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Proposed new riggs and feedback


humungus2
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Hi guys, just putting it out their. Because we will be holding an AGM at the States, it's the only time to make changes if we want to.

Lets say cat rigged with trap. This will help the newer sailors ease into super sloop.

Lets say super sloop spinnaker rigg. (SSS) For the guys who think they can handle it.

I am not talking square top mains but maybe running the smaller jib with the spinnaker.

We would need the Manufactures aproval.

The Manufacture is considering a set of dimonds to stiffen the mast for the heavier guys on trap. He is also going to make an adjustable mast base (rotation)

The manufacture will need to look at the structual side of things. They want to keep the class going. They invested a huge amount of money into haveing jigs and molds made that are only suited for the Maricat. They are listing to us so heres a chance to have your say. If you think the boats are to pricey or you would purchase a set of hulls at a certain price. let me know. Give us some feedback.

Your thoughts guys.

These changes are inexpencive and optional.

I feel as I am sure we all do that the only way to move the class forward is to get the younger generation involved and these changes will allow the boats to go quicker with the extra weight that we seem to be carring as we get old.

The class measurer will be at the states so make sure you are up to spec. Plastic coated stays and striker. The list goe's on.

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Why not Mylar square top mains and kites (the windies changed to Mylar sails)? It may attract newcomers into an already established class, the young kids look at the modern boats and they see that they are all carrying square tops and kites and they want to sail something that looks like those more modern rigs. As I sail sloop, I know my son would like the look of a more modern rig and it may start people thinking about ordering new boats again. This could be a can of worms?

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Why would you want to splinter a class into the have and the have not's,

That's why a lot of guys sail mari's, so it's not an arms race.

You start putting spreaders onto masts and adjustable rotation, It changes the whole rig dynamics.

It's about a class of boats being able to sail up to a start line and know the guy next to him has very

very close to the same gear as he has.

Just my 2 cents worth

Richard

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I don't have a foam maricat with radial cut sails which i think would be more of the have and have nots but i would probably be prepared to upgrade the rig to be more competitive before i could afford a new boat, plus the maricat is raced in 3 configurations which is not one design and when you throw in the foam boats you have 6 x different boats and yardsticks effectively, and if it encourages new people into the class I'd at least like to see it discussed with the pros and cons. Sure you will have a time while people change over but the windies seemed to cope with that ok.

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The only windies at states and nationals are foam, or, rarely ( bulkhead) with mylar sails, the square top is currently a disadvantage because of the 3% yardstick penalty with no proven performance increase. I don't believe that the current simple and strong rig can be improved, but I would be happy to be proven wrong. Mick, try the mods you have suggested and give some feedback. I would like to see a spin rig Mari against a similar rigged Nacra 430.

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John Merle has a spin kit for his foamie, I have never seen it used, and John has never said much about it. He also has a square top main, but again, no feed back. Diamonds should not be needed, the ribbed mast section as was used on Hydras would be more than stiff enough to carry you fat boys.

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I sympathise with the people that have had mast problems, I'd guess the standard of extrusion may not be what it used to be.

The PT's have the right idea for this - shove a length of carbon tube up the inside. It actually looks like the inside diameter of the mari mast is >50mm which perchance is the outside diameter of most windsurfer masts. I understand also that Moths have recently moved from 50mm to 40mm masts. I've used bits of carbon mast for whisker / spinnaker poles / prodders etc and they're very light and strong. Apparently it helps prevent breakages. PT masts cost a massive amount ($250 or so), Mari masts cost a lot more.

KO

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Hmmm..... my turn

The main appeal for many people who own and sail a Maricat is its simplicity.

In cat rigged form...10 minutes to rig...one sail..a buoyancy vest and you are away.

**************

Most Maricat sailors keep their sails until they literally fall apart...while other classes buy new sails every year.

I liked the look of the experimental Mylar square top sail made and sailed by Rohan from Mid Coast Sails. Early indications are that they may be cheaper.

In my opinion (other than a decent sail) the major modifications to be made to a standard Maricat to go quicker and handle better: is to rack the mast back, and to increase the mast rotation to allow the mast to bend more. Even the fat boys increase the rotation but I need to rotate it lots for my light weight. With a "standard" cut sail and without the extra mast rotation and mast bend (hence flatten the sail) I find it very hard to sail the boat in stronger wind.

While learning there is nothing stopping a sailor just rigging the boat with the main and a trap. I'm sure a club can come up with a suitable club handicap to suit. And most learner sailors are more interested in their development and personal club handicap than an official VYC or Koonawarra yardstick.

Same with a little jib...they came with the Mk 1 boats....sheeted off the front cross beam.....probably made the boat slower but were great to assist with tacking.

There has been an apparent lack of interest in the class from BCC for a number a years, hopefully this signals a change of position...even an indication on their website that it is possible to buy a new Maricat would be a step forward.

So...my summary:

Investigate a simple mast rotation system, as long as it does not detract from the simple safe system (no catch points) on the current boats.

Investigate and experiment with the square top mylar sail.

Keep the masts simple....no diamonds..........maybe investigate internal stiffening (as suggested by Jim).

Not sure about kites on a Maricat.

For State and National Event: retain the three classes...Cat Rigged, Sloop, Super Sloop.

Added subdivisions at the committee's discretion..traditionally "Classic Cat, Classic Sloop, Classic Super Sloop, Junior, Handicap etc

Encourage some experimentation at club and maybe regatta level, but keep the integrity of the class for States and Nats.

I don't think having multiple classes running off the same basic platform is a problem.....look at Lasers..three sail categories and about 6 age divisions.

These days I'm not sure about the definition of a "veteran" Maricat sailor.....maybe over 80 !!

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One reason for this discussion is that I have been bending masts, and it is the general consensus that the mast bending is because of the new masts being made out of a less suitable grade of Al. This comes about through lack of demand for Al masts in Aust therefore Al rolling/extruding factories do not have the throughput of sufficeint quantity to justify extruding masts out of a grade that they will not really use for anyother purpose, couple this with the fact that they really then need to be tempered, and Maricat section is only one profile that is needed. (All this comes from my sailmaker who is a well known top knotch sailor of a 14 foot cat). I have gone through 2 masts in about 2 years or one mast per season, my old mast (secondhand, came with the boat) seems not to bend and stay bent (maybe out of the correct grade). I replaced this mast as I had broken the side wall (where the gooseneck was pushing against) this was replaced with new mast No, 1 basically the 1st time I used this mast it bent.

Ok I use trap and I'm probly stronger than your average Mari sailor so I tend to wank that mainsheet on hard when I get on the wire, these 2 factors also account for the mast bend in the new masts, (but it doesnt happen with my old mast). Therefore the manufacturer is looking at ways to stiffen the masts for us fat boys who want to use trap and sail SS. I dont want to not use the trap, and all of those of you who have sailed against me when I am on trap would have to agree the boat flys once you get out there, and theres just something great about skimming over the water like a bird held up only by a thin wire.

So I for one am keen to see some way of stiffening the mast, (cause buying masts is getting a bit exxy for me) and a way to adjust the rotation back from where we have put it to is a plus for me too, (short of me buying a new mast base and re cutting the stops, just not as much as before). I love sailing my Mari, I love sailing with the guys that sail maris (and most 14 sailors too) and I dont want to go to another class, but if I keep on bending the gear it is a road I may have to look at.

Phil

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Wow 16 people viewing this section all on a Sunday morning what are we all just bored or are we waiting for the sailing season to start, anyway I've got a picky of the bent mast in question, this bend happened while I was sailing sloop at Budgiwoi with my 9 year old daughter, no I did'nt capsize it (if it was due to capsize I reckon the mast would have bent midway up anyway, not down in the area where they normally bend while you are sailing). Yes Jimbo did mention the carbon fibre solution, but I feel the electrolisis factor needs to be better addressed, (carbon must be electrically isolated from the Aluminium, other wise it will eat the al away, carbon being higher up the periodic table then Aluminuim) and I dont want to stuff up over $1000.00 of new mast internally where I cant see what is going on, at least if it bends I can see whats wrong there.

As to letting sailors under a certain weight go cat rigged trapeze I feel it may help the younger junior sailors to get a leg up into the class.

This is as Mick said just discussion too, lets discuss what we each feel is the way to go with the class. Now is the time to get all this talked about, and somewhat sorted.

I'm not really in favour of a spinnaker, although it may give the 430's cause for alarm ("now the maris have a spin, how are we ever going to get in front of them now")

Phil

post-6864-13778265977649_thumb.jpg

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Just thinking about the thing of kids seeing newer boats with wacky the noo gear on them, has anyone noticed how many herons the still seem to be sailing, surely they are not a wacky the noo class, yet they still seem to have a largish fleet. This is a photo from the schools regatta, check how many herons to the one mari in this photo.

Just saying.

post-6864-13778265978007_thumb.jpg

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Yes the kids not keen on the Maricats as they are.

No need for me to get a 2nd Mari as the daughter informed me they are plain ugly and she has decided that she does not wish to sail one..Sail choice was the deal breaker I think,basically the plain sails of the Maricat have no appeal when compared to other classes..

Too plain ..

NEXT!!

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Square-top rigs

The development of square-top sails was done along with development of flexible masts, with the goal of creating an "automatic rig". Bethwaite's book "Higher Performance Sailing" details the history of this.

It seems that there is little benefit in sticking a square-top on the Windrush, while retaining a very rigid mast. It would need a mast with a more flexible top to allow it to de-power in gusts, become automatic, and then gain advantage.

I'm one of very few who have reinforced a mast on a PT, and have gained performance advantage from it. I beat 2m of Laser top-section tube into an oval shape, then rammed it inside the PT mast. Not pretty, not light, but works. By reinforcing the lower section, I'm able to hold more drive in the lower & mid section of the sail, while the top flexes and de-powers. I also use very loose stays, to allow the rig to sag to leewards in the middle; and to windwards at the top. This also helps the automatic function of the rig. Others, such as current National & International Champs, don't have reinforced masts, and are very good at manually adjusting their sails.

If you go to a square-top, then you really should go to flexible, carbon-tipped masts to match it. The only price I found with a short search is for a 49er: $4250. That's substantially more than an alumium extruded mast, eg the PT mast is $280.

Mast rotation

Rod has pointed out that your mast-step controls rotation, and can be customised to allow more rotation (and more flex) for light skippers. The retains the advantage of a simple rig, which is cheaper and quicker to set up. The alternative is a free-rotating mast base, with a spanner and adjustment system. I'd keep the simple rotation system of mast base limited rotation.

Bending masts

Most Maricats I've seen hang their mainsheet blocks a long way aft, even 30cm aft of the rear beam. When you sheet in, this creates a huge amount of force driving the boom forwards into the lower mast, which some say helps mast bend and flattening of the sail. I've found more advantage in moving them forwards on the boom, so that they fit one above the other when going to windwards. This makes it easier to pull the leech tight and keep an efficient shape going to windwards. The mast bends more at the top, rather than at the gooseneck. Use the outhaul & downhaul to flatten the sail.

Changing the mainsheet setup may solve the problems of masts bending.

Also, having a knot in the mainsheet that prevents the boom from pressing on the sidestays. This knot will save your mast in extreme winds. If the boom presses on the stays, it creates a huge amount of downwards force, which combines with the bending forces in causing mast failure.

the future of Maricats

The great beauty and advantages of Maricats is that they are cheap, simple and robust. I can be confident in overloading the boat while taking friends out for a blast, and the next day racing the same boat competitively.

If I were looking for a more complicated, racing boat, I have my PT. If I want new-tech square-top, assy kite trickiness, there is the Nacra430 or F14.

The problem is not Maricat design, it is just that we need to get more people on them.

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Than for the feed back. I think we will keep it going till next Sunday and then sumerise what has been said. I agree the white sails are plain and thats why we went to radial cut. The inferier colour cloth can be used in the less stressfull areas. You can even buy a girly colour sail cloth. Just look at Marks sail. I am not sure but I think Mylar only comes in clear and Kevlar is a standard colour as well. I am trying to make the modifiations/changes as inexpencive as posible. This will allow sailors to tweek/play for minimal cost. Tweeking also educates. You make changes on the asumption that you are going to go faster and you usually have to understand why you are making the changes. It gets skipper and crew talking and working together.

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On the flip side..

I am the new proud owner of her Foamie.

Don't need to find another Mari for myself this season and saved the hassles of Dbl trailer.

Such is the appeal of the Maricat with white sails,even a top quality SS is not attractive to the younger kids who have grown up with clear Kevlar sails and Carbon Fibre hulls.(foam pffft)

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The kids do have a point though.

Maricat sailors speak of the Foam hull as if it were the ultimate.

The other morning we were working on our Carbon 16ft skiff and both daughters were taking the pizz outta me saying the skiff isn't too bad "but it's not foam-sandwich"

Yes it does put things into their perspective..foam sandwich is noahs ark stuff to the kids not cutting edge/front of the fleet stuff..

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Not suggesting the intro of carbon but gives an idea on the attitudes of kids and the opinions they have when they look at a Maricat..The class prides itself on history and the early Mk I is nearly identical to the Mk II.

The very thing that makes it attractive to Mari sailors is what others see as dated..

The into of newer sails would attract more youngsters to the class and also improve performance of early hulls at minimal cost.

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Square-top rigs

The development of square-top sails was done along with development of flexible masts, with the goal of creating an "automatic rig". Bethwaite's book "Higher Performance Sailing" details the history of this.

It seems that there is little benefit in sticking a square-top on the Windrush, while retaining a very rigid mast. It would need a mast with a more flexible top to allow it to de-power in gusts, become automatic, and then gain advantage.

I'm one of very few who have reinforced a mast on a PT, and have gained performance advantage from it. I beat 2m of Laser top-section tube into an oval shape, then rammed it inside the PT mast. Not pretty, not light, but works. By reinforcing the lower section, I'm able to hold more drive in the lower & mid section of the sail, while the top flexes and de-powers. I also use very loose stays, to allow the rig to sag to leewards in the middle; and to windwards at the top. This also helps the automatic function of the rig. Others, such as current National & International Champs, don't have reinforced masts, and are very good at manually adjusting their sails.

If you go to a square-top, then you really should go to flexible, carbon-tipped masts to match it. The only price I found with a short search is for a 49er: $4250. That's substantially more than an alumium extruded mast, eg the PT mast is $280.

...cut...

Just to keep it in perspective - the square top definitely doesn't need a softer top. In fact, controlling a square top properly is reliant on a decent mast to support it.

Carbon Fibre by its very nature, is stiffer than aluminium (or fibreglass), so it goes against the event the choice of use of the material if you want to make a flexible tip rig.

Bethwaites book, and its section on 'automatic rigs' is more of a history lesson than a bible on the modern large head area rigs. 18fter rigs as an example are now stiffer than they have ever been, seeking higher and higher modulus carbon to stiffen the upper mast and have sufficient structure to hold up the increasing large headed mainsails. Mid leech sag and a hooked head are the biggest issues, and it is the talent of the sail designer to make it all work correctly.

Anyway, I won't add any bias into this discussion, as I obviously have a commercial interest as a sailmaker. I will however note, that the square head mylar sail I used at Toukley, was actually purposely made 0.4m2 SMALLER than a stock sail, and in conditions that should have favoured more sail area - proved quite competitive i think ;) As a price comparison, a production sail the same would retail for about $1300 (as compared to my dacron ones which are $1300!)

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Talking of 18 foot skiffs and fat-head sails, it appears they use tapered masts, and stays to stiffen the lower sections. The professive flexibility towards the top provides the 'automatic rig' function. Look at the bend in this mast, and compare to your stiff, uniform, Maricat mast:

86793233_801d79b50e_z.jpg

We've seen some comparisons of fat-head versus pin-top sails on the same mast, which seem to show minor advantage for the square-top. I'd suggest that a higher-aspect sail shape is more efficient, regardless of whether you achieve the 'automatic' de-powering.

What would be great is to compare the same square-top sail on a uniform versus a tapered (or diamond stayed) mast; my suggestion is that a relatively more flexible top will allow automatic de-powering, and this will offer a great performance advantage.

Comparing carbon versus aluminium, check out these stress/strain curves:

1-s2.0-S0266353809004230-gr4.jpg

The top set are carbon-composite, while the lower curve is pure Aluminium. What the graph shows is:

- the initial part of the curve is steeper for carbon; it does not deflect as much under the same load, ie; stiffer

- the part of the curve which is a straight line (in which the material flexes and returns to its original shape), is much longer for carbon.

If you drop a line straight down from where the point of elastic limit where the line begins to curve right, carbon has elongated further than the aluminium. (the elastic limit for carbon is around 150Mpa, where it has elongated to about 2.5, while the Al reaches its limit at about 40Mpa, elongation 1.3).

ie; you can bend Carbon about twice as far as aluminium before it stays bent or breaks.

The exact characteristics will vary with Al alloy and carbon construction, but I'd suggest a carbon mast will be lighter, stiffer and when loaded up will flex further than the Al before it fails.

In hulls, carbon can make a lighter, stiffer hull than foam or other materials. Some carbon PT hulls came in 20kg underweight (50kg is minimum for hull platform). If you ignore class rules, would an all-carbon Maricat be faster? Yes, but not that much. The lighter weight would allow it accelerate more quickly (F=ma), and it would sit a tiny bit higher in the water, reducing drag.

However, the water will still have to flow around the assymetrical, banana shaped hulls, and this will always produce drag. Drag will exponentially increase with velocity, so you effectively reach a top speed at which the boat wont go much faster regardless of how much wegiht you save or extra power your rig might develop. Straightening out the keel, and reducing nose-diving with forward buoyancy has been shown as the way to reduce drag. Alternatively, get the boat planing or hydrofoiling above the water.

I find it hard to understand this notion that a square-top mylar sail will attract kids because it is more fashionable. The few occasions I've seen kids out sailing, they were on Optis and Laser 4.7s; all with white Dacron sails. I can't see either Opti of Laser 4.7 as particularly attractive; they are chosen because it's what the other kids sail and what the clubs provide.

Have a squiz at the list of boats that entered the Belmost Combined High Schools champs. Not many on this list had square-top mylar sails:

http://www.topyacht.net.au/results/2013/chs/combinedhs/SGrp2.htm

What might attract kids to Maricats are events where they can sail them. If you check out YA's Gemba report, which investigate how to increase participation in sailing, they say to make sailing more accessible, and reduce costs. There is no mention of square-top sails:

http://www.yachting.org.au/?ID=54827

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Interested:

Windrush have a square top, and spiniker,

Arrows have a square top.

Paper tigers have coloured sails.

F14 have square top, carbon and spinikers.

KIDS are not rushing to any of these classes either.

Maybe they just don't want to sail 14 foot cats.

as far as will different materials make them faster. YES obviously they will.

Will that affect results NO. if everybody upgrades then the people who currently go fast will continue to go faster and the people who do not sail fast will probably not significantly improve their boat speed because they are looking for a winged keel to help them win when they need to practice sailing more. The gap between the front and the back boats would probably just get bigger.

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Rig changes:

If we are going to make any changes maybe we should formalise the small things that already take place:

1. Allow for casting stops to be ground out to a maximum V on the mast base.

2. Formalise that the jib lead anchor points can be inside the hull position rather than on edge of deck.

Low cost additional rules:

Our class does not allow Barber haulers. "a device to pull jib leads toward the centre line of the boat" definition from YA.

What about formalising a system that allows controlling jib leach twist down wind?? this would definitely increase boat performance in winds up to 15knots and would cost people almost nothing and would give the kids sailing up front another rope to learn about.

Yes foam sandwich is now old. I recall when we changed the rules to allow us to use vynalester resin in the hulls. I suggested that rather than just make that change also change to allow for other new products as well such as epoxy and Kevlar (they were pretty cutting edge at that time) it all got poo pood.

We have had some minor structural problems with the sloop rig boats. Allowing for more exotic material may help make the boats stronger. (ask the manufacturer what he thinks needs to change for a better quality hull)

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Yes carbon fibre boats can be stronger and more rigid, but not always. For a boat that is supposed to be entry level, would you not want something that can take a bit of punishment and not go to pieces. Is carbon fibre really something that is suitable for kids to learn on.

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