HooD Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 Well doing the Moderators job Lets compare the F-18 with a VYC of 72 to that of the Nacra 5.8 VYC 72. Weight: Both 180 Kilo's (well close enough) Sail Area: Nacra 5.8 22.39SqM F-18 20.45SqM to 21.15SqM depending on crew F-18 carries Kite 19SqM - 21SqM depending on crew weight. Hull design Nacra 5.8 = early 80's F-18 = late 90's and still developing Mast section: Nacra 5.8 carries alum pylon f-18 wing section Other advantages of F-18 over Nacra 5.8 Cantered hulls self tacking jib fairer bow sections list goes on What conclusions can we draw if any?: The nacra 5.8 must be faster to windward than a f-18, because they should kill a 5.8 while using the kite?. The kite isnt making that much difference, as was reported by the Tornado association?. The F-18 really is faster but the VYC need a new set of glasses to see it?. Anybody have any numbers on how many F-18's exist because the Nacra 5.8 is a international standard that ALREADY EXISTS, so get over it. (where have I heard that before??) Flame away. [This message has been edited by HooD (edited 05-03-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berthos Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 Interesting comparison HooD!! Keep stirring!! Berthos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Holden Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 Guys, Would you prefer to sail a one "rule" class (F18) where every boat has the same yardstick and conforms to exactly same weight and sail areas or would you prefer to be in the situation we are in now where Each year the boats come out lighter that the previous (bet your boat Hood would be heavier than my 16xx boat) people get lighter crews every year to remain competative (F18 requires crew to be min 150kg or be penalised by weight) Cannot race against the other classes (Taipan and Hobie) because boats are not built to the same rules. Interested in your thoughts. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolj Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 To Hood, have you seen the mast on the F18 ?? It certainly isn't a "Wing" mast as we have come to know them, or in the same genre as say...a taipan. p.s. Manufacturer claims NACRA 5.8 to weigh in @ 160kg fully rigged....... is that really "close enough" ? [This message has been edited by coolj (edited 05-03-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nacra 5.8 with kite Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 With a Kite the 5.8 will be close to 180Kg But then the VYC is 69.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Holden Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 The Mast for the Nacra F18 is very close in outside shape and aspect to the nacra 5.8 but differs in the internal shape and thickness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 3, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 CoolJ: 1) http://www.performancecat.com/nacra58.htm 181Kilos fully riiged straight fromt he USA nacra dealer site. also its in the rules for N 5.8's (its says 400lbs) so i rekon its close enough. 2) the Boyer F-18 has the same wing as the Taipan 5.7, plus http://digilander.iol.it/mikan1/ this is my vote for the sexiest F-18. ( It has a cute wing section too) I have been doing a lot of homework on the F-18's, In eurpoe they look pretty huge, with big fleets, but those guys seem to get huge fleets for every cat. I have to admit the more I look at the class, the more I like em, That Capricorn boat really does it for me Oh, Andrew, doesnt a F-18 get heavy after a few years, or is there a miricale cure they have found??? It would have been nice if they had more rig options, like for the 175-200 kilo crews, or even have it like the 18ft skiffs, "sail with whatever you can handle" that could make for some interesting racing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berthos Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 Andrew, We all sail our particular boats for different reasons - price, whether we sail solo or two up, whether we are a bit wimpy and can't move a heavier boat around the beach (like me), number of boats in the class etc. But one thing I''m sure we all want is big fleets and close racing. The formula system seems to me to be an excellent way to acheive this. I'm all for formula racing. It's probably just on the particular formula that appeals to me that we differ. That's not a problem of course because if we all had the same opinion the world would be a boring place. On your comment about boats getting lighter each year this applies to Nacras I guess from what you were saying and possibly other classes but it doesn't actually apply to the class that I have chosen to sail - the Taipan 4.9. Taipans have a minimum boat weight restriction. This avoids the "new boats are winners" problems which seems to occur in some other classes. In fact I think the National Cat Rig championship has been won most times by Taipan AUS003 or thereabouts - one of the first Taipan 4.9's ever manufactured. In a sense I guess the Taipan 4.9 is almost a formula class. There is a minimum weight, restricted dimensions of sails, max mast height amongst other things. The only difference between Taipans and a formula class is probably that the Taipans have to have practically identical hulls. Anyone can manufacture Taipans if they want to. My Taipan is a homebuilt timber boat and ran third in an Australian Cat rigged championships (not with me on it). Within the boxrules of a Taipan you can use any sailmaker, any mast manufacturer, layout the running rigging anyway you like. This is very "formula" without being actually being called that. This probably goes a long way to explaining the sucess of the Taipan class. Not everyone of course wants to sail a Taipan 4.9. It's not a suitable boat for a couple of big blokes - even two average blokes are at the top end of the weight range for crews. I of course wish the F18 class success. I'm sure it will go very well considering the talented and dedicated people who are supporting it. Rob. [This message has been edited by berthos (edited 05-03-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Holden Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 Rob, A very good reply. You may be interested to know that the taipan 4.9 is a foundation boat in the F16HP Formula 16 class and I believe that this will be the "other" major class we need to push as we already have 60+ boats turning up for your Taipan Nationals . see www.geocities.com/F16HPclass/ These 2 formulas then fit pretty well everyone - probably not ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Holden Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 Oh, Andrew, doesnt a F-18 get heavy after a few years, or is there a miricale cure they have found??? What I was meaning is that the 5.8 with a 1300 number for instance was heavier than a 1600 when it came out of the mould. The Boyer F18 is not yet being built - The original Taipan F18 has been scrapped yes the capricorn does look good - look forward to seeing it sail. Originally posted by HooD: CoolJ: 1) http://www.performancecat.com/nacra58.htm 181Kilos fully riiged straight fromt he USA nacra dealer site. also its in the rules for N 5.8's (its says 400lbs) so i rekon its close enough. 2) the Boyer F-18 has the same wing as the Taipan 5.7, plus http://digilander.iol.it/mikan1/ this is my vote for the sexiest F-18. ( It has a cute wing section too) I have been doing a lot of homework on the F-18's, In eurpoe they look pretty huge, with big fleets, but those guys seem to get huge fleets for every cat. I have to admit the more I look at the class, the more I like em, That Capricorn boat really does it for me Oh, Andrew, doesnt a F-18 get heavy after a few years, or is there a miricale cure they have found??? It would have been nice if they had more rig options, like for the 175-200 kilo crews, or even have it like the 18ft skiffs, "sail with whatever you can handle" that could make for some interesting racing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berthos Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 I have been following the F16HP class with some interest. It does seem like an excellent formula. They claim on their site that F16HP has the same Texel rating as F18 and should race F18 on elapsed time. It remains to be seen how close they come in reality. If they are in fact close enough to race head to head on elapsed time and the F16HP class takes off here along with the F18 we will be in for some excellent racing!! You and I will be happy anyway. Rob. PS I look forward to having an in person conversation about this and other things sailing when you come to Mission Beach. I'll be up to Ellis Beach or the Port before then probably anyway - I may see you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolj Posted May 4, 2002 Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 What applies to american NACRA, does not apply to Australian NACRA's. Completely different boats, for instance Australia is the only place in the world that the 5.8 is sailed without a flat top main. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlar Posted May 4, 2002 Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 A few facts Straight from the nacra web site USA & AUSTRAILA & HOBIE TIGER WEB USA NACRA 5.8 Length: 19' (5.79m) Width: 8' (2.44m) Drafts: Boards Up: 5" (12.7cm) Boards Down: 38" (96.5cm) Sail Area: (251 sq. ft. (22.39m2) Weight: 410 lbs. (181kg) Mast Length: 30'7" (9.32m) Australia NACRA 5.8 SPECIFICATIONS Length 5.8m Beam 2.5m Sail Area 22.8 sq m (Plus Kite) Weight 160kg Designer Roy Seaman International Hobie Tiger Length : 5,51 m Width : 2,50/2,60 m Mast height : 9,00 m Weight W/ Spi : 180 kg Main Sail area : 17,00 m² Jib sail area : 3,45/4,15 m² spinnaker area: 19/21m2 So here are the FACTS let the figures tell the story Kevlar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolj Posted May 4, 2002 Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 Thank you Kevlar, I rest my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Holden Posted May 4, 2002 Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 The Nacra 5.8 does NOT have a flat top main anywher in the world as it does not have a boom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 CoolJ I take your point about the Australian Nacra 5.8 @160Kilo, I did not realize there was a difference, and to be honest I think it is a bad idea, I mean how can you have a world titles with 2 standards of boats. Now i see why the later Nacra 5.8's are lighter, I suspect a rule change somewhere along the line (can some one shed some light here). Andrew, just because the 5.8 has a boomless rig, does not affect the sail plan that can be used. There is plenty of roach in a standard 5.8 main to control, so i cant see why a square top would not work. And you buy them here if so desired. http://www.murrays.com/archive/50-51.pdf I dont know how that works in with the Aussie rules, if they are legal or not, but i cant see why the would not be legal as they are still the same size. Anyway the nature of a developmental class is to develop, and go faster, you only have to look at the A-Class cats, over the last 10 years their VYC has steadly been dropping, with the f-18 rules allowing for developent of hull design. I'm sure somewhere down the track something will come out that is significantly faster, it has to, or there would be no point in having a developmental class. It's early days yet, I guess all will be revealed in a few years. edit: Kevlar what exactly is your point? could it be: Cut & paste is really kewl, please try it???. [This message has been edited by HooD (edited 05-04-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolj Posted May 4, 2002 Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 Flat top mains are used extensively on the 5.8 throughout Europe & the United states. Does one require photographic evidence ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Holden Posted May 4, 2002 Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 post an image of 5.8 with flat top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 Yeah coolj, I have found references to them, but no photo's, they would have to be faster, and more controlable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlar Posted May 4, 2002 Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 My point is guy's that they are different boats for a different type of sailing. Let's not compare chalk & cheese. Unless your doing a handicap race then it's the figures that determan that. Let's get the F18'S sailing fast help each other & get the aus boats going the fastest. So then we can host a F18 worlds & kick some butt. PS: Lets get the F18 association up & running. Get a regatta cricuit happining. Kevlar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolj Posted May 4, 2002 Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 Unfortunately I can't find the photo's of the flat top 5.8, however I WILL find some have Diagram of the NACRA 570 in the UK has a boomless flat top....... so there goes yur theory bout that... *yuk yuk yuk* Just cant figure out how to get the picture in ere !! *scratches head* here is an excerpt from the "Murrays" web site. Tri-Radial Main Sails for Cats without Booms by Calvert Sails Square head design and extra panels radiating from the clew traveler optimize sail shape and control on boomless mainsails of Nacra 5.5/5.8/6.0. Choice of materials dictates choice of colors. Add $100 for all Kevlar construction. Sails do not include clew travelerassembly or traveler car; recycle yours or order separately. 30-6048 Mainsail Tri-Radial $1395.00 56-8610 Traveler Track Assembly (Main Clew as on Nacra 5.5, 5.8, 6.0) $285.00 28-0172 Traveler Car Hi-Load $106.55 by Calvert Sails All Tri-Radial mainsails are available as either Pin Heads or Square Heads! [This message has been edited by coolj (edited 05-04-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 Originally posted by Kevlar: My point is guy's that they are different boats for a different type of sailing. Let's not compare chalk & cheese. Kevlar I chose the Nacra 5.8 to compare for the reason it has a VYC of 72 the same as the hobie tiger (an F-18) it could have been any boat in the low 70 catagory to campare too, in the eyes of the VYC the Nacra 5.8 and the hobie tiger should complete the course in the same elapesed time, precisley. according to the VYC compareing the nacra 5.8 and the f-18 should be like compareing yellow chalk with brown chalk. the real topic of this thread is (or should be) is it fair or not? to a lot of people the VYC will be an issue, as you will not find 10-20 F-18's at every yacht club in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlar Posted May 5, 2002 Report Share Posted May 5, 2002 Well if want to compare the two Boats Look at the info i gave to you eariler in the peice. the tiger is heavier shorter & less sail area when compaired to the 5.8 with kite. This is the Fact Originally posted by HooD: I chose the Nacra 5.8 to compare for the reason it has a VYC of 72 the same as the hobie tiger (an F-18) it could have been any boat in the low 70 catagory to campare too, in the eyes of the VYC the Nacra 5.8 and the hobie tiger should complete the course in the same elapesed time, precisley. according to the VYC compareing the nacra 5.8 and the f-18 should be like compareing yellow chalk with brown chalk. the real topic of this thread is (or should be) is it fair or not? to a lot of people the VYC will be an issue, as you will not find 10-20 F-18's at every yacht club in Australia. To this you haven't got 10 - 20 5.8's all with the same rig at the yacht club's I hope/ know that in a few years will have those type of no's with the F18'S. THEN we will all sail of the one start line & who gets over the line first wins. Thats what the F18 is about not the 5.8nacra with 3 types of rig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 5, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2002 Kevlar you have missed the boat AGAIN. I am going to type this very slowly so you can understand it VYC Nacra 5.8 WITHOUT KITE is 72 VYC Hobie Tiger WITH KITE is 72 can you agree that the VYC for the two boats is the same? which do you think is faster in real life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlar Posted May 5, 2002 Report Share Posted May 5, 2002 HOOD I THOUGHT THIS WAS A F18 SITE NOT A 5.8 STIE. ALSO THE ONLY 5.8'S I SAIL AGAINST HAVE KITS KEVLAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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