Season preparations

[Whitewave]

From the class measurer. Very soon we'll be back on the water, and there's been some very useful advice given in this forum. For those intending to race in association events and are not sure about some aspects of class measurement, please check class rules. It's better to be sure before leaving home for the championships. Basic philosophy is “If it’s not specifically allowed in the rules, then assume it is not”. Feel free to contact me for clarification or ruling. There is a new sail measurement plan. Sailmakers will love it. I will be happy to forward this to your sailmaker.

TZ

[knobblyoldjimbo]

just a suggestion, why don't you just publish the specs (maybe as a separate document on the website) for all to view and then take to a sailmaker for quotes etc. I know the guy I use for other sails has been confused/irritated in the past because he didn't receive an update so built someone an 'old' sail. It'd also allow us traffic people to assess the differences rather than waiting to see a 'new' sail on the water.

there are plenty of other classes that do (505's, Etchells etc etc) and I think that simply indicates that the class is being managed in an open way (not that it isn't of course but it's often a matter of perception with new or prospective participants).

also, interestingly that same sailmaker can make me a racing sail in 'new tech' material that is cheaper than the 'new tech' tri-radial dacron sails. It doesn't seem that dacron is a material for the lower end of the market anymore.

KO

[Whitewave]

Good points KO. I have already discussed the website update with the committee. There are other updates to be made as well as the new sail measurement drawings, all to be done at once. Since we are closing in on the new season, this offer is to assist those who are planning early. Redhead and Barracouta both have the new sail drawings. As far as new tech materials, we will need to follow proper process, as directed by our constitution before any major changes can be permitted.

Sail hard, sail fair.

TZ

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Thanks for the reply.

Could you send the information to Dave Turner too: eastwindsails AT bigpond DOT com

He's made some pretty mean sails for my TY and also apparently made my current Mari sail (25 odd years ago when he was an apprentice!!).

Thanks

[This message has been edited by knobblyoldjimbo (edited 12 August 2008).]

[Whitewave]

Details sent to Dave Turner of eastwind sails as well as Geoff Adams of Adams sails.

Sail hard, sail fair.

TZ

[This message has been edited by Whitewave (edited 12 August 2008).]

[dan209]

Can i have my new sails made by anyone? If so how do i get a copy of the measurements?

[knobblyoldjimbo]

My understanding is yes, they abandoned the 'approved' list that the web site mentions so put a note up here and the specs will be sent.

KO

[Whitewave]

Dan, just provide me with your sailmaker contact details as KO did. I will send the standard email including drawings. Choose any sailmaker. The intent of the constitution is simply to have as close to one-design as possible. So the clearer it is for sailmakers, the better.

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Goto say that this has to be the better way.

Maybe you could put the details on the web, then even "home handymen" can make a legal sail.

KO

[ZAX]

just a comment on the new sail rules. I think this a fantastic step forward but. There are a number of sails including my own that would not be legal under the new rules.

the maricat insignia is now not optional and must be black and red. On all my sails the insignia has been black and blue. and chance of some flexibility here for older sails?

cheers and good sailing

[Whitewave]

Thanks for your comments, John. I am pleased you contacted me prior to the titles. This saves time and ensures confidence before you leave home for the titles. Although insignia has been optional, it has always been red and black in the constitution. With the clarifications addressed in the rules update, there will be room for flexibility on a case by case basis. In your case you will not be penalised. However your future sails will need to comply. Criteria used here, in order of importance, were: 1.Item does not affect performance. 2.Spec not clear in Rules. 3.Correction may cause damage to sailcloth.

[This message has been edited by Whitewave (edited 14 November 2008).]

[ZAX]

Hi Tony, thanks for the clarification. It is good to have confidence in the fact that a boat previously completely class legal will not be penalised by the introduction of new rules. It is great that the rules are being made more clear and this should help the maricat as a class into the future. great work Tony.

[ZAX]

another rule change I am unsure on. previously for the jib bridle measurement it was taken from eyelet to eyelet as 1010cm. Now that is taken from the shackle if I understand it correctly. When I sail sloop or supersloop I dont use a shackle on these other than to attach the furler. Will this still be legal under the new rules? Basically if its not it means a bit of retuning.

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Simple mate - sail Cat like the rest of the competition!!!

[Whitewave]

[John, This is another area that needed clarification for consistency. If you and a mate put a pencil into the thimbles at each end of a bridle wire and pull till tight while holding just the pencils, then the points at which the pencils touch the thimbles are the measurement points. Simply measure between these two points. As you would know, the limit here is set in order to limit the inward force applied to the hulls when sloop rigged. It's a very important spec for structural integrity. It's also crucial to fit the bridle to the bow saddle with a D-shackle for the same reason. If necessary this will be added to future updates, but that is what I will expect to see even with the current rules.

[ZAX]

you have not actually answered my question as to whether under the new rules my setup is still legal. I have already given you the measurements of wire which is 1010 as per existing rules. If under the new rules my setup is not legal then yes I would take the advice of others and not sail sloop. There has never been a requirement to use D shackles provided the wires are correct length so why introduce it now.

What has been the consideration in implementing these new rules? I would hope that some criteria has been used such as;

1. promote participation in sailing maricats

2. encourage youth in sailing maricats

other criteria such as not impacting existing members might also be nice. I looked around the race course last weekend and spotted 5 maricat sails without the black and red insignia. We dont have all that many boats on the water so why make these guys illegal or even give them doubt that they may be illegal?

At this point I would not be coming to the States as I would not feel comfortable of being a legal entrant after Sunday when the new rules come in. I would not particularly like ot just be at the mercy of the measurer as to whether I can sail or not. Prefer to see things clear and fair.

[korwich]

As I read the proposed rule changes the bridle length must be 1010 from shackle bearing surface to shackle bearing surface or more correctly the inside surface of the eye to inside surface of the eye.

It does not state that you cannot use a D shackle or that you must. The critical thing here is that the bridle wire must be long enough to prevent the hulls being pulled together, by a bridle that is at too obtuse an angle. That length is set at 1010mm.

If you wish to use a stay adjuster, string of shackles, lashing of rope etc on the end of the wire to get your correct mast rake, or jib sheet angle etc that is up to you. The rules are not disallowing that. The wording of the rule change is to set the point at which the measurement is to be taken. Previous to this there was confusion as to where the measuement was to be taken, overall lenght of the wire from outside of eye to outside of eye or inside to inside as now ruled.

Am I correct on this Tony.

Cheers

Phil

[korwich]

Just went and measured the distance between the bow saddles on bulldozer which I got as 1840mm approx centre to centre.

I then projected that up in Autocad with a minumum bridle lenght of 1010mm and forming an equal legged tringle. I got an included angle between the legs of the bridle of 131 degrees.

Therefore it would be logical to assume that as long as your bridle legs are 1010mm from inside of eye to inside of eye (ie where the shackle pin bears) you should have an included angle of 130 deg or higher eg 135,140,145, degrees between the legs of your bridle.

Interestingly the leg lenghts of my bridle are only 960mm inside to inside, so off I go to buy some more plastic coated. Something to keep one occupied on a cold rainy sunday afternoon when theres no sailing.

Phil

[ZAX]

There is also a new rule change on the rudders, I would question this one as typically the sailors do their own repairs when a rudder is left dragging on the road etc. Anyone who has used anything other than polyester for the repair would have illegal rudders after the new rule comes in. Epoxy is generally easier to use for repairs for ahome handyman.

To me there seems to not have been much thought or reason behind some of the changes.

Sail measurement was previously simple by using the black bands on mast and boom it was easy to see if a sail was not right. Now it must be meansured on the ground.

Allowing 8:1 mainsheet is a good move as it directly encourages youth so I can see th point with this one.

The skipper minimum weight that can make use of an overweight boat also looks a good rule change as it can also engourage youth.

seriously would question the benefit of changing rules such as the sail insignia and others that don't directly support participation in the sport or youth. where did these changes actually come from?

A general statement to say that boats previously legal would remain so for some time if not indefinately would certainly help here.

[Whitewave]

Phil is 99% correct, except that bridle wire and shackle are the minimum requirement, as you would have received a sloop rigged boat to date, if you ordered it from the manufacturer. If the manufacturer was to change that spec, the association would request details of which boats (by date-of-manufacturer or serial number) the change would affect. If you wish to add more shackles, rope or adjusters beyond the minimum requirement, as long as the end result is lifting the centre of the bridle and thus a progressive decrease in stress to the bows, no problem. You decide whether you consider it secure / strong enough to keep the mast up or prevent damage to boat or crew. John's current setup will be illegal. I know he is very experienced and will have no problem complying, while still maintaining his current performance. I've raced sloop continuously for the past 12yrs and I don't see this as a major issue. Please remember if it's not specifically permitted in the class rules, it is most probably not permitted. Do as John and Phil are doing, and consult the measurer. If there is a burning issue that a lot of sailors are confused about, this would be a trigger for another update. Sail hard, sail fair. TZ

[korwich]

Tony

The change as recorded states I quote,

"measured between the shackle to thimble contact surfaces at either end of the wire."

Unquote. The specs do not state that you have to in fact have a shackle on the end of the wire.

If you now have to 1 shackle, how big does it need to be, is it a D shackle,or a bow shackle, should it be placed at the hull end of the bridle or the furler end, this I feel is what john is trying to clarify as a lack of detail.

You state this in your post that the bridle has to be attached to the hull end, however it is not stated in the rules as a requirement to have a shackle to attach the bridle to the hulls.

I use 3 shackles total on my bridle, 1 large bow shackle joins both ends of the bridle wires to my furler and I use a bow shackle on each of 2 stay adjusters which attach to my bow saddles, however I am only really using the pin of the shackle in attaching the the wire to the adjuster even though the shackle body is retaining the pin in the adjuster. From my interpretation that can be classed as using a shackle on the end of the bridle wire.

In the general specs' it is also stated quote,"quick connecting couplings maybe used where ever required". Is this now being overridden by this supposed bridle shackle rule.

If the association wants to start clarifing all the rules and specifications it has to state all and sundry to specifics otherwise they will have these sort of issues cropping up. If it is left to the discretion of the measurer to best interpret rubbery specs expect fireworks in the rigging area before titles.

Phil

Don't you wish I had gone sailing today?

[Whitewave]

Good on you Phil. I didn't sail this weekend either because the oysters were being blown off the rocks. Hence I can check out this forum. Let's address these issues simply. The basic bridle setup with furler, consists of a shackle (usually a bow) at the furler, the wires, then a shackle attaching the wire to the bow saddle on each hull. If you chose to use the smallest available shackle that will fit to the furler and the hull, it's your decision whether you consider these to be strong enough. I can only make a ruling on what is presented to me. The class measurer is not responsible for redesigning the boat, particularly in areas concerning structural integrity, and this is certainly the case here. Therefore anything that results in lowering the centre of the bridle can not pass. If you add adjusters to each of the specified length bridle wires, they will most certainly result in the lifting the centre of the bridle higher than the basic setup. I don't know why you would want to raise it that far, and I would like to confirm my understanding with pics or in the flesh, but you seem to be heading in the direction of less stress on the hulls, ie better than the minimum requirement, in which case you will be legal. The criteria used for this ruling (pending visual confirmation) is "structural integrity is not reduced by your setup". The rules don't specifically say a lot of things. I would rather not have to add any more detail to this spec in the rules. Otherwise you will need to be a lawyer to formulate and interpret them. The current flexibility will allow quick connect attachments. Again, you have done the right thing in seeking a ruling before the titles, and very importantly being specific to your own boat. I trust this helps. TZ

[ZAX]

I would like to leave my setup as it is. I see no advantage to anyone with the rule change on jib bridle... seems just more confusing. Extra shackles are just another point of failure on the boat.

Would suggest everyone sail cat rigged

[Pointed Reply]

As I understand it, these rules are just PROPOSED changes to the NSW & ACT Association, which need to be debated and voted on at the AGM. As such they would not apply until the next season or as decided by the AGM. There-fore the CURRENT rules stand for the NSW & ACT State Titles this weekend and cannot apply to the National Titles.

We will be sailing Sloop, with our boat in the same configuration as always which I'm sure does comply with the current rules AND the proposed clarifications.

I think that the NSW & ACT Association, under the National Association constitution has the right to act as the National Association (as there are no other active State Associations), but it must be done specifically in line with the constitution at a properly notified meeting.

[ZAX]

glad your boat is ok... what about others.

my understanding is that since the AGM is in the middle of the championships, if the new rules are voted in they could take effect from that point forward. Tony has already said that my setup will not be legal since he thinks its important to add shackles now to the bridle. So half way through the series I would have an illegal boat. Does not sound fun to me. When you say they come into effect next season, what exact start date is that?