QB2 Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 I am about to resume cat sailing after a lengthy absence but find there's a hefty list of essential equipment needed: trapeze harness, lifejacket, wetsuit,gloves/booties, shackles,mainsheet & downhaul blocks/swivelcleats/ropes/shockcord/ sailbox,trailer tiedowns-occhy straps & beach wheels. I found my long lost shackle key, so I am off to a good start. Do you have a preferred supplier either Online,in Qld or interstate you get good service from? I was going to say 'preferably cheap too' but cheap and sailing don't go together right? QB2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 I use the Brisbane Cat Centre and have found them terrific, plenty of advise and a huge range of gear. Dunno if they are cheap or not but what I do know is that they have really looked after me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelc_qld Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 try the brissie boat show on at the end of the month. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cat scratch fever Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Ah, good question - not being in a club i shop around myself, though I would say joining a club is a good start. I have bought from Ebay - waterproof bags, SuperCheap Auto - submersible trailer lights, Went to a local sailmaker, to repair my sails - who was unbelieveably helpful and gave me free batons he found lying around etc etc. Try the trading post I guess the answer is how much do you want to shop around, how handy are you to adapt and repair spares, build your sailbox etc etc. I'm sure this site will give you all the help and advic. Enjoy Cat ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Palmer Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Obviously you're alrwady using the net so why not keep it up. Most stuff can be sourced online for comparisons. All my stuff either comes straight up from Mal at sunstate hobie (yes he'll supply any cat sailor regardless of religion!) otherwise I get gear from Andrew at catsailor.net, yep right here. It's always good to support the people who support your sailing events!!! Cheers Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 trapeze harness - Magic Marine lifejacket - Magic Marine or any marine store, wake boarding or kite sufing stores wetsuit,gloves/booties - Magic Marine, Ronstan, or any marine store, wake boarding or kite sufing stores shackles,mainsheet & downhaul blocks/swivelcleats/ropes/shockcord - Whitworths, ronstan sailbox - local Hobie dealer or Brisbane catamarans trailer tiedowns-occhy straps - Supercheap Auto, Auto One ect (Auto accesories store) beach wheels. - Hobie dealer or Brisbane cat centre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted August 17, 2005 Report Share Posted August 17, 2005 If your going back into racing then you had better make sure your new trapeze harness has a quick release hook, RSS rule 40.2 will come into effect Jan 1st 06, non compliance will equal non entry. considering the rule is coming so fast, i havnt seen one in a boat shop yet!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRACELAND1216 Posted August 17, 2005 Report Share Posted August 17, 2005 Hi HooD, Have you any photos of this new trapeze hook setup? or more details on this new rule RSS 40.2? Regards GRACELAND1216. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted August 17, 2005 Report Share Posted August 17, 2005 http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d27000/e25237.asp Gill, magic marine and ROH have products available. they can be retro fitted to existing harness's. If your going to buy a new harness why not get one that complies now and save yourself some money in coming months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad7970 Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 i know someone who has some good quality second hand gear that he is trying to get rid of. i just bought some beach rollers from him and he has heaps of stuff. email me if you are interested and i will point you in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 Originally posted by HooD: If your going back into racing then you had better make sure your new trapeze harness has a quick release hook, RSS rule 40.2 will come into effect Jan 1st 06, non compliance will equal non entry. considering the rule is coming so fast, i havnt seen one in a boat shop yet!!! what a load of shit!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QB2 Posted August 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 I emailed you my details Brad. Forecast says 10 to 15 knots for SEQ tomorrow building to 10 to 20 NE in the afternoon and 24-25C. Nice! Looks like its going to be great out on Lake Cootharaba. I hope to get the hulls wet after checking out the 'For Sales' for a lifejacket etc. Thanks for all your shopping advice guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted August 19, 2005 Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 VI which part dont you agree with??? The value of a quick release hook? the rule coming? or no compliance equaling a DNS? Well the value, well im not sure about that either, its probably an extra oportunity to save yourself, but still no guarantee at all. The rule is coming, there is no doubt but there are people trying to delay its introduction. Will it be enforced? well if your club if affiliated with yachting australia then thier hands will be tied. 90%+ of australian clubs would be in this catagory (in my state only 2 clubs are not affilliated) The bethwaite system also complys because it has no hook. http://www.bethwaite.com/4404,01,1-0-trapeze-harness.html I found this article very imformative, may even swing me towards the system for myself. Five years ago, I flew into Helsinki, Finland for a meeting which coincided with the running of the 49er European Championship. On my arrival at the airport, I was met by an utterly distraught young woman named Lotta. We drove straight to the hospital to find my friend, Magnus, on oxygen. Miraculously, he was OK given the ordeal he had just been through. Lotta and Magnus had been sailing my boat in the European’s; the wind was very fluky but they were having fun. One particular gust seemed to disappear but then hit them unexpectedly. After almost rolling to windward and re-gaining their footing, they capsized to leeward. Lotta was thrown beyond the jib and Magnus found himself lying across the shrouds. Apparently they laughed a bit about it as the boat did what most boats do when there is a large weight on the shrouds and started to “turn turtle”. This was nothing out of the ordinary but what neither of them knew was that Magnus’s hook was around the shrouds and as the boat rolled very slowly, the hook slid down the wire until it was too late. Magnus could not get un-hooked and was pulled under the water. Lotta struggled unsuccessfully to keep his head above water and to untangle the hook. Gradually Magnus began to close down. If not for the quick thinking of some Spanish sailors who literally reefed him out followed by some diligent resuscitation work by Lotta and the Spanish, who were able to kick start him again, this tale would have had a tragic ending. Magnus survived, for all intents and purposes, unscathed by his ordeal and is still actively involved in the sport of sailing both on 49ers and America’s Cup yachts. We have all had near escapes and sailing is probably one of the safer sports, but it was the visible impact of that event on Lotta that kick started me into trying to “build a better mouse trap.” Less than a week later I was in Canada with Ian Bruce, one of the more progressive minds of our sport and between us we brainstormed a whole series of options. Within two months I had discarded all but 5 of those ideas and had gone about building working prototypes of the better ones. Within six months I had narrowed it down to one unit that was based on a pull pin, quick release system where, if you got into trouble, you reached down, yanked a string and the whole hook simply came away from the harness. That unit was used for about a year and worked faultlessly both in simulated operation and also in race practice. It was used in the very first 29er Worlds in Italy, and also in the demanding arena of Eighteens and 49ers. I felt that it fulfilled all the requirements and was a product that could be taken further. By incorporating another couple of ideas to get in and out of the harness and modifying it so that, if you were in trouble, you hit one of three purpose-made alloy extrusions in a particular manner, not only would the hook come off, the whole buckle would come apart and you would simply step out of the entire belt. Dies where ordered and a provisional patent process started. Then, fortuitously, I loaned the harness to a friend. It came back a week later with the entire mechanism taped up to render it completely inoperative! In much the same way some sailors tape up their hobbles on a Soling, even though it is a patently stupid thing to do, this sailor had rendered the whole purpose of the buckle completely pointless. It was back to the drawing board! Pinning down the evolution of the keyball system is more difficult but it developed quite quickly feeding off the design of the previous “pull pin system”, although it is obviously fundamentally different. The first buckles were made from a rough mould in chop strand matt and the ball was simply on a loose bit of line. The refinements from there to the present design have come about in real-life sailing conditions. I have learned not to do the testing myself as I tend to accommodate the imperfections, especially in my own designs! Other sailors can be far more critical of something that is “not quite right”. Certainly Tai Elliott has been, by far, the most long-suffering test pilot. The system has now been in operation for well over two years. Although it has evolved and there have been refinements, the purity of the original concept is such that the original carbon buckle, which was made in South Africa 18 months ago, is still being used. The defining point was in May 2001 when I took one of the original carbon buckles around the world, showing the idea to people in Italy, Switzerland, Germany, France and ending up in Canada with Ian. The system has now been in the patent process for over 2 years. Unfortunately we are seeing a rash of accidents in which a conventional harness is in some way implicated. In Australia it was a sailor who drowned in Adelaide. Last year we had three serious accidents, unfortunately one of which ended in a fatality when the trapeze hook snagged and the sailor did not survive. This year we have had the Tornado sailor in Spain and the Topaz sailor in Hong Kong - all very tragic accidents where trapeze hooks have done exactly what they are designed to do, hook on and hang on. It is impossible for anyone to suggest that any system is fool proof but it is fair to say that if you dramatically reduce the likelihood and the opportunity of becoming snared or entangled, then the risk is reduced. The keyball system attempts to do this. While the hook is the obvious culprit, large buckles and other protrusions on the harness pose almost the same threat. Other than the quick-release sash buckle on the chest to fasten the harness, there are no buckles on the sides or on the legs to snag or foul lines in tacks or while swimming around in the water. The buckle itself replaces the traditional hook with a smooth mound that is designed to be hard to snag with anything other than the keyball. If a rope happens to get in there, all the wedges face outwards so there is nothing stopping the rope or anything other than the specific Keyball from disengaging. Sailing is, on the whole, a healthy and relatively safe sport and the old adage that “the worst that can happen to you is you get wet” is not far from the truth. Skiff sailors have been sailing some of the most potentially dangerous boats for years and, yes, there have been ensnarements and plenty of close calls. But skiff sailors have routinely taken considerable care when dressing for a race and in the preparation of their boats. You never see a skiff sailor with buckles hanging off trapeze belts, as the belt of choice is affectionately called a “tailor made nappy” and is made to fit the individual and has no adjustments. They wear Lycra tops over everything including the harness, and never wear boots with laces. Also ropes are always as short as practical and, in most cases, have shock cord or bungee returns pulling them out of the way or keeping them tight and neat. It is hoped that the Keyball system will also become another facet of the way we all prepare ourselves to enjoy our sport as safely as possible and to minimize the risk of tragic accidents. The Bethwaite Trapeze Harness is now in production and will be represented around the world by the following licensees: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 Myself personally ,and this is my opinion only , am against even life jackets ,I've been sailing every thing from mirrors to moth skiffs to 505's to offshore keel boats trailable and offshore multihulls ,sail boards ,and high performance off the beach cats,for the last 25 years,you name it I've probly been on it at some stage,, Sure on offshore racing boats you need harnesses and personal epirbs and a life jacket,strobe and torch and the rest of the gear,cos if your going over the side it could be getting dark ,or it could be very rough and it could be some time till you crew can come back and pick you up. On a dingy most time the boats going to go over 9 times out of 10 ,the other time you come off chances are it's going to be 100 or more meters down the track,have you ever tried swimming after a capsized catamaran in 20 knots of wind with a life jacket .trap harness a wetsuit boots ,gloves and all the crap on with a 1.5 m chop running?I have and it near killed me and i'm a strong swimmer the speed I was swimming the boat was drifting nearly as fast and I'f my crew didn't jump in the water and slow the drift down I'd still be out there,, My point life jactets are not designed to be swam if and if I didn't have the thing on I probly would have caught the boat alot easier.also If your in a big stack (and trust me I've been in heaps )If you capsize to windward or end up somehow with the boat landing on top of you ,how are you going to duck dive down to clear yourself if your too boyant?? even worst cast if your knocked out ,chances are the vest we wear racing arn't going to float you face up anyway.unless you got the ones with the big floatation around the back of the neck,,who's got one of those???? i'm sorry but I don't see the sport of sailing all that dangerous most events are called off if it's over 25k and up against a sport like kite surfing where dozon's of people are killed each year,I think were fairly safe ,you probly got as much chance getting struck by lightning of mauled by a shark ,whilst sailing..and you don't need lightning rods or shark repellent ....YET? soon you'll have to sit on the beach out of harms way with a radio control in your hand watching your boat go round the course??/ I believe that you should have a choise ,if you wan't a u=beut fag dangle quick release trap harness hook well thats up to the individual.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QB2 Posted August 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 There are valid points for both sides of the argument. I agree about trying to swim after a cat in a harness/jacket etc. Tossed off my last mari in a big blow I was completely stuffed by the time I grabbed a bow. On the other hand I was glad for every bit of buoyancy when I snapped a trapeze and, despite swimming like crazy, watched the cat sail off into the distance on lake keepit when it was 'bloody' cold and I wasn't too sure I'd make it to shore. The big question is personal liability and insurance industry demands on sailing clubs and event organisors. If insurance rates keep rising we all pay whether through car & trailer registrations etc. We seem to be following the US example and in some states there sailors face a mass of bureacracy just to get onto the water. I do occasional work on regulatory issues and have heard a few suggestions over the years that any craft that ventures offshore, not just powerboats and yachts, should carry Lifejackets/flares/EPIRB/GPS/27mhz radio/mobile fone/water supplies/signalling mirror/v sheet/paddle/liferaft and a medical kit. One comment I got was "If it saves one life it would be worth it." The only fear was a voter backlash against whomever introduced such a move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 If you capsize to windward or end up somehow with the boat landing on top of you ,how are you going to duck dive down to clear yourself if your too boyant?? Big reason why no skiff sailors wear them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Originally posted by tornado: If you capsize to windward or end up somehow with the boat landing on top of you ,how are you going to duck dive down to clear yourself if your too boyant?? Big reason why no skiff sailors wear them. yes I am an ex-skiff sailor and competive wave sailor (sailboards )this is why I'm against them........ and anyone who's tried to swim flat out it one will know also where I'm coming from.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 I too come from a windsurfing background, and I agree with the hinderence lifejackets are. All the skiff sailors here wear lifejackets, how do they get away without them?? must be against some rule someplace. My lifejacket is the smallest you can get, there is no way it would actually save me, its just to conform to the rules. right now im considering purchasing an inflatable one to reduce it further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Originally posted by HooD: I too come from a windsurfing background, and I agree with the hinderence lifejackets are. All the skiff sailors here wear lifejackets, how do they get away without them?? must be against some rule someplace. My lifejacket is the smallest you can get, there is no way it would actually save me, its just to conform to the rules. right now im considering purchasing an inflatable one to reduce it further. Hood!! I only wear a pfd whilst racing ,and only because I have to ,not by choise. I have been thinking about an inflatable one too ,maybe some one should design a infating pfd built into a trap harness or wetsuit or something?? I don't know about the last olympics but I remember seeing some footage some years back and none of the competitors had pfd's on?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 P.F.D's are there to save lives. Any consideration regarding whether or not you can "swim" in them to catch up to your boat when it is probably travelling faster than you could swim anyway, is completely irrelevant. Twice now I have been witness to people who have become separated from their cats on lake waters that were at approx' 7 to 9 degrees Celsius, while they were not wearing life jackets. In both instances they lost their lives through drowning. With the combination of the cold water, the lower buoyancy of the fresh water (over salt water) and the fact that they exhausted themselves very rapidly without the services of a life jacket, they "went under" for the last time very quickly. On both those occasions there was other people put into the same identical situations and were "rescued" without injury, the only difference was that the ones rescued, ALIVE, were wearing life jackets. Any talk of life jackets not being necessary is completely “gung ho” and downright dangerously stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d27000/e25237.asp I found these which are very close to what i would like, trap harness with an inflatable pfd built in. I pretty much only ever go sailing for racing, so im always wearing a pfd. Im still trying to work out how the skiff boys are getting away without them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Originally posted by Darryl J Barrett: P.F.D's are there to save lives. Any consideration regarding whether or not you can "swim" in them to catch up to your boat when it is probably travelling faster than you could swim anyway, is completely irrelevant. Twice now I have been witness to people who have become separated from their cats on lake waters that were at approx' 7 to 9 degrees Celsius, while they were not wearing life jackets. In both instances they lost their lives through drowning. With the combination of the cold water, the lower buoyancy of the fresh water (over salt water) and the fact that they exhausted themselves very rapidly without the services of a life jacket, they "went under" for the last time very quickly. On both those occasions there was other people put into the same identical situations and were "rescued" without injury, the only difference was that the ones rescued, ALIVE, were wearing life jackets. Any talk of life jackets not being necessary is completely “gung ho” and downright dangerously stupid. Only a fool would sail a boat of this type in waters that are 7 to 9 degrees! I've just come back from Lake Eucumbeen,snowy mountains up behind Canberra (where my parents live and the water temp was between 4 and 7 degrees,with temps like this you got minutes to live ,there's no frigin way known to man I'd been sailing on a catamaran which could capsize in those conditions ,even with a dry suit!!! You call me gun ho ,well yes I take calculated risks (we all do everyday ,crossing the road is a risk,driving a car is a risk......)however I don't believe I put myself in any real great risk especially sailing in extreme cold or extremly windy conditions.I believe where I sail I have more chance of surviving and swimming with out a straight jacket on.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Originally posted by HooD: http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d27000/e25237.asp I found these which are very close to what i would like, trap harness with an inflatable pfd built in. I pretty much only ever go sailing for racing, so im always wearing a pfd. Im still trying to work out how the skiff boys are getting away without them! yeh what you got there hood are inflating deck harness for clipping yourself onto the foredeck of a yacht but yeh the same comcept in a trap harness would be sweet ,I'f you do get in strif youy can inflate that bad boy and hope for help!!! I'm looking at hand held VHF radio's and personal eperb (the one thats about the size of a mobile phone..as I alot on long distance and offshore sailing!!the radios are waterproof to a depth of 1-2 meters for like 5 mins......down the track I can see this sort of safety gear come in on all boats!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 who opened the can of worms?????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Originally posted by Darryl J Barrett: P.F.D's are there to save lives. Any consideration regarding whether or not you can "swim" in them to catch up to your boat when it is probably travelling faster than you could swim anyway, is completely irrelevant. Twice now I have been witness to people who have become separated from their cats on lake waters that were at approx' 7 to 9 degrees Celsius, while they were not wearing life jackets. In both instances they lost their lives through drowning. With the combination of the cold water, the lower buoyancy of the fresh water (over salt water) and the fact that they exhausted themselves very rapidly without the services of a life jacket, they "went under" for the last time very quickly. On both those occasions there was other people put into the same identical situations and were "rescued" without injury, the only difference was that the ones rescued, ALIVE, were wearing life jackets. Any talk of life jackets not being necessary is completely “gung ho” and downright dangerously stupid. As you can see, PFDs save lives in these cases. As mentioned above, if somebody is traped under a sail or boat, a PFD may cost lives. I personaly believe that the likelyhood of being trapped under a sail, whislt still a dander, is less than possibility of drowning due to tireing whilst seperated from a boat. Therefore I would prefer to wear a PFD which will also be able to be quickley released if needed. As far as smimming after a boat if seperated, this is a no brainer. If you are seperated, the boat will blow away quicker than you could swim even without a PFD. Alsl a good habbit to get into is to never let go of the boat. If you go over, keep a hand on the mainsheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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