nacra 5.8 weights, values, speeds, stiffness

[HooD]

There seems to be so many random conversations happening on this topic in the most inappropriate sections of the forum. I think its time now the dust has settled to have a rational CIVIL discussion. so lets bring it to the right forum, with the right heading.

The story so far... we basically have three generations on nacra 5.8's which are pre 1200 1200-1550 and 1550+ the differences are obviously weight and stiffness.

lighter stiffer boats go faster, no secrets there, certainly holds true for all boats.

So how much difference is there? set of scales at the nationals should help clear that up!

There is the question of a minimum weight being set. This could be done by the association, but would anyone really want to do that? certainly pro's and cons there.

I have read plenty of posts on the value of a boat. the reality is a boat is worth as much as the market will bear. some people pay too much, others get a bargain. such is life.

please keep it on topic and play nice

[NacraPhelia628]

There is the question of a minimum weight being set. This could be done by the association, but would anyone really want to do that? certainly pro's and cons there.

I think a minimum class weight is the only way to go. After waying as many new "light" boats as we can, we should be able to come up with a reasonable average. The minimum class weight I think, if imposed, would be around the 160-165kg mark. This should also affect the minimum crew weight for older boats. If your boat weighs 180kg then your minimum crew weight can drop 15-20kg. But don't forget that the minimum boat weight would have to meet requirements. This would stop people (hyperthetically) getting a 150kg boat and then making up the rest of the weight with 'usable' crew weight.

[This message has been edited by NacraPhelia628 (edited 08 December 2006).]

[micky]

The crew weight on a 5.8 is a safety issue, and always has been. Any less than 140kgs makes it dangerous to sail.

[NacraPhelia628]

Good point. I'll retract my crew weight comment. I suppose that way the under 1200, 1200-1550 and 1550+ will still remain sub-classes.

[REV YUKKA II]

if it is a safty issue for crew weight how dose putting extra weight on the boat make it safe???. if it is a safty issue then if you have not got that crew weight then you shouldn't be allowed to compete. "if it is a safty issue" which i think it is not. you should not withdraw your comment nacraphillia it is spot on. i aggree with you hood we should put the boats over the scale at the nationals. that will clear up the weight debate. i believe that they make all the boats to a standard weight so this should clear it up. i also know that not having a min weight allows people to modify there boat to lose weight (say replace bulk heads with carbon ones). i have no problem in putting weight on my boat if it means for an equal playing field, i would much rather be beaten by a better sailer that a lighter boat any day.

[REV YUKKA II]

i think that we should put the 5.8's over the scales it would be good. dryzabone " boat + crew weight" carn't do that it makes for movable balest not fair. we have a min crew weight of 140kg for 5.8. there should also be min boat weight say 165kg. if you min crew weight is less than 140kg then you need to add that weight too 165kg boat to bring it up. what this means is if your crew weight was 135kg then your boat weight needs to be 170kg. so if you had an old boat that was 180kg then you would not have to add weight. as happened to redback in the last nationals. they had a boat that was 20kg heavier than all the other boats and then had to put 2kg on that as well to make up for crew weight 138kg, hence we have lost that boat and crew for this year. which is a shame but i can understand there feeling's and think that what happened to them last year was a joke.

[Bradk]

Hi guys

reading this debate about min boat weights and all the rest shows that there is a committed group of guys looking for a way to make the 5.8 fleet work fairly for all involved in racing them . As only just new to the 5.8 family i realize that i have much to learn about them . Min boat weights are a good idea but how do u police it in normal club meets ? Is there other ways for guys to get better performance out of these boats other then boat weight ? eg. different sails or daggers /rudders ? Having come from kart racing which is regulated similarly to the 5.8 with weight classes have seen many different ways that guys have been able to bend the rules to get the desired results .

it would be nice to be able to compete with other boats and sailers on ability with out having to worry about the guys with the biggest cheque book always winning .

[GRACELAND1216]

I have been sailing 5.8's for over 16 years and owned 3 boats in 3 different weight divisions #522, #1216 and #1591. I never weighed #522 or #1216 but #1591 weighed in at 165kg fully rigged but you could notice the weight differences when handling the boats on and off the trailer and lifting the boat to put the beach wheels underneath it.

Back in late 1990 when I bought #522 Nacra were just introducing the first of the 1200 series and there was the same problem as we have today of boats of different weights. Fast forward to 1995 when I bought #1216 I was back in the new weight division as the newer 1300 and 1400 series boats. Around 1997 - 1998 Nacra introduced the 1550+ series which was even lighter again creating 3 different weight divisions. I believe Nacra hasn't done the wrong thing by doing this because the first 5.8's to appear in Australia came from the States in 1983, 23 years ago and technology in resins, fibreglass, foam and gelcoats have changed dramatically in this time.

Having 3 recognised divisions within the 5.8 class is the best way to be fair to everyone who sails these great boats. ATM the N.S.W Super Series and State Titles do this to encourage people with older boat to compete at this level of sailing.

Only 6 weeks ago I had a race on a 800 series boat and was amazed at it performance even with a blown out jib and a green crew. I was keeping up with a 1550+ upwind and only loosing a bit off the breeze.

Another idea to make it fairer for owner of older boats sailing in large 5.8 fleets would be to use a yardstick for example.

1550+ 72

1200 - 1550 73.5

500 - 1200 75

There must be 100's of older 5.8's around this country doing nothing, it would be great to see some of these older boats again with a fair system in place for everyone.

Regards Graceland.

[Emmessee]

Is it not the manufacturer and owner of the Nacra rights the one who should be setting the minimum weight???

Of course this is done in conjunction with the association, but all class rules should go through Nacra itself before anything gets adopted. They have been in the game a long time and whatever they have to say on the topic should be listened to very carefully.

I am not a 5.8 owner at the moment. But I have owned three over many years and sailed them up until about 10 years ago. It is a boat close to my heart and I would love nothing more than to see it back in great numbers for years to come.

But any changes to the class rules should be done with the blessing of Rosco at Brisbane Catamaran Centre.

[NacraPhelia628]

Originally posted by Emmessee:

Is it not the manufacturer and owner of the Nacra rights the one who should be setting the minimum weight???

Of course this is done in conjunction with the association, but all class rules should go through Nacra itself before anything gets adopted. They have been in the game a long time and whatever they have to say on the topic should be listened to very carefully.

I am not a 5.8 owner at the moment. But I have owned three over many years and sailed them up until about 10 years ago. It is a boat close to my heart and I would love nothing more than to see it back in great numbers for years to come.

But any changes to the class rules should be done with the blessing of Rosco at Brisbane Catamaran Centre.

Thats exactly right Matt. I don't think anyone wants to make these rules without an agreement from the boys at B.C.C. They have done a great job for so long and I'm sure they will into the future. They are the grande-daddies of Nacra Australia and obviously no decision can bemade without them but having said that, I hope we can all talk seriously about it when the time comes.

[Drew]

I do not know weather weight is as big an issue as boat stiffness. All glass boats go soft over a period of time which lets them flex both diagonally and within each hull. This flexing causes 2 ploblems 1. The hulls absorbe energy from waves and 2. Lets the rig lay off in gusts reducing drive. This problem is significant in many other one design classes eg ns14 all boats are exactly the same weight but performance falls with age similar to the Nacra. You can feel the diference straight away if you go from an old boat to a new one.

[REV YUKKA II]

i have asked for this topic to be disscussed at the AGM at the nationals and added to the agenda. just a quick note on stiffness i reckon 628 is still as stiff today as the day she made it is heavy but it is rock solid, our other boat redback is not. the two sail quite differently but redback is faster as she is lighter. i think the change in vyc would be a good idea for maybe another trophie (ie handicap winner) but you could not do it for out right. i think that your figures as to what they could be would be right.

[Emmessee]

Why not have an overall winner then a winner for each weight division that the boat fits into, regardless of sail number as some boat may have drunk more beer than others and gained more weight.

My wife tells me that's the reason anyway.

[GRACELAND1216]

Hi Emmessee,

That is how the N.S.W Super Series is run at the moment and trophies at the end of the series for these older divisions. This has helped to rebuild the 5.8 class last year in N.S.W. Hopefully we will see a large 5.8 fleet at the remaining Super Series venues @ Mannering Park, Port Hunter and South West Rocks.

Only 12 years ago 80 5.8's turned up for the 1994 Nationals and 1995 Worlds @ Belmont N.S.W. We will never see numbers like this again because alot of the sailors have moved to different classes but those boats must be still out there.

[Village Idiot]

Originally posted by REV YUKKA II:

if it is a safty issue for crew weight how dose putting extra weight on the boat make it safe???. if it is a safty issue then if you have not got that crew weight then you shouldn't be allowed to compete. "if it is a safty issue" which i think it is not. you should not withdraw your comment nacraphillia it is spot on. i aggree with you hood we should put the boats over the scale at the nationals. that will clear up the weight debate. i believe that they make all the boats to a standard weight so this should clear it up. i also know that not having a min weight allows people to modify there boat to lose weight (say replace bulk heads with carbon ones). i have no problem in putting weight on my boat if it means for an equal playing field, i would much rather be beaten by a better sailer that a lighter boat any day.

the safety issue is that if you capsize and the weather is a bit nasty you won't get the thing up ,if you don't have 140kg onboard you wont be competing in any title events anyway.I've had trouble getting one up with 175kg on board ,in a decent wind and chop

replacing your bulkheads with carbon ones is going to save you about 3 kg and the effort involved would be redilulous even if you put smaller hardware and smaller ropes ect on you would only drop a couple of kg at the most.

I suggest there should be 2 divisions,both racing at the same time on the same coarse all boats against each other

1/open division boats later than 1550(example only)

2/classic division boats earlier than 1550

the scoring would be this, all boats compete together in an open division only boats older than say 1550 are elegible for the classic divison ,so in theory a well sailed classic div boat can win the open title and also the classic title,

the advantages of this is the guys that want the to fork out the big bucks can have their fun ,the guys who don't want to spend the big bucks can sail in the classic division ,and the guys who are sailing the old boats well have a chance at two titles the open and classic ,

this I feel is also applicable to all the nacra class ,a 16sq open and classic,5.0 and 14 sq the same.

this gives the guys who are not quite a serious or have an older boat to stay enthused

I know the flying 15's use this method and it's very succesful at keeping the older less competive boats intrested,and sometimes they even do really well in the open results as well..

[Darryl J Barrett]

Over the last 25 plus years we have made repairs to many many NACRA's from 5.2's, 18 squared. 5.8's etc, and a while back we re-glassed several bulkheads back into place in a 5.8. Some we only took out, cleaned up and reset them into the position that they had loosened from and some were in such a fractured state that we laid up new ones and glassed them into position. When we re-glassed ALL these bulkheads into position we used Kevlar tape instead of e glass. This was done solely for the strength of the material and not as some may think - to reduce weight - in fact after this remedial work was completed the weight of the hulls were fractionally heavier than they were before. I would challenge the conception that some one could replace bulkheads with the intention of reducing weight as the process of replacement always uses more resin, plus the residual resin that originally held the bulk heads which is impossible to remove fully, than it takes placing the bulkheads in the original manufacture process, and of course most of the weight in the lay-up of FRP comes from the resin not the fibre. Anyone who thinks differently is misinformed, inexperienced, or just mischievous.

[Darryl J Barrett]

Just another small point, when you consider that the collective weight of ALL the bulkheads in one hull of a 5.8 is only a little over 3kgs, just how much weight does anyone think they could "shave" off that and still have the hull hold together, no matter what material was used in their construction?

[tornado]

I am no longer a 5.8 sailor so you can take what I say with a gain of salt.

Originally posted by Village Idiot:

the safety issue is that if you capsize and the weather is a bit nasty you won't get the thing up ,if you don't have 140kg

Very important….. This is the main reason why classes set min crew weights.

Originally posted by Village Idiot:

I suggest there should be 2 divisions, both racing at the same time on the same course all boats against each other

1/open division boats later than 1550(example only)

2/classic division boats earlier than 1550

the scoring would be this, all boats compete together in an open division only boats older than say 1550 are eligible for the classic division ,so in theory a well sailed classic div boat can win the open title and also the classic title,

the advantages of this is the guys that want the to fork out the big bucks can have their fun ,the guys who don't want to spend the big bucks can sail in the classic division ,and the guys who are sailing the old boats well have a chance at two titles the open and classic

This is how it was done many years ago when the 1550s started to hit the water. The idea of a Yardstick for the classic division to compete against the open division is also worth exploring.

Any rule changes made to the 5.8 should be made with the association committee consulting with BCC and agreed upon by both parties. I personally believe now is the time to set a min weight for example 165 kg for open and say 180 kg for Classic. Otherwise in the future we may see another major weight reduction which will further split the class. It will also pull up all the sailors searching for ways to shave every gram off their boat, sacrificing the strength and reliability of their boats.

Furthermore, foils should also be weighed and a min rudder plus max centreboard weight set. This will eliminate the ability to produce lighter hulls and rudders whist increasing the weight of the centreboards to make min weight. There should also be a max amount of lead a boat can carry (like in the F18s), for example 5 kg. Once again you will not be able to make a super light platform whilst utilising the lead in a favourable position on the front beam.

Once weights are set, have weights recorded on a measurement certificate as well as marked on the boat / foils. The F18 class writes it on with a marking pen and places a clear “Class” sticker over it to protect it and prevent against tampering.

Another suggestion would be to set the min crew weight at 140 kg, however if you are below 150 kg you must carry half the difference in weight (between crew and 150 kg). For example if you are 144 kg, the difference is 6 kg, so you carry 3 kg off lead. Crew weight lead is fixed to the port side of the beam strap, whilst boat lead is carried on the starboard side. This will help set a more realistic competitive weight for crews and 140 kg crews will not have a clear advantage. This is the way it is done in the F18s and works quiet effectively……. You do not have to re-invent the wheel.

Note – F18s also have a smaller sail plan to allow crews lighter than 140 kg to compete, but I would not recommend it.

Hope this is constructive……..

[Village Idiot]

Originally posted by Darryl J Barrett:

Just another small point, when you consider that the collective weight of ALL the bulkheads in one hull of a 5.8 is only a little over 3kgs, just how much weight does anyone think they could "shave" off that and still have the hull hold together, no matter what material was used in their construction?

this is my point

[Drew]

I weighed 1450 yesterday and it is 186kg fully rigged.

[micky]

Hi everyone,

Rev has the right idea. Any changes to the class rules are to be decided on at the AGM which is always held at the Nationals. Thus another great reason for everyone to attend the nats each year and have your say. The process fyi, is for each sailor to put their ideas to their state association and any proposals or motions need to be lodged with the national body (myself)three months prior to the AGM. (this is according to the constitution) There are certainly some good points listed above and some with merit and potential.

Regards

[dryzabone 644]

Hi All,

To assist in all this debate, I might be able to provide some info regarding revised yardsticks for the older classes of 5.8s (I am scoring the NSW Super Series).

Over the remaining Super Series events at Mannering Park, Port Hunter & State Titles, and the Nationals we will have the opportunity to compare a larger cross section of 5.8s than at other times.

To do this effectively, we will need some more info other than just elapsed race times to effectively compare boats performances. We will also need to capture some length of course info, as well as type of course (laps/sausages). Easiest way to to this will be to provide GPS marks of the buoys.

It would also probably be useful to have information on individual boat weight, crew weight etc.

I can't say for sure I will be there to get this info, so I am asking that someone record the info & relay it back to me.

Mitch

[This message has been edited by dryzabone 644 (edited 10 December 2006).]

[dryzabone 644]

Using current NSW Super Series data (a very small sample section), pseudo VYC ratings for 5.8 Sail Nos are:

1200-1550 75.2

1550+ 73.1

Obviously more data is needed, ... if anyone would like to forward me their recent race results to add to the data pool that would be great.

Mitch

[REV YUKKA II]

back to the saftey issue, no one has answered my question yet, if a crew weight is 138kg how does it make it safe for them to sail by putting 2kg of weight on their boat??? (i can understand you need the weight to right the boat but unless you are going to take the 2kg off the boat and put it in your pocket when you capsize i can't see how it helps you, if any thing it is just making it harder). i am all for a min crew weight of 140kg (or higher say 170 would be good for us lol) so don't get me wrong on that, just someone explane how it works.

[REV YUKKA II]

i could also understand that it could be an overall power to weight ration. so in that case we need to have a min boat weight so you have a start figure to start adding weight too. say if min boat weight is 165kg the a crew of 135kg must have a boat of no less than 170kg.