Rohans Kite

[interested]

Could I please ask Rohan to put up a few more(heaps) pics of the kite and rigging used at recent regatta.

 

Also if I could suggest a method for determining  MAX kite size for the Mari..."the old MG rule did not use sq Mtrs,,the old MG rule was a lineal 14m maximum..You didnt need any mathematic equation to work out kite size.you just measured the 3 sides together and they had to be under 14 lineal Mtrs...(Can you measure that Yellow kite and give a lineal measurement not sq/m)

By having a MAX of 14 lineal it would allow Kites to be measured quickly and also allow crews to purchase kites easily from other classes.ie:MG,Cherub etc..just run a tape over it and if it adds up under 14lm then its allowed..

 

The addition of colourful kites to the class will only make the fleet more attractive and help keep crews busy.

 

I want to run a kite and keep my crew interested..I only hope the Assoc can see the kite as a added benefit and the committee votes to allow a small spinnaker to class..

Please post pics Rohan,the more pics the better.

[darcy1945]

If you run it, we would all be interested, you would be classed as F14( which is currently hard done by on Koonawarra Y/S) but KCCs Y/S (Much more favourable to F14) will probably be used in future.

[interested]

Darcy I Have 2 teen Daughters who sail other class  Monos,both do not like the "plain look" of the Maricats and 1 daughter refuses to crew any longer as she found crewing too boring.The only way she will race on Maricats  again is if she is Skipper.

Adding a colorful  kite will increase the crew participation level when racing plus assist the Maricat Sloop sailing 2 up when winds drop.

Just a small kite Darcy and Rohan looks like he has worked out a set-up for it.Would be happy to follow his rig.

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Just commission Rohan to make you one like his.  Set the standard!

[darcy1945]

John Merle,( Maricai Nat Champ, some years back), set up his Mari S/S with spin and square top some years back, with startling results, never used it in club racing, (he could beat the S/Sloops when cat rigged)

[Scuttlebutt]

It is not the committee that votes on these decisions it is the members.

[interested]

Yes and any  changes introduced  will depend on what attitudes the members take. 

 

I would like to think that all members adopt the positive  attitude that if it does not effect them directly  then why vote against a motion.Some members will always sail Cat rigged and are not interested in a Kite or a jib but that should be no reason to vote against it.

In all reality we MAY get 4 Kites at a Title to constitute a Class..We may NOT..But at least let the option be available for those Sloop crews who are interested in the idea.

Hopefully the kite gets passed by members and we can run one in Club races by the end of this season.

[darcy1945]

You can run a kite in club events now, as an F14. The sooner good sailors start using the F14 class in regattas, the sooner we get a realistic Yardstick for them. 

[Aqua Rodent]

I'll post some more pics when I get 5min to take some.

Kite is my standard MG one I used in the Nationals last season. It is 13.980m in perimeter. MG kites still have to be 14m max. No mid girth restrictions, but physics dictates it pretty well.

A Cherub kite is 15.4m perimeter (from memory), with a mid girth restriction as well.

While the system and kite works well and is a barrel of fun, I'm not sure I would actually want to see any more 'official' divisions in the Maricat fleet than we already have. On the weekend gone, I would have much preferred to have had 15 Super Sloops all matching up, than half cats, half SS. Yes different skills, yes something for everyone, but surely there are enough choices out there as there is, and if you want to race like-for-like, then the way to do it is in the same class configuration. We even had a 2up cat rigged on the weekend! (Btw- well done to Rory for braving the 4 races like a champion!)

If everyone works on building the Maricat fleet to 100 boats attendance at events, then we can start looking at splitting up divisions to best cater for potential audiences. At the moment, it feels more like tiny pockets of individuals pulling in 10 different directions, than a class united by a fantastic boat with amazing racing.

[interested]

I will only race Sloop with crew, not 1 up Super Sloop Rohan.So it is crews like ours that are currently not interested in attending SS only Maricat Titles.By introducing a kite it may increase attendance at titles among the Sloop Crews.

If the Maris can already race with Kites Darcy and are currently  Hcapped same as the  F14 the obvious thing would be to use similar kites as F14 if we are to be Hcapped the same..

I see the F14s state a MAX 13.93 sqM Kite which are on par with Rohans MG kite.

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Some idle observations:

1. bring a kite, I don't think anyone particularly worries about whether or not you do.  There'll never be a "kite kit" from the manufacturer because that's likely to be too exy (because it'll probably have to include a new mast too).

2. there'll never be 100 boat fleets in Mari's - I'd doubt if there ever were and if they did it'd be back in the 70's, the heyday of all small boat sailing.  Even the high attendance events, like the Moths, A Class etc never have a big audience, sailing is a participation sport, the only time there's been a big audience is the recent America's Cup and we don't have the hundreds of millions that backed that up.

3. the idea that the current setup of a 'standard' Mari is strong enough to hold jib and kite ignores the breakages that have occurred over the years.  I've only seen it once, when Jason converted Sweet Sixteen to super sloop - ripped the deck from the hull.  Rohan, those pics that Dave has posted show a significant bend in your mast so I would presume that you were sailing your standard mast and sails on Micks boat and it's only a matter of time (big wave, nosedive etc) before that'll fold.  A bend the other way like the DN ice racers would probably be better but not achievable with the hounds settings.  Once your mast breaks what then, a move to carbon?

 

Great that there's lots of discussion and it'll blow over leaving the same strength that the class currently has.  As has been said, there's room for everything, carbon mast? - F14, kite - F14, high top main - F14 and so it goes on.  Standard setup (sails that measure, boat that measures etc) go into the normal pot as usual.

 

For Class events then you can have scratch and class based handicap.  Depending on the conditions I'd say the kite based foam supersloop will win the scratch (heavy air conditions might favour non kite boats since the kite boats are more likely to suffer breakages) and the cbh based results will be based on the usual Koonawarra type handicaps.  

[Aqua Rodent]

OldJimbo.

2 - I'm a bit more optimistic than that.  I race every Easter in 70 boat fleets in the NS14's, and thats in a 2 hander that is highly technical, costs $16K new, and need to be taken care of.  The Maricat is basic, cheap, strong, has a huge availability of boats, and can be sailed 1, 2, or even 3 up with kids if you want.  A bit more work from all involved in the Maricat class, at club and association level, and 100 boats is not out of the question.

3. I simply don't get the paranoia over masts in the Maricats.  They are the most over-engineered section you could ever choose for a 14ft boat.  I am purposely running the light cat-rigged version for the bend characteristics, and have never looked up and seen anything of concern.  My 2 masts are the originals off Mk1s.  Not too many classes would have 30 year old masts still at the front of the fleet!

I will bet that the ones you have seen bend/broken are due to maintenance issues, or having that ridiculous swept back mainsheet setup that seems to be so popular.  

 

Not sure which photo you are referring to of my mast bend?  Linky?

[knobblyoldjimbo]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153356092275634&set=a.10153356090100634.1073741826.749970633&type=3&theater

 

and I think the swept back mainsheet is to keep the mast rotated, Mick uses it so it must be fast.

 

ah, begin yer pardon, that's your sail, not you.  Still a bendy mast but!

[korwich]

Jimbo I reckon that is probably Scotty and I reckon that his mast is derotated.  I could be wrong.

 

Phil

 

Just went back and checked again def Scotty, Rohan doesn't have the yellow panel at the bottom of his sail.  And pretty sure that is derotating although maybe not fully, when you look at the photo zoomed in, the "caution electricity sticker" is pointing straight at the camera, and Scot has his rotation stops ground out so the mast should be further round than that, (normally so that the track is facing the stay)

[Aqua Rodent]

That's definitely Scott, not me.

I didn't have my mast de-rotate once in the whole weekend - actually haven't had it happen even once since I have worked out how to sail these things! (As a reference, I weighed 80kg exactly in shorts on the weekend)

It usually happens as a result of the draft shifting back in the sail, back winding the main, and the battens beginning to pull backwards on the mast. Generous amounts of Cunningham and pulling out the foot when conditions get to that should sort it. This will also twist and blade the power off from the top of the sail, and in conjunction with the mainsheet being upright and pulling down, rather than forcing the mast forward, will mean you are left with a bit of power in the bottom of the sail and it will hold the rotation nicely.

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Given that Scotty's mast will be the ribbed version I think he'd be happy that it was, I'm sure a bendy cat rigged mast might have done more than just bend!

 

Your comments on cunningham are interesting.  One thing I learned, finally and just before I sold up and moved up here was that the rule that I've heard Mick state - ie "Don't touch the downhaul" was quite true.  Offwind I wouldn't have thought downhaul was any issue at all since the leech didn't need to be 'let off' - upwind, yes of course it lets the upper leech off but (as I've learned) why do it, it impacts pointing significantly and makes you slower.  Importantly it also prevents the mast from tacking properly - an goodly handful of downhaul prebends the mast and thus causes it to not want to rotate over.  The last sail I had was a Marko radial and I guess the design made the draft stay where it was meant to stay.  I found that practicing what Frank Bethwaite in his last book talked about which was in a gust to pull the main on harder (bend the mast, flatten the sail) and point up slightly to take advantage of the new apparent wind (which goes forward a couple of degrees in a gust) was very effective.

 

Rohan, do you have the standard (read old) hounds fitting?  Maybe that's one of the issues, the 'new' ones seem to be bigger (allowing for the trap fittings I guess) which may mean the forestay is generating more leverage to prevent the proper rotation.  I know I've had the problem, for me it was i) the use of a kicker (I still like the concept, on boat 1 it seemed quicker off the wind) and ii) the use of downhaul preventing the mast rotating in a tack (resulting in my nifty automatic downhaul - which I stopped using!).

[Aqua Rodent]

Clearly a couple of 'misinterpretations' going on with rig controls and interactions here!

 

I'm not going to go on a full 'my theory of rig control' in this forum, but needless to say, you need to look up and see what happens when you pull strings.  I would be happy to give anyone a run thru on 'my opinion' at the next Maricat event if anyone is interested.  (And, as they say 'opinions are like A$$h0les - everybody has one!')  Be great to hear from a few others on their experiences, as it will build on the pool of knowledge and let the thinkers and doers go and find out what works best for them.

 

A couple of extra points:

* Franks books, while great thought provokers, aren't strong on un-vanged, free-rotating catamaran rigs.

* We are using dacron sails, which by any measure are inferior in stretch and bias to film based cloths on the boats that Frank based his research.

* Radial cut is used to provide better load paths through the dacron, and result in less of the 'off-axis' stretch and a more stable shape.

* Twist in the head has next to nothing to do with pointing.  The mid-lower leech control is critical - hence my comments on raked mainsheet over-bending the lower mast and causing the bottom half of the leech to open prematurely. (note in photo below, 5009 bottom batten)

* ALL performance multihulls are utilising higher and higher downhaul tensions to stabilise the draft of the sail, control depth and bend the mast.  Purchases of 16:1 are common now, and combined with sail designs with greater luff curve, allow you to carry a very flat aerofoil upwind, while dumping the cunno downwind allows the mast to straighten and power up considerably.  When used in conjunction with mast rotation, this is an extremely adjustable combination.

* if it is windy enough that you don't need the extra power downwind (as is evident in the photo of Scott), then there is no need to let off the cunno, and you can control the amount of power required through traveller position, mainsheet tension and sail twist.

* Landy has some interesting comments - http://www.landenberger-sailing.com/en/landenberger/tips_tuning/wie_finktioniet_ein_wing_mast.html

* Static rig tension also has an effect on rotation - too high, and the mast will want to self-centre.

 

Hounds fittings - this has a very small part in the rotation.  FYI-I am running the normal Ronstan/Riley large ferruled yoke.  The offset from the mast would be less than 10mm between all brands of fittings.

 

 

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Fair enough on Frank's books but they are all about apparent wind boats which generally the Mari is (apart from cat rigged which become "blow downwind" boats on a run).  

 

Landy says this: "This allows the leech to open. The boat may feel ok but often the leech is to open and you can’t point high enough. " which is the problem I was saying - I used to pull the downhaul on when I got a gust which, because on a Mari the sail doesn't go back after releasing the downhaul you therefore reset the sail for high wind, low point, better to tighten the mainsheet, flatten the sail and point up a little to use the benefits of the gust,

 

Love to have these 'conversations', they are the sort you used to have in the bar after racing (and which of course were subject to the limit of knowledge of the local club racers) but now the audience is far wider.  Have this conversation on Sailing Anarchy and people like Julian Bethwaite sometimes chime in.  They don't beat time on the water though and sadly that's time that I no longer have, I've 'traded' 25 hours per week sitting on the train wishing I was sailing to 0 hours on the train and no job therefore no chance to go sailing (also Lake Tinaroo which is 90mins away is pretty much empty at the moment!).  Who knows maybe I end up with a job, another cat and sailing again.

 

The uncontrolled derotation of Mari masts is common and significant though.  Any guidance to the reasons on this forum are going to be a good thing because it reduces the likelyhood of broken bits and improves our abilities as sailors.

 

Its a bit like tacking a cat rigged Mari, we had a discussion about it at Manno once, we asked Mick and he didn't know how to stop the transom grinding into the water, why? because it doesn't happen on a foamy (and may not happen on your lightened classic Rohan).

 

Also: "FYI-I am running the normal Ronstan/Riley large ferruled yoke. " next time check, those used on the later boats are different so I'd conclude there are two distinct types.