14ft forum?

[berny]

I'm wondering if we'd get more interest here on Catsailor in 14ft cat sailing if a), we made the Maricat forum a 14ft cat sailors forum or b), we had a separate open 14ft forum.

My reasons for suggesting this are that 14ft cat classes are integrating which makes for better racing in larger fleets and this means Maricat, Hobie, Paper Tiger and Windrush sailors (have I missed anyone) all have a common interest. This is quite unique in the sailing world and is a valuable asset to furthering the promotion of 14ft cats which I think is what we want if we believe that racing in larger fleets is a good thing and I doubt there's much argument there.

I don't think many if any Paper Tiger, Hobie or Windrush sailors would read the Maricat forum which means we are missing out on some valuable input and information distribution potential.

The problem with having two 14ft forums (assuming that's what happens) is that we again fragment the effort to combine all 14ftr's as a single class which would tend to diminish the strength of the campaign.

What say you?

Bern

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 20 June 2004).]

[Emmessee]

I would like to ask the question, where does a Nacra 14 sq fit in???

Can it be sailed in the 14 foot division or does it have to sal in the Misc 15 division (which there are next to no boats)?

They have good numbers sailing in QLD, and usually enough for their own class, but there are not enough here for a class and I know a couple of people with them sitting around and only being used for social sailing.

It would be good to get them on the water racing, but they ask the question of against who?

[Darryl J Barrett]

Here anything that has hulls less than 15' long sail together in what is loosly called 14', anything with hulls longer than 15' and shorter than 17' is loosely called 16', etc, the exception being for any yardstick regatta, then the size of the boat is irrelevent, divisions are determined by their yardstick ie division 1 all cats with yardsticks between 80 and 90, division 2, yardstick over 90, division 3, yardstick below 80.

Darryl

[Darryl J Barrett]

Those yardsticks are not "literal" but you get the picture? When the "14' cats" ie up to 15' in length, sail together their position for finish is determined by their appropriate yardstick or their club handicapping (if it is a club event for members), so that there is a relative course start and finish for all cats whereby they can all sail in equal competition.

Darryl

[Emmessee]

Thanks for that.

So I will now hound them to come along the the 14'regatta's.

[berny]

Mat, Darryl is talking about South Australia not NSW.

The Koonawarra Bay SC is the only club with any history in 14ft cat regattas except for one other that Mannering PK YC ran last year and because 14squ's are 14ft 5ins long, it has been determined by the K/Bay organisers in the past, that they are not 14ft'rs.

I guess it's really up to the organisers of the 14ft regattas to decide who is welcome. They are certainly outside the F14 'box rule' for eligibility in that class.

I personally have no objection to sailing against them but others may.

Bern

P.S. maybe they should sell their 14sq's and buy a Maricat

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 22 June 2004).]

[berny]

Of course none of this addresses the subject of the post, that being, 'do we want a 14ft forum here on Catsailor'?

Bern

[shy thunder]

My thoughts in having a chapter for maricats was to help promote the class and provide communications amongst the class.

Also this lets people know the class is still active state wide and as we found out still popular in TAsmania.

As to a 14 footer forum, I would be inclined to wait for the other classes to start posting before starting another post as we have the coffee shop for this already. If the tigers and windies etc feel this is a good method of communicating, the quantity of their posts will indicate the need.

Maybe start with a papertiger chapter and windrush as well to let the classes be independant of each other for a start then later combine them into the 14 footer forum.

It has taken a while for some of the members to utilise the chat forum, and it is good to see john m sweet 16 posting now, which is from the link on the ass.web site for maris.

Hope we can see some ideas for tuning and problem solving for all of the classes.

cheers

david

[Darryl J Barrett]

Jesus Berny if they do that to the 14sq, what do they do with the Maricat? Has anyone there actually put a tape measure over the Mari? If you measure the overal maximum -including the mouldings at the bow - it is also over 14', in fact I don't think that there is any established cat that actually comes in under 14', the paper tigers and the arrows would be the nearest, but even those are still slightly over the 14'. Besides I don't think I have ever seen a 14sq that is "way" faster than most other 14' cats, they have always been a very "condition specific" cat in which to get going, and seem to have a very narrow range of conditions in which they perform well.

Darryl

[Darryl J Barrett]

If you start a 14' cat forum, then give it an instantly recognisable title showing that it is for ALL "under 16'" cats, so that all the various classes will recognise that "their" class is also welcome.

Darryl

[Darryl J Barrett]

Mind you, it has been my experience that if someone approaches the "race" committee/OOD at a club where a race(s) are being conducted, and request that certain cats start and sail the same course together, then the OOD or relative official is only too happy to accomodate that request (unless it is a request that is obviously ridiculous). I have found thay most "mix ups" that occur between "classes" and courses, are usually the result of misunderstandings and lack of knowledge of certain classes by the "officials", which is understandable when it is obvious that most elected, volunteer, "officials" cannot be expected to be familiar with ALL classes of cats and/or mono hulls, and if they are unimformed, they will improvise, usually to the detriment of one class or another. Give them the correct information and most "officials" will get it right. it all comes down to communication.

Darryl

[berny]

David, I would have thought it best that we wait to see if there is sufficient interest in a 14ft forum before we allocate further chapters to other 14ft classes like the Hobies, Windies and/or PT's. As I said in my original post, integration is the key, the fewer class specific chapters the better IMHO, particularly for combating existing fragmentation, a legacy of having too many classes which has been the main bogie of all sailing in Oz.

My reasons for requesting a 14ft forum was to attract more 14ft sailors to the website by posting information specific to all 14ft classes and a 14ft forum does that by catering to everyone, not just one class. I also think that the integration of all 14ft classes at 14ft regattas is a huge step toward further development and promotion of cat sailing in general, it's significance being that 14ft classes are pretty much seen as the 'introduction to cat sailing' classes. This development is unique to the 14ft cats and any help to improve communications among the group is a step forward for cat sailing in general.

I guess that unless you've actually done one of K/Bay's regattas it's difficult to appreciate the significance of racing among a fifty strong combined fleet, on boats which have yardsticks that basically have them all on the same lap for the duration of the race, something you don't see often at a cat regatta. It's something to experience and the more we can encourage 14ft sailors to participate the better it's going to get. It's just possible that it could even be the rebirth of cat sailing as it once was. We can only hope.

Bern

[Darryl J Barrett]

We used to have a regular (annual) regatta here for many years Berny, called "the 14' cat challenge. it was traditionally sailed over a weekend (or long weekend) with 4 to 6 races (depending on the conditions and the length of the weekend). It was open to all "under 14'6" long cats, and was set up as a challenge between all the various classes of "14' cats" to primarily ascertain the "best 14'cat around the race course", but in reality it was just a realy great weekend of sailing and socialising between cat sailors all with 14' cats in common. Don't get me wrong there was fierce competition between the top sailors in each class and the results were always "not quite what was expected from club room scuttlebutt", but the majority of the sailors came to the event to "wave the flag" for their class and to enjoy the sailing and particularly the "after sail" socialising. It was highly successful with mixed 14' fleets sailing in numbers of from 50 to one year of over 120 cats on the water.

The results were unexpected as well as from memory, over one 5 year period the overall winners came from 4 different classes of 14' cats. The reults were worked on "the highest placed single cat over all the races sailed" -across the line and for yardstick as well -, "the class with the highest place three cats over all races (across the line)", and the "class with the highest placed three cats over all races, calculated on yardstick". So that the class with the "best sailor" wasn't neccessarily the "fastest class" or even the "fastest class on yardstick", as there had to be three sailors included in the result calculations, which made for interesting tacticqal sailing on the water. It did more for "inter class 14'cat" comraderie and acceptence of each other than years of sailing at the same clubs with those other classes but socialision only with your own "class" members, it drew all the 14' cat sailors together as a group and not as "I sail a paper tiger" or "I sail a Windrush", but more as "we all sail 14' cats".

Darryl

[Guest Tug Boat]

Queensland held our Arrow states in conjunction with the Paper Tiger's in last year. It was at one on Hervey Bays annual regattas. We had Twice as many 14s on the start line as usuall with some quite spectacular top mark roundings.

The more 14s together at once the more fun. I would love to see a 14 regatta come off and would be keen to help oganise the Queensland fleet to travel if neccessary. The Paper Tiger guy would be keen as well I'm sure.

[Dave]

Darryl,

The Koonawarra Bay 14ft Cat Regatta was set up to be an ideal racing format for boats of "similar" performance. That is why it is restricted to the "recognised" 14ft cats. These include Paper Tigers, Windrushes, Hobie 14s, Maricats, Arrows, Int 430s, etc.

In local regattas around here (Wollongong/Sydney), these classes have always had separate divisions to larger cats (larger including Nacra 14sq). The Nacra more equitable racing with the likes of Prindle 15s and Alpha Omegas.

However, at these big events, the 14ft cats were often treated as the "poor cousin". Koonawarra Bay recognised this and started the regatta (11 years ago) to make 14ft cats THE class at the event. There would be no "constantly being sailed over" by bigger cats. It also provided the chance for some of the 14ft cats with smaller fleets to get big fleet, competitive racing. And it has worked tremendously well. Some of the local guys with Nacra 14sqs sometimes borrow a 14ft cat so they can be a part of the event.

We don't apologise for excluding bigger cats. We believe it is for a good purpose. We welcome larger cats at our weekly racing and also at our end-of-season Cat Series.

Regards,

Dave Stumbles

Koonawarra Bay SC

[berny]

I remember a regatta by LMNCC at Rathmines, the 14sq Nacras were using the regatta as their states or nationals. They were very disappointed when they were 'lumped in' with the 14ft classes and after the first race they requested to be included in the 16 fleet instead. They got their wish. It also didn't help that the 430 was quicker

There's no doubt that the 14's have been treated very badly at open cat regattas. It's no fun sailing with a large fleet of bigger boats, being continually passed to windward and shouted at to get out of the bloody way. It's no fun to be last back to the clubhouse with nowhere to put your boat on the crowded beach, the beers warm and pies are all gone and it's time to get back out for the next race anyway.

No the 14ft regattas are the way to go. Maybe we should look at running one in September somewhere? That'd be September at ?, November at Mannering and Feb. at K/Bay. Somewhere were we'd get some exposure, like Manly (NSW) or Balmoral , right in the middle of the summer beach crowds.

Bern.

Bern

[Darryl J Barrett]

Personally I just like to sail, whether its in with sharpies, 505's arafura cadets, Tornados, 14' 16' or 18' cats doesn't bother me at all.

I find it exhillerating to sail against faster cats that are trying to overtake me, if they can sail, they (and I) have no problems, but if they try to sail through my back wind on the winward side they will sit there for ages and blame me for their own ineptitude, -- their problem, not mine -- I find that my sailing improves sailing against faster craft.

Darryl

[catsailor.net]

How about Maricat and all other 14 foot cats ? as a title

[This message has been edited by catsailor.net (edited 27 June 2004).]

[berny]

How about 'The 14ft forum'.

I know you Maricatters are loath to give up your 'Maricat' forum and I think that if you feel there's enough support, and it looks like there is, then by all means lobby to keep it and advocate for a separate 'open' 14ft forum, which incidentally, I also believe will attract good numbers from Windrush, Hobie, and in particular, Paper Tiger sailors.

There a significant numbers that I believe would support this site but currently there's nowhere for them to belong

Bern

Bern

[Emmessee]

I do not mind how the forum is run.

[Sweet16]

Just stepped out from the relative safety of the Maricat forum to read some of the other great posts on here.

I would be happy if Hobie 14, Windrush, 430, Paper tigers, Alpha's or even the Nacra 14sq guys want to join us in the Maricat area or other 14ft cat sailors forum. I would read both if they exist.

Personally I would also be happy to see the Nacra 14sq guys turn up at the MPSC 14 regatta on 13-14 November. They don't look too much longer to me.. and any other boat on the water that is similiar and likes to join us should be encouraged. Unless it wins by too far

What we usually do with faster catamarans at MPSC is get them to sail an extra lap. We have a Nacra 5.8, Hobie 16/s and the occasional A class that seem to blend in ok with the 14 cats. Have had a 14 square there but he ended up not racing.

Berny, your boat is probably much faster than the rest of us there, you would be welcome to start with us then do an extra lap with the larger boats if you wanted on a club race day. If you are ever passing through the area please stop by as the guys would be very interested in your boat.