts and skiffs do it all the time. As Peter said if you want to sail on a level playing field sail one design. The stricter the class rules the more level the playing field. At the end of the day when I can find a race against identical boats, power down a 2 meter swell 2 miles off shore in 25knots and get most of the cost back when I trade my boat in after 5 years hard sailing, I can live with a move from 82.5 to 83 minutes for every 100 a FD sails. But, mostly I like the reliable bit! BTW DEvelopment classes should always be moving to a lower rating, but I like the way they have left some provisions for the older generations. See you on the water Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karma_cat Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. You certainly haven't offended me. I just like to correct any mistakes I see before it becomes "confirmed rumour". Like you I much prefer one-design racing, and we are fortunate here in Vic that there are usually enough Mozzies at regattas to not be concerned about yardsticks. I feel for people like Drew though who have to be satisfied with yardstick racing - but maybe that will change soon with four of them about to hit the water. Let's hope they can meet at the same place, same time often enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchlb44 Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Ok, I'm away at work and I'm hot and Tired.... Of the two links above which one is actually the YV yardsticks for 2012-2013... is the new "V3" the one to go with? The Stingray has gone from 74.5 to 71... fair enough, it is cutting edge technology, but why was it taken out of the archival yardstick list? I must say though that I am more than a little uncomfortable with the new yardstick list. I don't feel that you can have some numbers based on performance and other based on SCHRS - all boats need to be rated on the same system don't they? Why do the A-Cats get 3 separate yardsticks... every boat fits the same measurement rule? As a general observation it seems that the VAST majority of cats have a lower yardstick now... why? Personally I would have no issue if we raced under SCHRS. As long as it is adopted as the new 'rule'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul124ac Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 We as a yacht club were contacted for results of 2 boats, RS100 and Musto skiff, but the VC refused to give YV the info, stating that both boats were sailed by exceptional sailors and the local conditions were such that accurate results against other classes was impossible, I think it's known as a "Flyer" in data aquisition? How many other clubs gave YV skewed data? Both these boats are regularly beating A's and Taipans on handicap, mainly because we sail in light airs and short courses. Interestingly though the new YS was applied retrospectively to these boats and they still won. Mixed fleet is crap but what do you do? Everybody has their own taste and budget when it comes to boats. Mitch, do you reckon there are more cats being sailed in the last 5 years, this is driving the lower yardsticks? We've had an incredible surge in cat sailors locally, and there is still a lot of interest from new boatless members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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