hipopp Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 I have a mark 1 windy that continues to improve having won a club handicap race recently however...the rating of the windies is higher than a hobie 14 and i have seemingly no way to keep up with the hobie to windward sooooo...the handicapping is for a windie14 mark 1 or mark 2 or both? if both then i need to upgrade my mark 1 sails to the new mylar battened jib/mainsail to keep up with the handicapping right??? otherwise i simply will not be competitive...advice please??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 You will never win on yardstick on a mk1 windy, the current yardstick was established by much lighter and stiffer, foam sandwich boats, your mk1 (even with new race sails and a national champ at the helm) will be 3-5 minutes down, Hobie and Mari, do sail to their current y/sticks. Koonawarra y/sticks for, 14s, have been established over many yrs of mixed 14 racing by the best boats and skippers in the various classes. Mannering Park ASC, runs an annual 14' cat regatta using the Koonawarra y/stick with time allowances for, weight, off the beach rudders, and original multi coloured manufacturers sails, in your case, a stock mk1 with a skipper of 90kg and disk rudders, would gain 7 minutes against a race foamy with skipper under 90kg. It is rare for an older, stock boat to win (Most good skippers will be sailing race rigged), but it has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 With the manno handicap system, it is said that you get a handicap for having a chrome towball on your car, or mag wheels on your trailer, if your traler is'nt galvanised you gain a minute, if you have LED trailer lights you lose 2 minutes, new life jacket, dont even ask how much you lose for having a new lifejacket, it even comes down to how your beach wheels have been made and weather they are light or heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 All BS aside, your yardstick will end up depending on the quality of and the number of sailors of your class attending regatta's and titles where these yardsticks are formulated. If you were to have a lot of poor sailors in your class on old heavy boats with old sails sailing a lot of these regattas, it would stand to reason that the class yardstick would fall (ie get slower, or the number would be higher). As there are not very many h14s sailing and very few really good boats around any more that are raced, the yardstick for H14 is likely to be fairly old, where as the windy yardstick as Darcy has said is current and being set by good sailors on good boats. I know that try as I might, a foam super sloop mari will only really sail to its yardstick when you are on the wire almost all the way round the course. This is why Mick (humungus) will often sail cat rigged in regattas rather than Super sloop, so as to dodge the higher yardstick for SS, and he will also decide where the most/better compertition is going to come from and rig accordingly. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hipopp Posted April 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 You will never win on yardstick on a mk1 windy' date=' the current yardstick was established by much lighter and stiffer, foam sandwich boats, your mk1 (even with new race sails and a national champ at the helm) will be 3-5 minutes down, Hobie and Mari, do sail to their current y/sticks. Koonawarra y/sticks for, 14s, have been established over many yrs of mixed 14 racing by the best boats and skippers in the various classes. Mannering Park ASC, runs an annual 14' cat regatta using the Koonawarra y/stick with time allowances for, weight, off the beach rudders, and original multi coloured manufacturers sails, in your case, a stock mk1 with a skipper of 90kg and disk rudders, would gain 7 minutes against a race foamy with skipper under 90kg. It is rare for an older, stock boat to win (Most good skippers will be sailing race rigged), but it has happened.[/quote'] thanks darcy....need to know all that.suspected as much...believe u sell windy parts...how much for a new jib...the largest legal size or i suppose the original jib? john b. multicoloured of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 At Batemans Bay Anzac Regatta, the question was asked if we wanted to go with Koonawarra yardsticks, or the new YV yardsticks. We had Maricat (cat, foam), Maricat (cat, not foam) and Windy (not sure hull, square top, sloop-rigged, 2-up). Koonawarra lists: Windrush - Cat Rig 94 Windrush - Sloop Rig 94 Windrush - Super Sloop 87 YV lists: Windrush 4.3 Cat 92, -3.5 for Square Top Main (SCHRS) Windrush 4.3 Sloop 90, 2 up: –2.5 for Square Top Main (SCHRS) Windrush 4.3 Super Sloop 87, 1 up + Trap: - 2.5 for Square Top Main (SCHRS) At Wallagoot, we clarify the Koonawarra yardstick to mean: Windrush Cat Rig: 1up 94 Windrush Sloop Rig: 2up 94 Windrush Sloop Rig: 1up 90 Windrush Super Sloop: 1up+trapeze 87 In that case we said Koonawarra 94 for sloop windy 2-up was fine. It proved true; they were as quick as the Maris upwind, but slower downwind. This is also an issue at Wallagoot, where a Paper Tiger beats the old Windys by 5-10 minutes each race. What yardstick do you suggest an old mk1 Windy, sloop rig 1-up, should be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hipopp Posted April 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 tony...the windy 14 mark one had a hcap of Wind rush 14 - Cat 100* Windrush 14 - Sloop - Two up 102* according to old records from the eighties or so. See darc's comment above...it sounds like the mark 1 is a dead horse now because of the superior performance of the new windies,sails etc. At LWYC here i have a hcap of 90 or thereabouts which should be for the newer cats. Getting flogged by a hobie 14. This is early days for me i think i can get more out of the mark 1 than i am currently getting so the old rating of 100 might be too generous/ I saw the windy mark 1 on wallagoot once...he flew that boat, sailed it like a man possessed but did not gain a place i believe....sad state of affairs. I personally think a mark 1 should be sloop rigged one up at about 96 -98 comparing it to a hobie 14. The comparison is over many and varied wind conditions where the hobie has advantage. My thoughts only..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 but the most important thing is that you're out sailing and in a fleet which isn't bad. Just enjoy the racing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 1, 2013 Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 To clarify this "sad state of affairs" at Wallagoot; the old Windies do not have adjustable rigs, and use their original 30+year old sails. These 2 factors make the boats slower, regardless of how well they are sailed. These factors can also be upgraded without changing a boat's yardstick; yardsticks indicate the potential of a top racing boat sailed by a top skipper. Applying a special yardstick because boats haven't been maintained or upgraded is not right; that's handicapping, not yardstick correction. When an old, overweight PT with an original non-adjustable sail and old wooden foils races, it is closely matched with the Windies in similar condition. At Wallagoot we run a pointscore series, where we all start together and results are derived from yardstick. The sailors who have invested in newer sails, adjustable controls, and who polish thier foils and do all the other things to make their boats faster, win these races. Fair enough; the money spent and effort put in is rewarded. Of course I'm biased, as I race a good PT and have won the past 3 seasons. I keep encouraging the Windies to upgrade their gear so we can have proper racing. I mean, for about $100 one could fit an adjustable outhaul, which would provide significantly more speed on the reaches. That alone would cut about 3minutes off the 5-10 minute gap. Wallagoot also runs a handicap series, where the slower boats get a headstart, so that we all finish together. Each boat has a unique handicap, calculated so that anyone has a chance of winning. The state of affairs is not so sad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hipopp Posted May 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 W14.... To clarify this "sad state of affairs" at Wallagoot; the old Windies do not have adjustable rigs, and use their original 30+year old sails. These 2 factors make the boats slower, regardless of how well they are sailed. These factors can also be upgraded without changing a boat's yardstick; yardsticks indicate the potential of a top racing boat sailed by a top skipper. Applying a special yardstick because boats haven't been maintained or upgraded is not right; that's handicapping, not yardstick correction. When an old, overweight PT with an original non-adjustable sail and old wooden foils races, it is closely matched with the Windies in similar condition. At Wallagoot we run a pointscore series, where we all start together and results are derived from yardstick. The sailors who have invested in newer sails, adjustable controls, and who polish thier foils and do all the other things to make their boats faster, win these races. Fair enough; the money spent and effort put in is rewarded. Of course I'm biased, as I race a good PT and have won the past 3 seasons. I keep encouraging the Windies to upgrade their gear so we can have proper racing. I mean, for about $100 one could fit an adjustable outhaul, which would provide significantly more speed on the reaches. That alone would cut about 3minutes off the 5-10 minute gap. Wallagoot also runs a handicap series, where the slower boats get a headstart, so that we all finish together. Each boat has a unique handicap, calculated so that anyone has a chance of winning. The state of affairs is not so sad! Tony I am a newbie to this game of sailing and am a little disappointed that each boat is not rated on its design individuality i.e mark 1 windy compared to mark 2 example. Thanks to this forum i have had explained the variances to models that make for competitiveness so up to me to get competitive....regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 2, 2013 Report Share Posted May 2, 2013 Agree; taking these comments on board, I could propose at WLBC to adopt a yardstick of 96 for a Mark1 Windy sloop (1-up); with specifications of Mark1 hull, original pin-top sail, and non-adjustable rig. Justification is that it's hard to imagine that hull alone would make that much difference. For example the difference in foam-hulled Maris is 2 yardstick points, not 6. I'm glad the PTs kept it simple; 1 yardstick for all, not these 6 permutations of hull and rigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Hi Tony, methinks that Wallagoot W14 sailors need to see a new W14 in action - which I'm happy to do - maybe on a weekend b4 the season starts - to whet their appetite for what the design is capable of... only then will the potential be realised... I might even persuade Warren Pfeiffer to join me - as we do need to go where the potential for growth is apparent... I'll keep you posted... In the meantime, tell them to check out the slide-show on our website... maybe this will get them thinking? http://www.herohoists.com.au/windrushcatamarans.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Thanks for that. Last Saturday in September (footy grand final weekend), we have a warm-up race. That would be an ideal day. Of course you're welcome to come and sail with us anytime. We had a modern Windy, "Silver Fox", blast around a few times. He was an inspiring sight, and led to a club member buying a newer Windy. Newer sails and modern, adjustable controls would be a treat for budget conscious battlers. What's your preferred method for anchoring the clew? Do you go with a sail slug, or a track and car system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 11, 2013 Report Share Posted May 11, 2013 Never seen a track & car system - not class legal. There should be a slug attached to the clew of the sail... the end of the boom has a double roller built-in. Simply place a block on the clew to give quick & easy adjustment... Rove some heavy shock-cord thru the clew eye, and back to a cleat (or other point) on the boom. That gives the tension to put depth in the sail off-wind - see attached pix... [ATTACH=CONFIG]1389[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1390[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1391[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1392[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1393[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just One More Posted May 11, 2013 Report Share Posted May 11, 2013 Thanks for that. Last Saturday in September (footy grand final weekend), we have a warm-up race. That would be an ideal day. Of course you're welcome to come and sail with us anytime. We had a modern Windy, "Silver Fox", blast around a few times. He was an inspiring sight, and led to a club member buying a newer Windy. Newer sails and modern, adjustable controls would be a treat for budget conscious battlers. What's your preferred method for anchoring the clew? Do you go with a sail slug, or a track and car system? Maybe if Mr Planet would like to come down on the second weekend in march next year you might be surprised to see just how quick the Woolagoot windies get around the track. Give Alrid a new windy and you would go home humbled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 Maybe if Mr Planet would like to come down on the second weekend in march next year you might be surprised to see just how quick the Woolagoot windies get around the track. Give Alrid a new windy and you would go home humbled. Mr Planet here... never said I was even close to the front of the fleet... just that I had a newer boat that some sailors may like to see - or hop on for a spin... if I can get Warren down there too - well, he is the guy who knows how to make a Windrush 14 fly... But I certainly am 'humbled' by the implied 'dig' - I'm simply attempting to assist where possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just One More Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 Just a slight dig. But really I have been fortunate to be able to sail at Wallagoot a fair bit over the last 2 years as I was living down that way for work. One thing I have noticed is that there is a lot windys sailing at different clubs. These guys and girls mainly have the GRP boats and don't need to upgrade to a foamy. They're got great competition as is and isn't that's what's it all about. We at Port Kembla have gun boats to be competitive and I'd bet the same at Manno. These other clubs don't need to update and they're not interested in national s or states. It might be better to organise a back to windows regatta at a local regatta where people can sail, tell a lot of lies over a few beers and enjoy the weekend. Otherwise I can't see the situation changing very much. Paul L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 We do have a similar thing at Manno. Most of us sail the old solid Mari's and we find that competition is good. If I was able to tack properly each and every time I'd be right up Micks transom so as far as I'm concerned it's not the boat but the ijit on the stick. We still have Mari #16 which is still just as competitive as the others (there is less build difference between the Mari's than Windy's as I understand). If you want to be out in front then by all means get the new stuff but it's quite lonely out there! I do find it a bit surprising that there are so many different settings and therefore yardsticks but in reality we have cat, and super sloop only. I don't think there are any supersloops that aren't foam so the settings are quite simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 I think this is starting to get off topic...but if you want my 2 cents worth, it's about time that those guys who simply want to be at the front of the fleet, and who are able - start to think about how to promote the class - instead of how to win... and I think this is true of both the 2 'dominant' 14ft plastic cat classes. PT's seem to be doing just fine... but Windrush and Maricat don't seem to be able to attract new sailors - and it comes as more of a shock when they do... My offer to travel a LONG way to Wallagoot was simply a gesture of solidarity - to help promote the class - and that's irrespective of me being the 'casual' NSW dealer... it's for the class - I've owned a Windrush 14 since the early 80's... and I still LUV the design... it's still the MOST versatile 14 footer out there... and has some unique aspects that were engineered into the original boat that set it apart from other designs... It's a shame that NOBODY else is prepared to travel any distance out of their own backyard to show some solidarity at other regattas... and Port Kembla is no different... I'm sure Tony Sanderson would have made it if he could have to Kurnell for their Top Gun Regatta or Cock of the Bay, but apparently no one else was interested... Likewise nobody at Manno was prepared to make the 'considerable ' trip... Windrush or Maricat. Kurnell has an active Junior Group - but try as I might - I cannot get even 1 more boat to attend a clinic, fun sail day – or anything else down there... The Nacra 430's seem to be able to do that... funny - huh? NOT... And then we wonder why the classic 14ft plastic cats aren't seen as a 'serious' consideration for new sailors? If you wanana call that a 'dig' - you'd be spot on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Maricats do attract new sailors, and, old sailors returning to the sport, Mannering Parks cat fleet started with 4, $300 Maris, with a bit of effort and little else but word of mouth and the promise of cheap racing, todays fleets can get to 40 cats, (mostly 14s) and boats that cost under $2500, figure prominently in yardstick results. As for travelling, I have trailed boats, South to Melb, Nth to Cairns, and all ports between as well as many inland dams in Vic, NSW, ACT and Qld, I still travel occasionally, but the competition and friendship at my local clubs is usually enough these days. For interest, in the numerous class boats I have sailed, the only production boat fleets that I have found competitive, regardless of age, are 14' Maricats, (Grp, not foam) and 16' Corsair dinghys, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 I wasn't pointing the fingah at any1 - and i'm sure that Darcy has been a proactive and outstanding ambassador in the past - it's simply a phenomena I've noticed since returning to the class after a long absence. Both Windrush and Maricat Associations are associations in name only... and the feeling is that 'something' needs to be done to regenerate interest in the classes that originally nurtured catamaran sailing... But this is off-topic again... I think a new thread should start to explore how we can get bigger 14ft fleets at more than 2 clubs... at least we should think about nominating a few major regattas where we commit to getting at least 4 to 6 of each 14ft 'plasti-cat' competing... any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Darcy is an outstanding ambassador now and always will be. Rohan, you're pointing to an era that is quite different from now. My Careel 18 was another good example. Built around the same time, 70's and 80's. They used to have 30 of them racing on Saturdays off Sandy Point on Pittwater. Mrs Rose the wife of the builder used to start the races from the shore (along with her deck chair and thermos). I sail and race at Manno and whinge when there is no racing in winter but I won't be travelling anywhere other than near my home and really no longer like sailing when its cold. Simple as that. My life doesn't revolve around sailing anything like it did when I was in my teens. Spending 25 hours a week sitting on a train to get to and from work (because there's nothing up here that will provide the same income to feed a large mortgage) means that there are a lot of other things that have to be attended to when I do get time over the weekend. Living up here also of course means that I have the space to put my boat(s) which I wouldn't in most new Sydney suburbs. No, things have changed and you'll find this type of conversation everywhere you look. Thankfully the manufacturers of boats during that heyday built them reasonably well so they continue to provide enjoyment to us now. some of the Careel 18's that have had a makeover come out better than they were new. Look forward to seeing you, and anyone that likes to travel, but for me it'll be up here at the Lake. James PS: one of the best uses of threads like this is to take it off on a tangent! Follows the traditions set down anywhere you'll find interested people. We used to make an art of it on Careel.com and it occurs on SailingAnarchy too although there it generally gets into a nasty shouting match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mako Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 There are other clubs that do sail 14 foot cats that often gets overlooked. At Concord and Ryde Sailing Club we get up to 18 x 14 foot cats down there with fleet of approx 12 most of the time. mostly maris a few paper tigers and a Nacra 430. I am trying to encourage a number of these boats to travel next season. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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