berthos Posted April 15, 2002 Report Share Posted April 15, 2002 The development of an F18 class in Australia could only be good for sailing. Its not a class that I would personally support though. I'm not keen on lugging 180kg boats around the beach. My own support will be for the F16HP (high performance) class. These boats have a minimum weight of about 105kg, are as fast as, or faster than the F18 class and generally cheaper. The F16HP class includes the Taipan 4.9 with spinnaker. The 4.9 is already quicker than the Hobie Tiger upwind - put a Kite on it and wave as you pass them downwind too. If there were a F18 type boat that had a minimum weight of about 140 kgs I might be tempted. For more info on the F16HP see http://www.geocities.com/F16HPclass/ Rob Wilson Taipan 4.9 AUS 175 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 Quite a few years ago now, we sailed Cobra's and we were competative with the fleet, The only problem we had was our crew weight, We had a combined crew weight of 160-170 kilos which made it difficult for us in light to medium winds. To date I have not seen a 16 footer that suits that sort of weight, which is really 2 average sized adults, not a father/son type of crew. I agree that 140 kilos is much more like the weight I would like to see in the 18-20ft class, and it doesnt seem unreasonable when you have 18ft A-Class's being built to around 65kilos and then having lead added to bring them up to the min weight. Both the Stingray MK1/11 class, and the Qb2/3 have min weights of around 130kilos fully rigged, and they are very old class's now, and still not bad boats, just a little off the pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Its simple. If you want to sail in a competitive fleet of similar boats that are already popular throughout the world, with the opportunity to compete against the best sailors from all manufactured classes, get an F18. If you don't, then don't. I'm not going to get into an inter-class slanging match which seems to prevail amongst the sailors of some persuasions. If it is as easy as just whacking on a kite, how come all classes haven't succeeded with the idea?? Another thing: put the best 4.9 up against the best Tiger and see if your upwind performance claims still hold water. Originally posted by Berthos: The development of an F18 class in Australia could only be good for sailing. Its not a class that I would personally support though. I'm not keen on lugging 180kg boats around the beach. My own support will be for the F16HP (high performance) class. These boats have a minimum weight of about 105kg, are as fast as, or faster than the F18 class and generally cheaper. The F16HP class includes the Taipan 4.9 with spinnaker. The 4.9 is already quicker than the Hobie Tiger upwind - put a Kite on it and wave as you pass them downwind too. If there were a F18 type boat that had a minimum weight of about 140 kgs I might be tempted. For more info on the F16HP see http://www.geocities.com/F16HPclass/ Rob Wilson Taipan 4.9 AUS 175 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Nice double post mal... gg I have to agree, an international standard 18 footer is a great idea, and the new boats look really sexy, but why the hell are they so heavy?? the Nacra f18 at 397lb's is marginally lighter than a nacra 5.8. The taipan 5.7 is only 142kilo's, nearly 40 kilos lighter that a f18. An international two man 18 foot class is not a new idea. It was born at the same time the C-Class and A-Class was developed, yup you guessed it, the B-Class with the only restrictions being width length and sail area. It’s a pity the format never took off, as the boats built to the spec (stingrays and Qb2/3) were really good boats to sail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 Dear HooD, Sorry for the double reply. Hope Andrew can clean it up. Yes I understand the comment on the weight and sure there are lighter ways of doing it, BUT... and its a big BUT........ the F18 rule was conceived quite some time ago and took time to become established. The dimensions were set to allow for economical mass production. It is now established and cannot be changed. We cannot just change established rules as soon as new techniques/ideas become available. The whole idea of rules like the F18 is to maintain consistency over time to allow the class to develop and enable older boats to conform and be competitive. You do not even notice the weight on the water- in fact in some ways it helps. An F18 tacks like no other cat I've sailed in all conditions and it is very comfortable in gusty conditions. It drives well through slop. The boats perform well in light conditions which belies their weight. Beach rollers take care of the problem on Terra Firma. The boats do have to be built strongly. Don't believe anyone who tries to tell you that an assymetric spinnaker really produces no loads! Good comment on other attempts at an International rule and you are right- they were great boats but the concept did not take off. The F18 has taken off and there can be no argument. My advice is: get over the weight issue and get a Formula 18 catamaran. Make one if you wish, but come and join the growing band of keen two-hulled competitors who like to go fast upwind and down and race against the best from all classes. mal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 There is an inherant flaw in the class rules for the F-18's, That is there may be a minimum weight (180kilos) but I bet the rules dont mention where the weight is located. It will not be long before 100-120 kilo boats appear, with lead fitted near the center of the boat to make up the extra weight. These boats will be far superior to the older boats, in terms of speed and handling. It will be just like the A-Class is now, half the speed coming from skill and experience, the other from having the best boat in the fleet. I dont think that it is a bad thing, it allows for development and personal preference, but your kidding yourself if you think a 3 season old f-18 will keep up with the current models. (much like a 3 season old A-Clas could win a worlds-not) as for strenght being an issue, you only have to look at all the taipans and tornado's that carry kites now, and none of them come close to 180kilos. I think I will watch the f-18's develop, and see how they get on after a couple of years, in the mean time I think a kite for the 5.8 is on the cards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mal Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 Actually the rule does specify that corrective weights have to be carried on the right hand end of the front beam. In a similar event, a four year old Tiger won last year's tiger worlds. This shows that F18 boats last. The Tiger has won the last couple of F18 Worlds . This shows that one-designs can be competitive in F18. With regard to strength of other classes with kites, I suggest you do some research and investigate breakage history, even though other classes are relatively untried. You may not have seen busted poles and main beams in Tasmania but it has happened. Time will tell if there are long term effects. With the rule restraints on weight and materials, extreme designs will be expensive to build and unlikely to succeed. If a design dominates through exploiting a loophole in the rule, I daresay the intent of the rule will be enforced and such designs made illegal. I challenge you to build a mass produced boat for a competitive price that does all that an F18 does. You won't and I along with most sailors am not interested in one-offs. F18 is aN accessable class for the masses which offers big fleet NO-HANDICAP racing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 Originally posted by mal: I'm not going to get into an inter-class slanging match Well thats odd, because that seems to be the attitude your takeing. Tornado's have been sailing with kites in sydney for a great many years, and if you did your homework, then you would know that the reason the T's do not sail with kite's as an official class, it was because they were only marginally faster than a standard T, and did not warrant the extra expense. nothing to do with gear failure. Only yesterday I was reading about a F-18 breaking a spinnaker pole during a test sail for a magazine, so I guess that can happen to anyone. I have a heavy boat now, about 180kilos, agreed, on the water its great, but on the beach its a pain in the bottom. softsand, steep incline and rollers are not a good combo, and for me, I would not buy any boat heavier than what I have, and would like to get into something lighter. you have a good point with mass production boats, and it really is the main reason B-Class's never took off, In that day, there was no one builder, and no production line. so the average yuppy sailor that wanted a boat, had like $10,000 in his pocket had the choice of : build your own boat, and be on the water in 6-12 months time, or wander down to the local Nacra dealer and pick up a boat, with more like a 3 week wait. choice was easy really. each to his own, If your happy fine, but for this course there is no point, If I had a f18 I would be alone, with no one to sail aginst, what would be the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berthos Posted April 27, 2002 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 I agree with the heavy boat, soft sand, steep incline problem. It seems crazy to make the minimum weight of an 18 foot boat so high. It is easily possible to build lighter boats of a decent size. The Marstrom M20 (a 20 foot boat with fear of stating the bleeding obvious) weighs in at a mere 105kg! Admittedly it has no jib only main and spinnaker - but how much does a jib and a couple of sheets weigh? Perhaps those sailors like HooD looking for a fast boat able to carry 170 kg crew weight should perhaps be considering the F18HT class. This class has a minimum boat weight of 130kgs. Minimum Weights F16HP: 100kg. F18HT: 130kg F18: 180kg http://www.f18htclass.com/ I'm not knocking other classes or boats just suggesting that if we in Australia and the rest of the world are to embrace a new class and throw ourselves head long into supporting it perhaps the F18HT is a better choice for the big guys or F16HP for the smaller guys, husbands and wives, two women or those who wish to sail single handed. It seems to me that the reason that we are looking at formula racing is to reduce the number of classes to enable larger fleets to race on an equal footing. If we end up with too many formula's we almost end up in the same situation. Another problem with formula classes that I see is that you end up having the crews with the best designed boats winning the races. What will happen then is a development war between the manufacturers. Boats become outdated and you end up with the richest / best sponsored sailors winning the races. I wish to declare that I am not a seller, manufacturer and have no other vested interest (other than saving my back) in which particular class/ formula gets off the ground. Only thoughts, looking for comments. Berthos. Have a backpain free day! PS My declaration about not being a seller of boats wasn't a dig at you Mal. I owe you many thanks for the help you gave me when I started sailing my H16 and of course respect your veiws. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 WOW, those f-18HT's are very impresive, they look like A-Class's on steriods! I read through their forums last night, and they are having a debate about the weight of boats too: http://wfo3.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1019505581 My better half and myself recently purchased a Hobie Tiger and he loves the boat. This past weekend, he hurt his back while placing the Tiger on our trailer. He might require an operation. The boat is just too heavy! Berthos, I think your right about the boats and the competeing manufacturers, In the f-18HT there are already 2 different boats, with the JAV2 being much faster. If an F-18HT were to come to Australia, they would have to modify it, In the pictures they do have, they look quite shallow (made for sailing on lakes), and in our swells, they mostly likley would collect the beams on the tops of waves. In a series they had over there, I was reading about how they were beating the Nacra f-18 by over a leg, but could not compete on corrected time, as the F-18HT had a yardstick of 60ish. Does anybody know what the yaststick for an F-18 is? because I cant see it anywhere on the VYC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mal Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 Thought I had said my piece but couldn't let a couple of statements pass without comment. Don't believe everything you read in message boards from anonymous posters. I suspect that "Lady Tiger" mentioned below does not exist. I have been following that particular classes promotion program and it is riddled with bogus posts. Do you really believe that anyone would publicly ridicule their recent substantial investment? I guess they catch some gullible people. Gentlemen, check the recent F18 results to see that no one design in fact dominates. You can't in one breath critcise the multitude of classes that exist and then in the next one talk about introducing a whole new one despite it directly conflicting with one which is already well established. There is no VYC yardstick yet for an F18. A Hobie Tiger VYC is a little generous at 72. I would think that the F18 should be same as Tiger, and perhaps both a little less. Rob, are you still in Tully? Thanks for the vote of confidence. I freely admit that I am a Hobie Cat dealer and everyone knows that I work for the good of catamaran sailing not just my back pocket. I have promised to assist the other manufacturers and sailors who get into F18. I encourage everyone to get an F18 (no matter what design) so that we can finally quit the counter-productive inter-class bitchiness which seems to prevail in the cat scene. We the sailors, then will have a more united voice and a competition that all people can get interested in. Looking in the crystal ball, I see national F18 grand prix events with sponsors, media coverage and the whole circus. The way we were going with 10 of this class and 10 of that, cat sailing was just going to disappear up its own bung hole! Sure, we can always improve an existing concept, but as I again re-iterate "consistency is King". F18 ALREADY EXISTS. Finally, F18 is not for everyone and we'll always have our knockers but it is difficult to criticise something so successful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlar Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 Where Did you get the idea that the tipan 4.9 is faster than a tiger. I find that rather diffrent. Yes in the right conditions it could be this would have to go down to a test & take an average. I sail against a 4.9 on the weekends & he hasn't beat us yet. Thats in a whole season. this person is a smart sailor to. I have sailed the 4.9 its a nice boat but let not compare chalk with cheese. Kevlar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 Originally posted by Mal: but it is difficult to criticise something so successful! I find this really amusing are your trying to say we should all sail Hobie 16's ? as they are the most successful catamaran on the planet. I did not know your a Hobie dealer Mal, *looks at vested interest* yup ok. Mal I notice you not a registered member of this BBS.. should I not believe all that you say? I hate to think that there is that much politics that goes on behind sailing, that is a much bigger enemy of cat sailing than fragmented class's. personally I stopped Cat sailing and sailing in general 5 years ago, because of the in-fighting and general pig headedness of the people running the show. Now that I am back, the fleet is much smaller, but the people seem freindlier, which makes me a much happier camper. 72 VYC seem a bit much, the poor ol nacra 5.8 that is what 15 year old design? without a wing mast or cantered hulls is off 72. *blames VYC for not actually looking at a f-18* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berthos Posted April 28, 2002 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 Yes Mal I'm still enjoying the sunshine in Tully! I recently sold my H16 to the guy that you sent a new boom to in Cairns - I referred him to you when he lost his boom. He lost it on the first day he sailed his new boat poor guy. He got the one he lost back though!! There was a notice on a local notice board - now he's got a spare. Kevlar, I must admit I have not personally seen a T4.9 beat a Tiger, there aren't even any up this way ,but I was only refering to beating it to the windward mark. The Tigers cream him (the person who told me that he beats the Tigers at his club to windward regularly) on the downwind legs. Whether or not a 4.9 is faster than a Tiger or vice versa is not really relevant. I don't know why I bothered to mention it. The important factor is that we all (or at least more of us) sail similar boats and we sail boats that are a challenge and a buzz to sail so that the best sailor on the day wins and we can all enjoy doing it. Testament to the fact that the fastest is not necessarily going to be the best is of course the continued sucess of the Hobie 16 - an extremely fun boat to sail. The only reasons I sold mine was the struggle my wife and I had to push it up the beach across the soft sand and the fact that I wanted a boat I could safely sail solo on those occaisions where I couldn't find a crew. It just happens that the enjoyment of a day's sailing can be dampened by having to severely struggle with a heavy boat to get it off the beach. This is not a problem at races as there is always a helping hand but if I want to go for a sail on a non race day it is a major consideration. I have a back that needs to be looked after and a petite wife. So for me, and alot of other people I suspect, the choice of boat is one that is a buzz to sail but doesn't weigh 180+ kgs. On a related topic: I'm not even convinced that the reduction in the number of people sailing is due to the number of classes. I feel it is probably due more to the fact that their are so many different choices for leisure activities these days. Another factor is that the population generally is getting more and more sedentary and lazy - Australia now has the second fattest population in the world after the UK, I believe. Given the choice between two leisure activities: one that requires putting on a pair of shorts and running shoes and one that requires 30mins of rigging and another 45mins of washing down and derigging; most people are going to choose the former unless they have a great love of sailing. Whenever I take someone for a sail one of the first questions is always "how long does it take to rig the boat?" I always lie and say "Oh about 15 mins." and I can still sense them going hmmmmm... to themselves. This will probably be my last post on this forum as it should probably be left to those who support the class. It seems that there's only about four of us reading it anyway. Happy Sailing!! whatever you choose!! Berthos (aka Rob Wilson) Taipan 4.9 AUS175 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berthos Posted April 28, 2002 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 One last thing! Mal and any other sailors out there. Bring your boats up to the Mission Beach Sailing Club for our annual regatta including the race around Dunk Island. (19th and 20th Oct.) We're looking at 30 plus cats this year including Nacra 5.8's usually 4 or 5 Taipan 5.7's two or three this year including on from Brisbane, 5 or 6 Taipan 4.9s including one from Brisbane (this may increase to three from Brisbane) plus plenty of others A-class, all flavours of Nacras, Cobras but unfortunately very few Hobies!! There's usually a couple of 49ers that race with the cats too. There is a large contingent of monohulls too making it up to about 70 boats. It's a brilliant social weekend in a fantastic location. Hope to see you here. I'll race you to the windward mark and share a drink with you afterwards!! Berthos (aka Rob Wilson) Taipan 4.9 AUS175 Commodore Mission Beach Sailing Club. email [emai]berthos@mac.com if you need details of accomodation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 I am a registered member (see original reply), just forgot to enter pass word a couple of times. Back to you three, Over and out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolj Posted April 29, 2002 Report Share Posted April 29, 2002 Originally posted by Hood I have to agree, an international standard 18 footer is a great idea, and the new boats look really sexy, but why the hell are they so heavy?? the Nacra f18 at 397lb's is marginally lighter than a nacra 5.8. The taipan 5.7 is only 142kilo's, nearly 40 kilos lighter that a f18. What I was trying to say is that the manufacturers claim the 5.8 to be 160kg fully rigged, making it substantially lighter than an f18. Also the 5.7 is supposed to weigh in at 135 kg. [This message has been edited by coolj (edited 04-30-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest F16HPclass (Wouter Hijink Posted May 7, 2002 Report Share Posted May 7, 2002 I wish to say the following two things : -1- Formula 18 is THE international class after the Tornado at this moment. -2- Formula 16 HP is not slower nor faster than the F18's; the class is designed to be equally as fast. I enjoy seeing Berthos enthousiasme in the Taipan 4.9+spi and F16HP classes but I need to point up that any difference witnessed is probably the result of skipper ability than of the boats. Under both ISAF and Texel handicap systems the Taipan 4.9+spi and F16's are rated equal to the F18's. In the few comparisons that we've had we found that this equality is probably right. And that is good for we intended the F16HP class to be linked to the F18 class. We didn't limit the jib size and spi for nothing. The design could well have supported larger jibs and spi than we have now and be some 2 % faster. But what is the use of that. Now the design can race heads-up with the F18's The F16's are intended as an lightweight alternative to the F18 while still being able to race them. The class goal group are racers that want to race both with crew and solo. And to give the lighter teams (below 150 kg's) a design they feel comfortable with. These crews (in the EU) now feel that they are a bit underweight and not competitive on the F18's. The F16HP class group does fully support F18 racing and will strive to cooperate with them. For we feel that formula racing is the best compromise between development and the attractions of one-design racing. Formula 16 is intended as the extra shell around the F18 concept that will satisfy the sailors that aren't really satified by the pure F18 concept. The F16 would also be a very good class to prepare teenagers and young adults who aren't 80 kg's a piece yet for the F18's and Tornado's. But mind you all, F16HP is certainly not a kids class or a slow boat because of it's 16 foot length. The current UK UKcra champ are John and Sue on a Stealth (F16) they beat quite a few (when not all F18's) in the races to become champ. Another guy here in the Netherlands beat 37 F18's out of 57 at a big regatta on his Taipan 4.9 with F16 spi. The class is right up there with the F18's. That is unless your are 170 kg's than the F18 is your boat ! I wish the F18 class alot of succes around the world and hope to see the class expand to Australia and the USA. Wouter Hijink (chairman F16HP class) Taipan #243 modified to F16. ex. Hobie Tiger (nice boat, but I wanted to sail solo too) And some old Prindles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catsailor.net Posted May 7, 2002 Report Share Posted May 7, 2002 Wouter, I was wondering if we would see you join this forum. Welcome - Love you or hate you, you certainly bring your own views to the table. For people who have not been reading forums on catsailing this guy out posts anyone. Bring your friends and foes here as well. [This message has been edited by catsailor.net (edited 07 May 2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 Formula 16, Formula 18 - don't be suprised to see more discussion about Formula 19. 5.8 Nacras with modified rigs and 5.7 Taipans with weight added. There are plenty of owners our there who are not going to give there beautiful boats away to get into a slower less responsive boat at 23K or is it 25K. Since the Tiger has arrived it has usually been the smallest fleet represented at any regatta, then they disappear and sail Hobie 16s for 6 mths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 Formula 19 sounds like an enviromentaly freindly way of recycling all these 19ft boats, interesting.. Has anyone started development of the Formula 14? there are still a heap of 14foot sailors out there, it would be cool if they had a common class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walker Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 We might call them 19 cubed. We will go and race the Tornados and the F18's can go and play with the 16 foot boats where there yardstick suggests they should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 Originally posted by walker: play with the 16 foot boats Thats a cute picture isnt it.. well for the 16footers anyway I'm sure Andrew and Mal are flat out writing small essays why this wont work blah blah blah... should see em soon fellas?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berthos Posted May 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 Wouter!!, Good to hear from you, on this forum. Keep 'em coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted May 9, 2002 Report Share Posted May 9, 2002 "I'm sure Andrew and Mal are flat out writing small essays why this wont work blah blah blah... should see em soon fellas??" Hood, other than to say that I will let the boats speak for themselves, I will treat that comment with the contempt it deserves! (Can't get the hang of these UBB thingys yet!) [This message has been edited by mal gray (edited 09 May 2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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