HooD Posted May 26, 2003 Report Share Posted May 26, 2003 I am not sure how relevant this is to other yacht clubs, but I just wanted to get some opinions that didnt have a vested interest. Our yacht club isnt a huge club, this season coming we will have 8 18footers about 10 16's and few 14 footer's. In the season just past, we opened up a real can of worms. it was felt that the majority of the 16foot fleet had older boats, were mostly new sailors, and did not stand a chance against two very new, and well sailed cobra's. so we promoted the two cobra's to the 18 foot fleet. Some of the 18foot guys are happy to sail against the 16footer's, others are not, and I can undertand why, on some occasions the 16footers win, not because of the way they are sailed, but because of the yardstick advantage. (when ever the race becomes becalmed, the 16footers get a time advantage) I can already hear Mal and Andrew say yardsticks are worthless anyway, but i guess thats beside the point when the fleets are so small. The question really is, should we let the 16footers stay in division 1 (18's), or send them back to division 2(16's) ??? Darren. Lauderdale yacht club www.lyc.catsailor.org [This message has been edited by HooD (edited 26 May 2003).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Holden Posted May 26, 2003 Report Share Posted May 26, 2003 Darren, Could not help answer with that bait in the water... We are in a similar position too your club, We also have a mix of all types of boats and sailing skills. Basically the only way i can think of allowing for "close" racing is to place the 16's back into their class and start applying a club handicap on the boats within the class based on club results. The sailwave scoring www.sailwave.com program available free caters for club handicaps and over a period of time it becomes quite accurate. The other solution is to place all the entries in a hat and draw 1st 2nd and 3rd - probably fairer and just as accurate as using the VYC at club events anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 I duno about bait, but we certainly have a few ruffled feathers down here! Its funny you should mention sailwave, about a month ago, I set the club up with a new computer runing sailwave, they had a 386 running win3.11 and a DOS based program, that was overly complex. I have not found the spot that does the handicaps yet, but i did find it makes yardsticks for given class of boats based on performance of the fleet, very clever. otherwise it does everything else very nicley, like making the signon/off sheets, and exporting to HTML is great! There is another factor here, and that is a lot of the 18foot guys want to bring in windward/leeward courses, but the two 16footers are not so keen, as they cant or wont go wild downwind. edit: There are as yet no automated personal handicap facilities built into Sailwave. However each competitor in a series can have a competitor-specific rating value; Sailwave does not insist on the standard class value, although Sailwave may set it initially when entering the competitor details - simply change it appropriately to have a personalised value for that competitor. You can also set a different handicap for a competitor in each race of the series. ok this is one feature, I really want. [This message has been edited by HooD (edited 27 May 2003).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 Originally posted by HooD: I duno about bait, but we certainly have a few ruffled feathers down here! Its funny you should mention sailwave, about a month ago, I set the club up with a new computer runing sailwave, they had a 386 running win3.11 and a DOS based program, that was overly complex. I have not found the spot that does the handicaps yet, but i did find it makes yardsticks for given class of boats based on performance of the fleet, very clever. otherwise it does everything else very nicley, like making the signon/off sheets, and exporting to HTML is great! There is another factor here, and that is a lot of the 18foot guys want to bring in windward/leeward courses, but the two 16footers are not so keen, as they cant or wont go wild downwind. edit: There are as yet no automated personal handicap facilities built into Sailwave. However each competitor in a series can have a competitor-specific rating value; Sailwave does not insist on the standard class value, although Sailwave may set it initially when entering the competitor details - simply change it appropriately to have a personalised value for that competitor. You can also set a different handicap for a competitor in each race of the series. ok this is one feature, I really want. [This message has been edited by HooD (edited 27 May 2003).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 Sorry about the above post - wrong button. This is an issue our fleet is going to face this year as we have both strong fleets of Tigers (6 regulars) and H18's (23 if everybody shows up - average 15). As a Tiger sailor, windward/returns suit me fine but I can see where the 18's are coming from as they are dead boring off the breeze unless it is really blowing. At this stage it looks that we will run both configurations and adjust the amount of laps so that finishing times will be similar. Except for a few limited races we won't even bother trying to yardstick the boats into 1 division. Michael PS 5 Tigers on the water for a very cold training session at Frankston the week before last + a new boat was bolted together last Saturday - wahoo! If you are in Victoria and are interested in F18, come visit Frankston Yacht Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 Yardsticks are never right for everyone. Some conditions suit some designs more than others. Some courses favour some designs more than others. In my opinion, some classes should be given a very harsh yardstick, because they have no minimum crew weight. Only boats with class rules that promote uniformity deserve a reliable yardstick. Probably the best solution for club racing is a personal modified yardstick to take consideration of ability, boat condition etc. Alternate the courses between triangle and windward/return. Above all, give every competitor a good reason to turn up again next week. For some events, the QLD Hobie Assoc issues points for places gained in regattas. At the end of the series, points are converted into raffle tickets for the prize draw. This way, everyone has a chance of winning but there is still an incentive to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inland_Sailor Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Quote "Some of the 18foot guys are happy to sail against the 16footer's, others are not, and I can undertand why, on some occasions the 16footers win, not because of the way they are sailed, but because of the yardstick advantage. (when ever the race becomes becalmed, the 16footers get a time advantage)" This is very much the case when you sail in mixed fleets at a small inland club as I do. We sail all classes and the Cats are mixed with the Monos and Trailables. So under VYC and with the generaslly lighter conditions experienced with inland sailing, we find that the longer your handicap, the greater your habdicapp advantage. So wover a 100 minute race, a so called fast cat like a Tiapan, Mossie or a Nacra have to get a huge break on the slower cats. Its almost impossible for them to take the points except in Spring when the winds are stronger. So what do we do if we want to win? Look for a boat with a genourous handicap and sail it as fast as it can go. The five minutes that you can make up is always multiplied for the faster boats. As some one once said about our club. "It must be the only club in the world where sailors go for the longest handicap" So handicaps can work for you if you match your boat to your local conditions, which is where most people sail 95% of the time. Ps I still havn't figured out why sail just windward and return. The reaching legs in a triangular race are the most exciting and produce great passing duels!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Pearls of wisdom there Mal! The raffle idea is excellent, that is what we really need to aim for, to give everyone a chance at winning a prize. I am sure some of the sailors become disillusioned, because some of the sailors never get a chance to win a race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 I thought John Dowling sumed up windward/leeward courses v trinagles quite well: I'd like to raise for discussion the issue of course configuration and number of races for the upcoming Stingray/Cobra Nationals. I propose that we use the format now commonly used for State and National Titles in a lot of the more popular classes such as A's, Taipans, Nacras Hobies and many others. It is basically short course racing with more heats of a shorter duration run back to back. Typically a nationals would consist of 10 or 12 heats allowing 3 drop races. It usually means about the same time on the water because races are shorter. The advantage is boats don't have time to get so spread out over the course so much and you have closer more competitive and exciting racing.Starting skills become more important, and if you happen to stuff up a race there is always another one to come back in! Most clubs are now familiar with the back to back starting process and it can be easily done if starts are below the leeward mark and a "hollywood" finish is used. They don't even have to move the start boat. The course configuration is windward/leeward often with a short 100 metre offset reach to clear the windward mark. This eliminates reaches where there is no tactical sailing and are usually just a procession. Downwinds have become very tactical with the modern sailing "wild" technique and the ability to choose different sides of the course to gain (or lose) an advantage.I realise this course may not be as suited to the Cobra so they could still sail a triangle, windward leeward and triangle while the Stingrays do four windward leewards. I think this change would help continue the rejuvination of these classes by providing closer more exciting racing and demonstrate to other sailors that we are moving with the times. What do you all think? John Dowling Stingray 589 Wet 'n' Wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Palmer Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Mixed fleets can be fun but is there any point in getting too serious when everyones on a different design? My last race on a N5.8 saw us continually trying to overtake an arrow (very well sailed of course)in very strong winds, he sure kicked ass on handicap but everyone who didn't swim was grinning ear to ear. May I suggest everyone sell up and get a hobie16 !!!! Ho Ho Ho Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Holden Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 From Inland Sailor "I still havn't figured out why sail just windward and return. The reaching legs in a triangular race are the most exciting and produce great passing duels!!!" Start wild riding - you will go downhill faster and have just as much excitement as a reach but your sailing skills will improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 For sure, once you get up and wild siding, its quite a rush. Your always on the balance point and takes a reasonble amount of practice to get it working well. If you do it properly, you can go deeper and faster than ever before. If you want to know more, heres a "how to wild thing" by John Forrbes http://www.catsailor.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=50&sid=bea0ab20c15020977e31fcf9993fe9d7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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