Jib Luff Downhaul Systems on a 5.8.

[GRACELAND1216]

I'm thinking about changing my jib's downhaul system.It currently runs the jib halyard down the front of the mast.I want to change it so the halyard runs thru the zippered luff of the jib to the foil.I would like to know how to set up a decent downhaul system on the foil which works reasonably well whether it is fixed or adjustable while sailing.Anyone who has done this please let me know the pros and cons.thanks in advance,GRACELAND1216.

[This message has been edited by GRACELAND1216 (edited 25 September 2005).]

[Guest someone]

you must be sillier than you look

[Darryl J Barrett]

When set up properly the system that you refer to works "to perfection"

The jib halyard has to have a "joining point" at the point where the halyard comes back down the jib luff (inside the zip pocket) so that it finishes just below the bottom of the zip pocket, (this part of the halyard that stays attached to the sail and runs back down to the jib tack is usually made from light "multi flex" SS wire with a thimble and swage end). For running up and dropping the jib attach a light weight sheet line (4mm?) to that end of the SS halyard. When the jib is up remove the rope line and attach the swaged end of the SS wire by shackle to a pulley wheel that has another SS wire running through it across the boat from two other pulleys which it runs through, attached one each side of the boat at the bridle points. The wire is then turned back towards the tramp/front beam and is finished with a pulley at each end, one on each side of the inside of each hull. A 4mm or 5mm line that is attached to the front beam in line with the inside of each hull is fed through this pulley and back to a cleat on the top of the front beam. This gives full control of the jib luff tension from either side of the boat and it gives plenty of "purchase" to "control" the luff tension and as well with this system, when the luff tension is pulled down, the halyard is in turn pulling the luff of the jib itself upwards, which means that the tack point of the jib always stays at the same height relative to the bridle etc.

[HooD]

Sorry Graceland I have been meaning to reply but seem to get interupted everytime I start.

That system works fine on a bridal wired boat Darryl, but alas is not suitable for a nacra 5.8 with a bridal foil.

The old system that you have (running up the front of the mast) is a pain because mast bend changes the tension, just when you want the luff on harder the mast bends and slackens the tension.

On jack ours is adjustable on the water, but it really isnt all that necesary to do so. We run a fairly loose sort of rig and set the jib to be very tight under full mainsheet preasure, as the breeze drops we just ease the mainsheet and the jub luff is eased. same principal applies downwind.

our setup for the downhaul is a stainless steel wire inside the jib luff, ending about 300mm before the bottom of the luff pocket. a pair of pullies attached to the bridal foil directly below, and a cam cleat mounted on a piece of aluminium plate that is mounted on the extreme rear of the bridal foil. (the flat section at the rear)

there is a 3mm rope that is the full length halyard that is fed down through one pulley back up through the thimble of the halyard then down through a guide pulley on the foil, through the cam cleat then back to the tramp. the excess halyard goes into the tramp bag.

not a bad system, seems to work ok.

can provide some pictures if you desire?

[REV YUKKA II]

hi steve

don't know who "someone" is but we will asume they are a fool until proven other wise. we use the bridal foil system on yukka II and on the mast on redback. the only advatage that i see in the bridal foil method is if you want to run a looser rig and therefor use your hayard as the front stay when you crank it on. i run a tight rig on the both of them so i don't realy notice any difference. so i am sure that my comments will help you heaps REV

[Village Idiot]

yes it can be done ,on my old 5.8 I made up a system using ronstan micro blocks a tiny ss hook ,to attach to the jib luff in the zipper luff .then led out to another block shackled to the bridle foil chain plate,then run back to a cleat next to where the jib barber haulers sheet on the front beam,this system was double sided so you could adjust it from either side of the boat.. this system worked a treat ,but when talking to some top 5.8 sailors at the time ,they said it was a set and forget adjustment you make on the beach ....when you think about it it's just more to do when you rig,extra weight ,extra cleats on your beams (holes in the beam) more ropes on the tramp to get tangled in ,not really a necessary control most of the time.

so on the new boat I've got, I've kept it very minimal,no adjustible jib D/H and very clean and uncluttered on the tramp.

I would definatley run the jib halyard down the jib luff though ,get it off the mast..

[GRACELAND1216]

Thanks Darryl,Hood,Rev Yukka and Village Idiot for your replies.Who ever someone is can get f**ked.To Village Idiot,what purchase are you getting with the micro blocks 2:1 or 3:1?do you have a cleat attached to the chain plate or the foil or do you just tie it off at the foil?What sort of cleat do you use?I agree with you about having it adjustable while sailing,the extra weight,ropes,hassles and tangles.if you have any photos of this setup could you please send them to me at gothic69@bigpond.com att.steve.thanks.GRACELAND1216

[Village Idiot]

Originally posted by GRACELAND1216:

Thanks Darryl,Hood,Rev Yukka and Village Idiot for your replies.Who ever someone is can get f**ked.To Village Idiot,what purchase are you getting with the micro blocks 2:1 or 3:1?do you have a cleat attached to the chain plate or the foil or do you just tie it off at the foil?What sort of cleat do you use?I agree with you about having it adjustable while sailing,the extra weight,ropes,hassles and tangles.if you have any photos of this setup could you please send them to me at gothic69@bigpond.com att.steve.thanks.GRACELAND1216

It was about 7 years ago I did it but this is it from memory I could Email you a rough sketch of it though.

It was 4 :1 purchase and I used really thin rope probley about 3mm spectra so it would glide through the mirco blocks and not streach .

1/ on the bottom of the foil where the jib attaches to the foil you need a double micro block running across the foil ( pointing to either side of the boat)

2/ then you have a single micro block with a tiny little stainless hook on it ,this goes up inside the jib luff zipper and hooks on the thimble that your jib rope hallard is tied to when you raise/lower your headsail ,

3/then on your jib foil on the chain plates which attach your foil to the hulls have a 5 cm or so (cant remember the exact lenght ) strop tied to the second bottom hole of the chain plate with a single micro block tied to the end of it.the reason for this is when the rope changes direction 90 degrees to come from the double block and then direct it to the outer side of the front beam ,you don't want the rope chafing or draging across the back edge of the foil cause by memory the chain plate on the foil is on the leading edge and with out the little strop your causing extra friction by pulling over the trailing edge of the foil.

4/ when the rope turns the corner you want another single micro block (this is where you double your purchase)this one is tied to the rope which is continuous to the same position on the other side of the boat ,so the rope goes from one side of the foil ,attached to the becket of the first single micro block, through the turning which is the one with the small rope strop on it attached to the bridle chain plate ,through the double block on the top of the foil , up through the single with the hook on it back down through the double on the top of the foil out to the other turning block and tied to the becket of the other micro block opposite to where you started .

5/ you need a small cam cleat with a fairlead mounted on top of the front beam ( or where ever else you want it )I mounted it in line with the inside of the hull .

now you need a rope tied to the righting line saddle under the front beam take it forward through the purchase block (the one you have the other rope tied to the becket of) then back through the cleat on the front beam..

if you want you can have this rope continuous as well

beware when getting the lenght of the rope at the front you must set the boat up and it's a little trial and error at first ,you have to make sure you have enough adjustment you don't want the extra purchase blocks the ones tied to the front rope to come back and hit the front beam when tensioning the thing

the good thing is when its set up right it all stays attached to the foil you just undo the cleat end when your unrigging,when rigging you just pull your headsail up till you get to the thimble on the halyard and hook it up with the little ss hook the untie your rope halyard..

good luck let us know how it goes!!

Jay N5.8 1606 Polaris......

[Village Idiot]

so how'ed it go???????????

[GRACELAND1216]

Thanks to HooD and Village Idiot who sent me some photos.I should be able to set up a decent jib luff downhaul system with some of theses ideas and get rid of the jib halyard off the front of the mast.I'm thinking of a non adjustable while sailing to keep weight down and less tangles,just set and forget.Graceland 1216.

[GRACELAND1216]

I'm posting some photos that HooD and Village Idiot sent me so others following this thread can see what we are talking about.Thank you guys for the photos.Anyone else with a better system please add your comments or send me an email.Regards GRACELAND1216.

[This message has been edited by GRACELAND1216 (edited 19 June 2005).]

[Village Idiot]

the second photo is the set up I have on my current 5.8 ,not easily adjustible whilst on the water ,but an effective simple system.

BTW how'ed you post the photos did you attach them or link to a host???

also that bridle wire doesn't look real flash!!!

[This message has been edited by Village Idiot (edited 17 June 2005).]

[HooD]

Thats my bridal foil wire, and its not rust, its gravel from a near by carpark. stupid wacka's keep doing wheel spins and throwing gravel dust in the air that lands on the boat.

I just wish the council would seal the carpark.

[GRACELAND1216]

To Village Idiot,To post photos on catsailor.net I emailed the photos that you and HooD sent me to the webmaster of Port Hunter skiff club website.He downloaded the photos to the website into a folder and I went there latter ,clicked on the thumb nail to bring up a larger image than right clicked on the photo to find the properties.Copy and paste the photo's properties and add at the end when you want to post a photo on this forum.

I want to start a thread of interesting Nacra photos so if you want to post a picture of your boat email me the photo and the Port Hunter Skiff Club website will host the photos for free.It's just a matter of going to the Port Hunter website to find your photo to get the properties to link the image.Thanks to HooD for teaching me how to do this.I hope to see some interesting pictures posted soon.I'll start the thread today with some Nacra photos taken this year at our club.Regards GRACELAND.

[This message has been edited by GRACELAND1216 (edited 19 September 2005).]

[GRACELAND1216]

Hi all, This is the system I have decided to go with. Using a Ronstan RF 444 chainplate, drill out the 3/16" rivet at the base. Get a CL 241 alloy cleat and drill out the top hole to 1/4" to accommodate the cleavis pin. Grab a 3/16" x 3/4" CSK metal thread and put thru the bottom hole in the cleat and use a 3/16" nut underneath and tighten. This will make the cleat parallel to the chainplate. Get a small flared top saddle and bend the bottom to suit the bottom of the chainplate. Put the bolt on the cleat thru the 3/16" hole in the chainplate followed by the saddle and a 3/16" nyloc nut. Use a 3/16" monel rivet and a 3/16" small flat washer behind the chainplate to fit the top of the saddle.

To finish the job you need a 1/4" cleavis pin,1/4" flat washer and a nylon sheave with a 1/4" centre.

See photos below.

[catadinghy]

Looks like a great system, and the answer to a problem I am having with using a roller furler. Have you used this application the furler?

[GRACELAND1216]

Hi Catadinghy, I notice you are from the U.S.A. Down Under we use a bridal foil and there isn't room for a furler and it's not class legal here as well. The system above would work on a furler with the furler underneath and chainplate downhaul system on top and it's similar to the system on a Hobie 18. Have a good at the first photo in this post and it shows you the bridal foil close up and the photo below with the jib attatched. I don't know what jib set ups you use in the States but it would work well on the old bridle wire system.

A photo of the bridal wire headsail

[This message has been edited by GRACELAND1216 (edited 21 September 2005).]

[catadinghy]

Thanks for your response I appreciate it. I too have the bridal foil on my 5.8NA. In the states we call it the North American. The problem is that I need to roller furler where I live to manage the boat in and out of the launch ramp. When we do race, this is off the beach, and I go back to the original configuration for these events – not class legal here either.

The situation I have is that once on the water I have no way to adjust the luff on my jib, and sometimes it comes lose and needs to be tightened. Your system is the answer I have been looking for. My compliments to your engineering.

Also, I looked at the other photos you had supplied (sail #1606), and I am looking to incorporate a spinnaker to my boat. Could you send me some additional photos and some advice on how this was rigged? I have been checking with some of the local boats here in Ventura, Ca and they are somewhat a “Mickey Mouse” application. That set up in the photograph is what I have been looking for.

Appreciate it.

[Village Idiot]

Originally posted by catadinghy:

Thanks for your response I appreciate it. I too have the bridal foil on my 5.8NA. In the states we call it the North American. The problem is that I need to roller furler where I live to manage the boat in and out of the launch ramp. When we do race, this is off the beach, and I go back to the original configuration for these events – not class legal here either.

The situation I have is that once on the water I have no way to adjust the luff on my jib, and sometimes it comes lose and needs to be tightened. Your system is the answer I have been looking for. My compliments to your engineering.

Also, I looked at the other photos you had supplied (sail #1606), and I am looking to incorporate a spinnaker to my boat. Could you send me some additional photos and some advice on how this was rigged? I have been checking with some of the local boats here in Ventura, Ca and they are somewhat a “Mickey Mouse” application. That set up in the photograph is what I have been looking for.

Appreciate it.

I set up a spin on a 5.8 7-8 years ago ,it was not class legal at the time,I had it easily removable for class racing ,and set the kite up for some long distance yacht racing(before they banned me!) 5.8's in Aust were not running spins at that time that I am aware of?with that one I purchased a huge assametrical spin (It was really too big )I used a old broken carbon fiber fiberspar windsurfer mast which was about 12-13 foot long ,reinforced the pole at the end where wires attached and where it contacted the bridal foil and where it attached to the front beam.I had made a bag which I lashed to the tramp for the kite to store in,and incorperated a halyard system as used on skiffs ect where you pull one rope the halyard and it also pulls the clue to the end of the pole at the same time!attach some smart blocks to the rear beam and a block up above the forestay and your in buisness,not a bad system, kite was far too big and having a bag not a shute your crew has to be pretty much on the ball!!!!

my latest boat ( pictured above 1606)has a class legal set up.factory kite ,aluminium pole ,a spin shute off a capricorn F18 or taipan 4.9 ,5.7 ,the good thing about these spin shutes is that they velcro to the side of the spin pole not the bottom ,so it doesn't scoop as much water as there is more clearence above the water.This boat has a very clean system and it work well there is a continuous rope (halyard and retreiver line for the shute )which also pulls the clue out to the front of the pole

I do have some close up photo's of it but I don't have anywhere to host the pictures,I sent Graceland some good photos ,He may be able to put up a link or if you email me with your email address I can email em to you.

If you can have a look at the set up on a F18 a hobie tiger or similar they have the same set up ....

[GRACELAND1216]

Here is a photo of the jib luff downhaul on the boat, it works very well as long as you pre set the correct tension on the jib before leaving the shore.

[This message has been edited by GRACELAND1216 (edited 25 September 2005).]

[Two-Up 1635]

What is yellow ribbon & shock cord from bridle foil to forestay for ?

[GRACELAND1216]

Hi Two-Up 1635, Welcome to the Nacra forum. The shockcord and yellow electical tape is for keeping the spinnaker braces away from the chainplate and the centre post as they can fall in there and get jammed. The shockcord also holds the chainplate upright and makes it easier to rig the boat when connecting the forestay. Regards GRACELAND 1216 & 1591.

[Village Idiot]

Originally posted by GRACELAND1216:

Hi Two-Up 1635, Welcome to the Nacra forum. The shockcord and yellow electical tape is for keeping the spinnaker braces away from the chainplate and the centre post as they can fall in there and get jammed. The shockcord also holds the chainplate upright and makes it easier to rig the boat when connecting the forestay. Regards GRACELAND 1216 & 1591.

1591 Moody Blue //// So we've lost another quick boat to the southerners!!!!good on ya Graceland thats a fast boat you got there!!

[GRACELAND1216]

Originally posted by Village Idiot:

1591 Moody Blue //// So we've lost another quick boat to the southerners!!!!good on ya Graceland thats a fast boat you got there!!

Hi Jay, Sorry mate for stealing a boat up north, but there was nothing available down here, don't worry Dave will have his new 5.8 in a couple of weeks. 1591 is a shit load quicker than 1216. I'm trying to sort out the different kite systems. On 1216 i was using a kite bag on the tramp and on 1591 I have a dunny seat at the end of the pole.ATM i'm having trouble dropping the kite into the dunny seat quickly and without tangles, but mainly running over the kite itself. Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated. Regards GRACELAND 1216 & 1591.

[This message has been edited by GRACELAND1216 (edited 05 October 2005).]

[catadinghy]

This photograph answers a thousand questions. Here in the states I have never seen anyone attach the jib tack to the foil, it has always been to the chain plate.

I am going to give this a roll this weekend, looks like a far more efficient in getting more power, and pointing higher.