Guest young gun Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 I am a young cat sailor with concerns, it does not matter who I am, it could be any one under 30. I fail to see how F18's are going to solve all Cat Sailing problems.Over the past 20 or so years Cat Sailing has gone from haveing 70 to 80 boats sailing at clubs every weekend to clubs struggleing to have enough boats and people to conduct races on a regular bases. A couple of reasons for this are: * People don't sail on a regular bases any more and don't won't to put in the effort to help run the clubs week in weekout. I think we are all guilty of this at one time or another. *Second reason is there are not many younger people moveing into Cat Sailing. You go to any Cat Sailing regatta in Australia and I can assure you most people there will be older than 30.Wich brings me to the third and most important reason. * This is "COST". People can not justify spending the intial out lay to buy a new boat and then maintain it.What'a new F18 worth 20000 to 25000 on a trailer.Here lays the problem,you will find it hard to find a young person who has this sort of money. Thus no new blood coming into Cat Sailing. If you go to any mono sailing club on a weekend,you will find there will be 3or4 times more lasers,sabots,420,470 etc.sailing than the more expensive 49ers,18&12 skiffs etc.Why "COST" !!! So finally I think the F18's looks great , would be heaps of fun to race and sail.But as a younger Cat Sailor (24) I can not justify spending that sort of money on a boat.So I fail to see how you are going to solve any problems by introducing the F18. I can only see it causeing more problems and don't believe you will atract new young people to F18 Cat Sailing (or even old ones). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 Dear Young Gun, I'm sure your concerns are shared by many of us. No one has the magic answer. F18 has never claimed to be the total solution, but we have succeeded in regenerating interest in a lot of people and we will slow the flow of people retiring from catsailing. We have also managed to attract some new blood. Young Blood? Well firstly, second hand Tigers are already available for very reasonable prices. Secondly, all the high performance boats are expensive. Thats a fact. There are plenty of cheaper options if you have a limited budget. You can race a $4000.00 Hobie 16 if price is your impediment. I don't believe that money is the problem today. I think it is the issue of lack of committment and shortage of attitude that is locking out the youngsters and its a shift to family value that is keeping the oldies at home. As a retailer in the sailing industry, I can tell you that recreational sailing is booming. Racing as we have it is only appealing to the diehards. Just my assesment of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Holden Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 Problem with sailing is: It takes one day out of the weekend - Most of us now work 6 days a week - only leaving Sunday to do Family/chores around house. Kids these days seem to be more interested in playstation than a day sailing Money - it is getting to expensive for the average family to buy a boat and be competitive.A $4K Hobie 16 will not get you winning many races. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berthos Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 This trend towards 7 day a week opening for businesses is really crap for society generally as is having to work 6 days a week. On the one day that's left you are often so shagged that all you want to do is to sit at home. I've been in this position myself but am fortunate enough that I own my business and have made the decision to only work 5 days. It costs me a lot of money but at least now I have the energy to do something on my days off. Two days off is really necessary if you wish to recover from a week of hard work. We as a society need to rebel, not worship the dollar so much and value our spare time more. Boycott Saturday and Sunday trading and free the workers to enjoy a day's sailing or whatever. Mind you by doing this we won't be able to afford to buy new high performance catamarans. As for playstations!! Bin the @#$%ers. No wonder Australia has the most overweight population in the world. Get the kids off their bums and out of the house. Isn't it amazing how many simulators are out there. Even sailing sims!!! Bugger me, simulators are getting so realistic we won't need lives any more. Don't give the kids racing car simulators. Give them the materials to build a go-kart and make them push it up the hill and ride it down. Great fun, exercise, and a valuable learning experience. The real world is the best simulation there is. The graphics are brilliant, you get feel around, smell around, the sound is real surround sound!! Sorry, got a bit carried away there. Rob. [This message has been edited by berthos (edited 09 October 2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest young gun Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 Mal Where would I find a list of second hand tigers for sale? Question: Why are they selling there tigers? Are they getting out of the class or are they updating their boats to new ones.If so wouldn't that sort of blow the theroy that you don't need a new boat to win.(I guess as a dealer that wouldn't be a bad thing). Hence we are back where we started with most clases,that you need a new boat to win.It would be interesting to know how old the boats were in the top 10 or 20 at the worlds. My guess is that they are probally not more than 2 years old. I agree with Andrew I don't think I would win to many races on a H16 for $4000,or even be competive againts newer H16. Sure I love to race and it is fun,but I do like to be competative and win a race every now and then! Mike Selwyn (no boat at the moment looking at options) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 This topic is very much at the tip of anyones tongue who has anything to do with sailing. Firstly i agree with Mal that rec. sailing is booming. Secondly cost: yes it is no hidden secret that to be competitive you need a fairly new stiff boat. But what is stopping all the guys on older boats getting out there and racing each other? (i know the Nacras give a trophy at Nats for best placed boat over ten yrs old) I do feel here in OZ we are very competitive sailors (which is why there isn't to many wives sailing) but this also explains why we spend the money on newer boats. My feeling is we need to spend a lot more time helping the new guys and keeping them interested. I also agree with Rob, i am only just past my teens and i do have a playstation, but i have used it less than a dozen times in three years as it gets in the way of my sailing. There is nothing like the real thing!! Young gun: I am a similar age to yourself and yes a 20k boat would be to much for me, but there are other classes out there where new boats are still fairly reasonable. And for that matter there are plenty of 2nd hand boats out there which are still competitive.(N16sq, N14sq, H16 etc) I know from personal experience, sailing a 16sq at the QLD states against 25 others was fantastic, and it was great business wise for us with ten new boats in the fleet, but is still placed 2nd on a 6yr old boat. It is not always the boat! My two cents worth (maybe a dollar) Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 Young Gun, I have a couple of used Tigers. They were owned by people who have moved fwds or backwards, depending on your perspective. There is nothing wrong with the boats.At the last Tiger worlds, a 4 or 5 yr old Euro boat was first. Even some with pin head sails were in the first ten! I have won races on a $4000.00 Hobie 16, so it can be done. Pick a class and buy the best boat you can afford. Get out there and go sailing. Upgrade as you can afford it. By the time you can afford an F18, you'll be experienced enough to handle one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundy Posted October 23, 2002 Report Share Posted October 23, 2002 Hi Young Gun (Mike), I defiantly dont believe you need a new boat to win. I won a Hobie 16 nationals on a 8 year old boat with original sails. I dont remember what year but they were in Perth. The Tornado I won the nationals with this year is a 92 model. Also, please remember that F18 is a formula and it does not have to be a Tiger or a Nacra F18 it can be any boat that you can make fit into the rule. There are a lot of cheap old boats out there that could be revamped to fit the F18 rules. Use your imagination. I believe the oldest F18 in Australia is still potentially the fastest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest young gun Posted October 24, 2002 Report Share Posted October 24, 2002 Bundy You are a unreal sailor and have won so many titles.I think you would win sailing a 50 year old boat with no sails at all.But Perth being Perth you probally had 20kn everyday (Fremantle Doctor)so it wouldn't matter how old your boat was.There is nothing like 20kn to even things out. As for the Tornado Nat's,I don't believe the Aussie Tornado's are at the same level as overseas Tornado's.(no offence intended).How old was your was your boat at the worlds,I bet it wasn't a 92 model with orignal sails! What boats could you revamp to fit the f18 rules? Would there design handle the stress of a kite and the extra weight needed to fit the formula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Skewes Posted October 28, 2002 Report Share Posted October 28, 2002 Young Gun, in your reply to Darren you have reinforced his point. That point is that if you are a good sailor you can do well in an older boat. If you are not a good sailor, a new boat won't make you win races. You raised a valid pont when you said that Darren would not have used an old boat in the T worlds. Of course he didn't! When competing at that level you must have the good gear, but the issue that you raised in your first post was not about olympic sailing, it was about club sailing. At a club level a 10 year old boat will beat a much newer boat if it is sailed better - this happens at my local club. While I agree that it is hard for younger people to afford a Formula 18, they are pretty cheap if you are the crew. Most F18 owners would love to have a "young gun" show up and crew on their Tiger/nacra every weekend. And before you say "yeah, but I really prefer to skipper" just try crewing on a F18 for a weekend regatta and see if you are hooked. Lets keep chewing this topic over, as we all want the same thing - more people sailing cats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Skewes Posted October 28, 2002 Report Share Posted October 28, 2002 Young Gun, in your reply to Darren you have reinforced his point. That point is that if you are a good sailor you can do well in an older boat. If you are not a good sailor, a new boat won't make you win races. You raised a valid pont when you said that Darren would not have used an old boat in the T worlds. Of course he didn't! When competing at that level you must have the good gear, but the issue that you raised in your first post was not about olympic sailing, it was about club sailing. At a club level a 10 year old boat will beat a much newer boat if it is sailed better - this happens at my local club. While I agree that it is hard for younger people to afford a Formula 18, they are pretty cheap if you are the crew. Most F18 owners would love to have a "young gun" show up and crew on their Tiger/nacra every weekend. And before you say "yeah, but I really prefer to skipper" just try crewing on a F18 for a weekend regatta and see if you are hooked. Lets keep chewing this topic over, as we all want the same thing - more people sailing cats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundy Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 Hi Young Gun, Thanks for the Ego boost but that was not my point. My 16 example was back in the days I had not really won anything. I was just a "Young gun". My point is don’t let money stop you. I bought that boat for $1600 it was in some guys backyard and had turned green from mold. After I won that nationals I probably bought the cheapest new 16 in history as the factory was not to keen for a old boat to be winning. Truth is I did not go any better on the new boat than I did on the old clunker. You are right my worlds boat was not the ’92 it was the same boat I used at the Games 2 years ago. But then again the level you are going to sail at in Australia you probably don’t need the best boat. As to which boat I would revamp? I kinda regret saying that after I have thought about it for a while. Im not sure it would be to good for the new F18 market. Maybe they would not work anyway but it would be fun trying. Peter’s comments about crewing is worth considering. In boats like these the crews role is ever increasing and the crew is the most under rated part of the boat. Good crews make average skippers look pretty good. Plus there is always something to learn from sailing with new people. Stay motivated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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