Dave Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Koonawarra Bay Sailing Club has been reviewing the yardstick for the foam sandwich Maricat. Besides our own regatta, the only information we have is from Mannering Park's 14ft Cat Regatta held last year. This provides some excellent information, as numerous top sailors from a variety of classes were in attendance. And yes, we will take more than just Bundy's results into account! I am trying to establish which Maricats were actually foam sandwich. Some I am fairly certain about, but others I am not sure of. If anyone could provide feedback in this regard it would be greatly appreciated. I have listed the Maricats that entered the regatta below, including sail number, rig configuration, yardstick applied at the regatta, boat name and skipper. (The reason I can't base it on yardstick alone is that skipper weight was also applied to the yardsticks). Assumed Foam Sandwich Boats ======================= 50 Maricat Cat 92 Salty Lips Brenton Curran 5640 Maricat Cat 92 Humungus II Mick Colecliffe 5555 Maricat Cat 92 Sandwich Action Darren Bundock 5009 Maricat Cat 92 Brewin Sails Steven Brewin 526 Maricat Sloop 90 White Wave Tony Zahra Boats we are not sure about ==================== 5088 Maricat Cat 94 Mudda Fink I Ken Chris Blackford 3571 Maricat Cat 92 Lemminkainen John Taylor 16 Maricat Cat 94 Sweet 16 Jason Kakato 3570 Maricat Cat 99 Aushwedersein Keith White 5277 Maricat Cat 95 Sunnyside Up Rob Rimington 966 Maricat Cat 99 Tub Nigel Williams 500 Maricat Cat 95 Ins & Outs Jeremy Arnold 3058 Maricat Cat 94 Finline John Kersh 3536 Maricat Cat 100 Yuk Darcy Wilson 2966 Maricat Cat 94 Ashleigh Megan Brewin 161 Maricat Cat 94 Sea Frog 5 Dominic Smith 6 Maricat Cat 94 Snow Fox Israel Smitn 3017 Maricat Cat 94 3017 James Wearing 5008 Maricat Sloop 92 Pointed Reply Rodney Anderson 4001 Maricat Sloop 93.5 Wild Tiger Robert Simpson 5608 Maricat S/S S/Sloop 87.5 Dog Boy Scott Spencer 4114 Maricat S/S S/Sloop 89.5 Dakota Adrien Heap 5005 Maricat S/S S/Sloop 89.5 Bulldozer Philip Johnston 4100 Maricat S/S S/Sloop 89.5 Helter Skelter Nick Ward 5680 Maricat S/S S/Sloop 88.5 Black Pearl Peter Breaden 4111 Maricat S/S S/Sloop 88.5 Gramps Rick Prowse Thanks for any assistance you can provide. Also, if anyone else has any results from suitable events that compare good sailors on foam sandwich Maricats to good sailors on other 14ft cats (including non-foam Maricats), I would love to hear from you. Regards, Dave Stumbles Koonawarra Bay SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 My 0,02c Definitely NOT foam sandwich: 16 Maricat Cat 94 Sweet 16 Jason Kakato 5277 Maricat Cat 95 Sunnyside Up Rob Rimington 500 Maricat Cat 95 Ins & Outs Jeremy Arnold 161 Maricat Cat 94 Sea Frog 5 Dominic Smith 6 Maricat Cat 94 Snow Fox Israel Smitn 3017 Maricat Cat 94 3017 James Wearing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 5680 Dog Boy Foam on loan to Scott Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humungus2 Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Check out the National Title results, The fomies didn't do that well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Just to confuse issues bulldozer was not Foam samo then (at 14 foot regatta) but is now. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Dave, we can discuss who is who at Koonawarra this weekend. I will also have the results from our Nationals where all Maricats sailed off the one start line. There was a very interesting mix of results with sometimes the cats faster and at others the sloops. The foamies and classics were all mixed. But also John Taylor foam Bob Simpson classic Pointed Reply classic Nick Ward classic Rick Prowes classic Adrian Heap classic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Thanks for all the replies. Greatly appreciated. Donna from Tanilba Bay sent me the Nationals results (thanks), but not individual race times. Yes, it was an interesting mix of foam and classic. Which leads me to ask: "Is it necessary to have different yardsticks for the two types?" I expect there will be a range of opinions on this and I know it has been the subject of debate for some time, but our preferred position has always been to keep the yardstick the same until it is proven that there is a difference. To me, the Nationals results indicate that there is not much difference. I would ideally like to resolve this before the regatta this weekend if possible, but appreciate that this may not be possible. Regards, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Speaking from outside of the Maricats and in a rival 14ft class, i'd say yes it is necessary to have a different yardstick. They are noticably faster. Take this as an example,tactics and strategy proved the difference between Peter Brennan & Mick Colcliffe at the Nationals. In 'out n out' club racing with smaller fleets where starts don't necessarily win you a race, the speed difference is evident. However in the bigger fleets Mick dosn't start as well compared to peter and its much harder to 'dig' yourself out of a big fleet, hence making the start all that more important. Also not to mention that as well as the foam sandwich hulls, they have had a redesign of their sail measurement rule which has resulted in a more broad head of the mainsail. Which has proven in various other classes to be faster, not least Windrush. Anyway im sure this will just stoke the fire all that bit more. I'll see you all on Saturday and no doubt this will resurface, after all its a yardstick and yardsticks are subjective measures of boat/skipper performance. Cheers, Michael [This message has been edited by TornadoSport260 (edited 10 February 2009).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAX Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 my thought is that there should not be any difference in the yardstick between the old and newer boats, all the boats have to comply with the same class rules i.e. an old boat can still use one of the newer sails and the same minimum weight applies (which has never changed). fiddling with the yardsticks within the same class which is under the same rules is just not appropriate. You dont have different yardsticks for old and new paper tigers nor for old and new windrushes so far as I know so why do this with maricats ? as yet, the newer sails have not proven to be quicker although they do add more colour to the fleet and are my own preferred sail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Zax is right. I've been reading Frank Bethwaite's new book. He's clearly pushing his own designs (49,29ers) but his point is good: serious 470 sailers get two hulls a year and one per major regatta - this is simply because they go soft (or too soft for high level comp). So, to sail the handicap you require firstly a top level sailer, then that sailer requires a top level boat, in the 470's this would be a very new one, in our group, maybe one per year like I notice Mick does. Rarely, there are some that are "lasters", maybe Jason's No 16 is one of these. The rest of us are content to be in the traffic using whatever comes within our budget. KO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humungus2 Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Well the proof was in the sailing. The results are out. Mick flogged on yardstick by the Windies and the Paper Tigers. beat in the Nationals by a classic. It comes down to the nut on the end of the tiller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Mike, you forgot to mention that you were sailing on 92. Also look at Tony's result in race 4, he beat the Paper Tigers home. They race on 91 so how can u justify that 2 of the best paper tigers in aust. can be beaten on line honors by a Maricat Sloop? If tony was to be sailing on 94 he'd have flogged everyone even more than he did. Results over time have shown and will continue to show that 94 is not a current yardstick. The yardstick of 94 is nearly 25yrs old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Congratulations on the win, Michael. Actually, the PTs were sailing on 92, which is what they have had now for many years. It is interesting to note that Mick would've finished 5th overall instead of 7th if he had 94 instead of 92. But I do agree, that 92 is more appropriate, especially given Tony's performance. 92 for Maricats cat-rigged and sloop puts them racing on an even basis with the PTs, which generally seems pretty fair. Had it been lighter, the Maris would have had a much better showing I think (based on previous experience). I also agree with Zax that a class should have all its boats complying to the same set of rules, regardless of construction method. If the PTs had varying rules for this, I doubt they would be such a big class. But this is one for the Maricat sailors to sort out. It is not my place to interfere with how the class is managed. However, we would like our Yardsticks to be generally accepted acrosss the 14ft catamaran fraternity, so we appreciate people's feedback in this regard. Thanks to everyone who attended the event. Dave. Koonawarra Bay SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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