Maricat Yardsticks. Should all Maris be on the Foam boat Y/stick?

[darcy1945]

At the recently held, and highly successful, Maricat State Titles, all results were for finishing order (No y/s applied for Foam or GRP hulls) second hand info, tells me that the association is considering the foam boat y/s should be applied to all Maris, regardless of age or hull construction. I believe this move will kill the recent revival, that the Maris have been experiencing. To have your say, go to the Mari Facebook page.  

[darcy1945]

Do not let the Maricat class go the same way that the Windrush has gone (Where only foam hull boats sail in state and national titles (All 6 of them) In the interest of bigger Maricat fleets, only. Darcy. 

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Agree with you Darcy.  Looking at the Windy 'fleet' at Manno compared with the Mari fleet.

 

All that effort over the years will go to waste.  I think the Brass Monkey was also done on the one y/s which leaves a bit of a bad taste but then I don't have any skin in the game any more.

[knobblyoldjimbo]

So looking at the results, certainly for race 1 with 45secs between Rohan and Mick then the champs may actually be Rohans. Is this correct?

[Pointed Reply]

Don't get confused...

 

State and National Titles are different to all other regatta's.

The State and National Constitutions clearly state that there are only three classes of Maricat 4.3.   Cat, Sloop and Super Sloop.

Class Champions are awarded on scratch times.

The association also chooses to award other trophies for "Classic" , handicap and novelty awards.

 

Clubs and Regattas can use what ever yardstick they choose:   .VYC, Koonawarra, or the "Darcy" Rule.

The "Darcy" Rule gives allowances for everything, old sails, old rudders...even for being "over weight" !

 

The Maricat Assoc can not dictate what a Yardstick will be.

VYC and Koonawarra build up their Yardsticks from results.

The results from the States last weekend do not indicate a big difference between glass and foam boats.

The big difference (as always) was the skill of the skipper and the condition/age/cut of the sails. 

 

All Yardsticks have issues, the Darcy Rule nominates old Multi-coloured sails for an allowance.

There are now some very old daggy whilte sails around, so why not give them an allowance at Manno ?

 

It took VYC 30 years to add Super Sloops to their list so I'm sure nothing will change there too quickly.

 

I know if I want to get back to the front of the fleet, I need to practice more and probably buy a new sail.

 

 

So lets just get on with sailing.

[darcy1945]

I have been an avid Mari sailor for over 15 years (a drop in the bucket compared to some) and have done all I can to promote the class. The fleet size attained for the states is the best for many years but with the move to have 1 yardstick only, all GRP boats will be UNFAIRLY penalised. Yours in Maricat sailing. Darcy. 

[interested]

The Foam Sandwich hulls are faster.No arguement.

If the GRP hulls are comparable then why the price difference?Obviously the 2 different hulls need different Yardsticks or as Darcy is saying the only boats to compete will be the newer Foamies.If the class decides to use only 1 yardstick the decision will also make the GRP hulls worthless and turn it into the haves V have NOTS..This was the very argument used for retaining restricted Sail materials,to keep the class closer.

Maybe the class  will end up with snazzy Kevlar Sails and  full Carbon construction if class parity is disregarded?

[Pointed Reply]

Agree, all thing being equal, the newer boats (which are foam sandwich construction) are stiffer, lighter.... newer and ...yes (sometimes) quicker.

 

But again don't get confused.

 

The Maricat Association does not set the Yardsticks for clubs or regattas.

Clubs, can and will continue to use differential Yardsticks.

 

The Maricat Association owns the class specification and it has not made any move to change the rigid specifications which were written in 1979.

All boats are expected to meet that specification.

There is no suggestion that materials in the hull or sails or equipment be changed.

The boats are strictly "One-Design".........but not one age..........

 

 

 

 

The boats are different prices because of the age, condition and on equipment.

I recently sold a good Mk 2 glass boat with all the good gear and good sails which will compete with any other boat....but it is still 25 years old.

If you pay $500 for a neglected boat with old sails then it will be slower and bits will break.

 

The boats at the front of the fleet are all good boats with good sails and good sailors.

 

But to get into sailing, as either a weekend sailor or as a step to the big time... at a bargain price then it is hard to go past a $1000 Maricat.

[interested]

Looks like the Maricat new committee has some ruling issues to sort out.

They are keen to attract new crews to the class but at same time some crews suggest  leaving or boycotting events over rule implementation by the very same new committee.

1 yardstick will not give the parity required for such a wide variation and age of hulls as Darcy has posted.

Will be interested to see what happens in class over this season before making the decision to stick with the class or not.

Interested or maybe not ?

[exhogger]

What would / should be the yardstick for a 4.0 Mari with an old rainbow sail No 469 with a 'cruising' (handkerchief) jib ?. I can't find any specs for a 4.0 anywhere.

Ross.

[Pointed Reply]

Ross,

 

I take it you managed to fix your boat...

 

VYC does not list Maricat 4.0 .......but I seem to remember them being 110 or something.

 

One used to race at Benalla a few years ago...owned by the guy who now runs the Blokarts.

 

You will probably need to negotiate a handicap with AWYC....

 

I aim to be at AWYC for Sail Inland 16/17 November...........might see you there.

[exhogger]

Thanks Rod, thats about what they give me at Yarrawonga, as for AWYC I'll have to see how far the water is from the shore as they some times pull the plug out of the Hume. Hopefully I'll get there.

[tonyquoll]

In other classes, the main reason foam hulled boats are faster than the older chopped-strand mat & fibreglass ones (GRP?), is that they're typically 10kg lighter.

So I'm curious where you say "the rigid specifications which were written in 1979. All boats are expected to meet that specification."
Does that spec include weight?

And, do the foam hulls comply?

Or are the old fibreglass ones overweight?

With PTs, the hull platform must weigh at least 50kg, so timber, foam and carbon-kevlar-wanker all compete fairly evenly. Old fibreglass ones usually weigh 60+ and are not so good.
At Wallagoot we've 6 yardsticks for your Maris, because there's cat rigged, sloop rigged(2-up), and super-sloop (trapeze, 1-up), then 2 of each for the regular or foam hull.
Our list is sourced from Koonawarra, VY and others. It was recently updated to include the Weta class, who have thankfully said 1-design, no rig changes, all hulls the same.
The Wallagoot compilation of cat yardsticks: http://thebegavalley.org.au/uploads/media/cat_yardsticks.doc

[interested]

Good question Tony.

Was the official Maricat minimum weight altered with the introduction of Foam hulls or do Foamies carry additional lead to make up the difference "as with other classes"?

It was interesting at Taipan Nats to see every boat at weigh in carry additional lead and yet this weight issue has never been raised in the Maricats.

Also it is interesting to hear skippers describe their GRP Maricats as "one of the lightest GRP Maris around"..What does this mean exactly ?

Will this weight discrepancy between different boats be addressed by the new committee?

If the class is striving for parity as we have been informed then what is the variation between a MkI and a Foamy?On the scales it should be ZERO difference with the foamies forced to carry extra lead.

Plenty of questions being asked about the 2 different hull constructions and Yardsticks but not many answers being provided.

Simple solution is weigh a early MkI and have this as minimum for ALL.If 10kgs of lead is needed to be added to Foamies then implement the rules in the interest of Parity or all this talk about rebuilding the class will be in vain and like others have stated the only boats at Titles will be the 10kg lighter Foamies.

#will these questions be answered by the new committee or just placed in the "too hard" basket?

It also amazed me that at the recent State Titles it was said some boats were launched from a nearby Caravan Park and never went near the clubhouse..Does this mean NO boats were weighed before the titles?

Every class State and Nat Title has to have boats weighed before they can race and most crews can tell you exactly what class minimum is and what their own boat weighs (over or under official minimum)

Off top of my head:

16ft skiff min 76kgs

MG14 min 67Kgs

etc etc etc

Maricats min = who knows/cares ?

[Pointed Reply]

We can go through this again....

 

The original 1979 Class specifications say that a Maricat, cat rigged, ready to sail (platform, rigging, sails mast boom) has a minimum weight of 95 kgs.

 

The newer boats meet that specification.......most of the older boats are heavier..........

 

 

A bunch of the foam boats were weighed and they were found to meet the 95 kg limit.

A bunch of Mark I and Mark II glass boats were weighed..............they weighed from about 103 kgs to 125 kgs.

 

The older boats are probably heavier due to a number of reasons: poorer materials control during construction, maybe water absorption, repairs, general old age.

 

Sweet 16 (probably the older Maricat still sailing) is very close to minimum weight. It is one of the original 14ft Maricats with small gunnels and narrower shape.

It has also been modified with hatch boxes removed, stripped and refinished. 

 

 

..

So Interested you are suggesting that we find the heaviest boat and add 30kg of lead to a new boat..........how about the heaviest skipper,,,then add another 30kg for a light skipper. Should we all still use 35 year old blown out multicoloured sails too.........how about masts with welded repairs....old spade rudders..........saggy old centre laced tramps..............and not wear seat belts when we drive to regattas.....wear body shirts and platform shoes and big hair..........

[interested]

Sarcastic PC BS was the response I expected.

Thanks for answering so swiftly.

Its attitudes like this that has me looking for a Nacra.This class is a basket case.

You say the Foamies are 95Kgs and some old MkI cats are 120kgs..Then split the 25Kg weight difference and make the minimum weights for a Mari 95 + 12.5Kgs(average) and implement a min weight of 107.5kgs.

This rule change would cater for all Maricat owners  and not just the select few who own a Foamie.

The fact that many Foamie owners  in the class mock this suggestion highlights the fact that the Class officials are solely focused on a handful of Foam boats.

Would those select few Foamie owners then boycott Titles because they think they are being penalised 12.5Kgs??

This class is not a 1 design class when you have a 25kg weight difference between the lightest and heaviest.Split the difference and then at least half of all Maris would be competitive.

NO I am not suggesting finding the heaviest boat merely the AVERAGE weight..Some would need to carry lead(foamies) and others would be over weight..BUT even the heaviest Mari would only be 12.5Kgs over and NOT the 25Kgs as we have currently.

 

Sounds like those at the Titles like the way thing are and dont want PARITY in the Class.

[darcy1945]

125kg would probably be closer to the average for GRP boats, I have owned both, and the performance difference is noticeable on all points of sail, the greatest noticeable difference, is when loading the boats at the end of the day, a real struggle for GRP, piece of cake for foam. 

[darcy1945]

I believe the boats are so different, that a separate championship should be run for classics. 

[Aqua Rodent]

Wow - talk about running off with the fairies!  Put it in perspective guys.

 

I own a 1986 model laser.  It has zero resale.  It is old, soft, faded, and could never conceivably compete with a new Laser.  Wouldn't even be on the lead lap against any decent sailor.  It can never be restored or fixed to become competitive, and its next home is the tip.  Poor investment.

 

I own a 1980 (or even older!) model Mk1 Maricat.  Paid a case of beer.  It was old, faded, overweight, had crap sails, badly tuned rudders, leaked like a sieve and couldn't be on the lead lap against any decent sailor.

The bottom is now polished to an inch of its life, tuned up in every area, is watertight, 102kg fully rigged, new sails and all new fitout.  I've probably spent 50-60hrs of labour in bringing it back to life.  A bit of hard work, and it placed 2nd in the States against a better sailed $10K foamie and the boat has a decent resale value.  My kids love it, and I'm happy with that investment.

 

Now convince me why I should expect to be able to beat a newer boat with one built by far inferior methods and materials 30+ years ago?!!

 

I also sail in quite a few other classes, and am under no expectation that a $2000 MG can be even remotely close to the $10K+ ones at the front of the fleet.  My foiling moth, while a barrel load of fun and competitive in my little world, will never win a Worlds, but then I also didn't pay $24K to be state of the art.

 

Compare one-design cats?  Find me a Hobie 16 that is 30yo and can still be at the front.  

 

Given a real world perspective of expectations for old boats, and I can be 100% certain that the fibreglass Maricats will give you better bang-for-buck than any other class.  27 boats for the States is a sign of life that many classes can only dream of.  If one or two leave the class because they can't see the forest for the trees, then so be it - if they were looking at other classes then they were likely to leave anyway.  How many other cat classes are still able to attract those numbers in Australia?

 

Maricat owners and potential owners need to keep a real life view of what they expect.  Spend little, prepare little - you won't be at the front.  Prepare lots, practice lots - you will be at the front of COMPARABLE boats.  Every equipment based sport in the world is the same.  Why else would we have $5K Optimists, $10K carbon pushbikes, $500 putters...

 

Yardstick racing is a crapshoot at best and meant as an equaliser between classes - handicap racing is the only fair way within a class.  (You can guarantee someone else could borrow Mick's foamie and not win.)  A strong class association which has a strong committee at its centre is the best way to achieve accurate and representative handicaps.  Put your hand up and volunteer if you feel so strongly about it.

 

Darcy - I officially nominate you for Secretary.  

You have the skills, experience and know-how to be an asset to the Association and provide direction and organisation skills to help the class become what it deserves.  I'm sure there will be more than one person who will be a seconder.

[interested]

Ahh yes Rohan but with the intro of a fairer (average) minimum weight then the whole idea of 2 seperate Yardsticks is not needed.

PARITY is what the class "says" it wants and yet this intro of a raised min weight is dismissed so quickly.

 

Yep you also right about the MG class Rohan BUT at least if my old Aero 4 MG  is minimum weight I can compete with new boats at same weight 67kgs and dont forget the MG is a Developmental Class boat not a 1 design class.Different hull shapes in MG but same minimum weights..That is not happening in Maricats.

Was interesting reading the State Title  Maricat report that stated hundreds of Maricats are in peoples yard and not being used.Is the class trying to attract new foamies or are you lot really interested in getting the current fleet back racing??

Taking a step back and raising the min weight will actually solve the 2 Yardstick issues as well as making the obsolete heavier Cats competitive again..1 step back for 2 steps forwards.Isnt this what the current committee is trying to achieve or is that just PR spin?

 

Please tell us how raising min weight from 95 to 107kgs would damage the class??It wouldnt, it would allow people with older Maris to compete on a even weight..Of course the new sails and better sailors will always win but blokes are not interested in State Titles if they know their Mari has 25kgs of extra weight..

Stuff the 2 Yardsticks as this only divides the class..Just add weight to the light hulls and even it out for all.

 

Oh yeah dont forget I OWN A FOAMIE so I am not talking out my arse..I would gladly add 12.5 Kgs of lead if it means PARITY in the class..For the good of all.

[Aqua Rodent]

Parity...?

So me sailing at 80kg on a 102kg boat, against Phil at 90kg on a 95kg boat means he should have beat me then? Should someone who weighs 60kg have to ballast up to match the guy sailing at 100kg?

There is a target sailing weight for every class. The Maricat is quite broad at around 175-195kg all up. I need to lose 7kg to match Mick for platform weight, and a few more to match body weight.

The published Maricat Class min weight is, has always been, 95kg. No ifs, buts or otherwise.

If an old boat is heavy, then it is heavy. The construction method of a choppy gun isn't the most scientific, and the building sins are from many moons ago. Don't penalise boats that are on class min weight.

You have absolutely no hope in hell of me adding any sort of lead or corrector to my 30 year old boat. If yours is heavy, work on reducing as much weight as possible out of rigging, ropes, blocks, tramp, sail weight, battens, trap system - it all adds up. Then, go on a diet and lose 10kg and you have made up the difference.

[humungus2]

Fair dinkam, I was sailing faster than ever at the states against the top sailors anywhere. I was amazed as to the speed of a MK1 & a MK2 as opposed to my foamy. I know there is a difference between a neglected old boat and a new boat because I sailed one on the weekend. I know if one person in particular whom has changed classes because he believed he had no chance of winning at the states or nats. A very sad loss for the class. The maricat min boat weight has form day one been 95kg. The manufactures are building the boats to the min weight but it's not just the weight. I have my boat rigged so that everything is free, easy and quick to use. All the other boats tack at half the pace I do and get crap starts. Clean up your boats, shed some KGs in the skipper and boat. Do the basics in tuning like tighten your tramp and stiffen the boat in general. If you practice and know how to sail you will be at the front of the pack. This has been proven over and over in many regattas.

[Mako]

I agree with Rohan, There are not many classes that you can be competitive with a 30 year old boat at a state level. Having raced Hobie 16s at state & national level in the 90's If your boat was more than a couple of seasons old you will not be at the front of the fleet no matter how good you are a sailor, sure you might do well in 1 race but in a series you just wont be up there. I think the maricat states was a brilliant showing of a class that is getting stronger and it may have been good that some of the people on here could have come and enjoyed a brilliant racing venue and a fleet of Maricats the size we have not seen for years and even made it a bigger event. I think its a testament to the design of the maricat that old mark 1's and 2's can be still very competitive and with a bit of hard work and small a $ investment you can be at the front of a state fleet. My boat cost me $600 and it, like Rohan's has had some money and time spent on it but it is now a competitive boat against a number of newer boats and I am sailing it with my son in sloop and he is loving that we got 2nd at the states, and in the end that's what its about for me. Anyway enough for now. I am now going sailing in a short ocean race in a 30 foot all carbon fibre racing cat for the Lock Crowther memorial Regatta starting today. I just believe that the Maricat is a brilliant class to get started in Multihulls in and it doesn,t have to cost you a fortune. Just get out there and enjoy the boat and class for what they are.

[Pointed Reply]

Now we all need to remember that we are (mostly) middle aged blokes just sailing around in $1000 boats........it's not the America's Cup.

[Pointed Reply]

This weekend for something different, I might sail the club Paper Tiger at Lake Albert in Wagga. The boat is old and probably 10kg over weight. It has an older style panel cut sail and timber foils. Among the other PTs will be Gary Williams, who has won about 25 State and National Titles. He has a brand new minimum weight boat with the latest radial cut sail and high tech foils. Gary will almost certainly come first and me last, and probably get lapped.

 

And guess what.......the VYC Yardstick will be 92 for both boats.

 

I'm sure the club will give me a generous club handicap for the day.

 

If I like the PT I could then go out and spend lots of money or time buying or building a modern, high spec PT..........sail it for 20 years and still maybe come last to Gary.

 

But I'm sure it will be lots of fun, trying not to come last and working out the wind shifts and drifter conditions on the lake........

 

************

 

But then again I might sail the Dophin........