berny Posted April 4, 2004 Report Share Posted April 4, 2004 F20, F18, F16 and now F14. It looks like we might see F14's racing in Oz next year. To begin with, Formula 14 will accommodate many of the existing 14ftrs, but most likely with kites fitted. This exciting new formula will have rules to accommodate probably two divisions. One will be for retro fitted existing 14 ft cats, Hobies, Maricats and Windrushes etc., and the other being the lighter, higher performance F14's. All boats will be allowed a maximum of 300sq ft of sail. New interest in 14ft cats will be generated by allowing modifications to the existing boats and some development in new boats similar to 'A' class. Both classes will start together, the retro's racing for both the modified and outright F14 class placings, where as the F14's weighing less than probably 80kg's will race only for outright placings. It should be a lot of fun. Bern Leslie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REV YUKKA II Posted April 5, 2004 Report Share Posted April 5, 2004 sounds like a lot of work on a single hander boat to use kite's. won't be much time to be having a beer whilst running square on the down hill leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted April 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 It isn't easy REV but there are 14ft single handers in the US already using kites and they seem to be working ok. To begin with I'm going with a furler but I'm hoping I can develop a simple system using a snuffer to cut down on drag. At the risk of stating the obvious, I want to keep the excess upwing bagage to bear a minimum. Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REV YUKKA II Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 what sort of boat are you going to use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shy thunder Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Maybe I can fit hydrofoils to the front of my maricat to stop the nosediving too... now lets see 300 sq feet less my mainsail..... wow that is a lot of spinaker!!! sounds mad even for my 95kgs hangin off the rear beam. Maybe a rearward running plank like the vjs & skates and a running backstay with a combined dolphin striker and centreboard all in one too for the mast compression. ha ha ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 You think that's mad, I talked to a bloke today who sails a skiff moth with an MG rig and a Cherub spin. I looked at the Cherub spin for my cat but decided it was too big. Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 And remember, the kite will prodice lift off the breeze, so for the likes of us Maricat sailors, it will only help in a strong breeze downhill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rude Shock Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 If you think that a spinaker lifts the nose on a cat you are in for a rude shock. Talk to any f18 sailors and they will confirm this. Because cats don't plane. Still sounds like a hell ride!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 A kite on a cat lifts the bow like you wouldn't believe. I am much happier to go downhill in 30kts now with a kite than without. The boat settles down and there is a lot less pressure on the mainsail, which in turn means there is less pressure from the rig on the bows. I remember at Sail Melbourne this year we were waiting for the 470's to finish a race, the breeze was very light and fluctuating a lot, then after about 30 mins a new line of sea breeze came through, it quickly built from 10kts to 25kts with gusts up to 30. We went from waiting for breeze to having too much to start, they called the race off and sent us in. Being the responsible person I am (sailing a borrowed boat...) we set the kite for the run home, awesome ride and much easier to control. If we had been sailing an old rig boat it would have been a much harder ride home. Also, Cats do plane... just need to get the right hull shape and rig. The Taipan will plane as will a Capricorn. [This message has been edited by macca (edited 04 May 2004).] [This message has been edited by macca (edited 04 May 2004).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 I'm fitting a headsail/kite borrowed from Phill Brander's F16 so I hope Macca's right and rude's wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 Every time I've charged downwind with kite in 30 kts, I've ended up going too fast for the conditions and speared into a wave in front and gone in the p*ss. To slow down, you end up going so deep that you are almost sailing "by the lee" which doesn't lift the bow at all. The rogue gust will still get ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Mal, oversheet the kite as it gets heavier, this will kill the power but keep the lift. Give it a try, you will like the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Macca, your a dead set champion of a bloke and a top tiger. A kite will lift the bow of any boat if you are sailing it right. When I sailed 18 footers, we could still nose dive them if we were not careful, so if in doubt and you get scared, sheet the crap out of it and do not drive the boat away as it will get seriously ugly. Have fun Bern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 We ran kites, cat rigged, on our 4.4 Alpha Omega's in the early 80's. The down wind performance was exceptional and the controlability of the ride of the hulls through the water was greatly improved over the same ride/conditions without the kite. The cut of the kite was very flat and worked through winds ranging up to 16 to 20 knots, after that the sea's played havoc with the rate at which we could adjust the set of the kite, so that it was better (more prudent) to sail in those higher ranges without setting the kite. It was never a problem sailing it one up on trapeze. I have seen what Mal says about the Tiger's when running the kites, and the excentrisities that occur on the Tigers (and most F18's) are more pertinant to the Tiger's as a part of their overall configuration, and are different on other class's of cats with kites. The F16's run kites one up and behave quite differently to the F18's under spinnaker. The mosquitoes seem to handle a spinnaker as if they were always meant to have one! Times and attitudes change, when we sailed with spinnakers on the 4.4 Alpha's and the 5.5 Alpha's (wich came as standard with spinnaker), the biggest problem we had then was that very few sailors would even entertain the idea of a spinnaker on a catamaran, not whether or not it worked? Now we are debating HOW and why they work? If the sail plan is balanced with the overal design, weight, beam, etc, etc, EVERYTHING works, and works well. It's like they say, we know what the horse will do, it's the jockey we are not sure about! Darryl J Barrett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 When you say that you set the kite in thirty knots down wind Mal, do you really mean an actual 30 knots? it has been my experience that not to much sailing is actually ever done in a true 30 knots. The only place that it happens regularly is in the bar after a race when the wind came up over 20 true knots and most sailors were sailing for survival (let alone racing) but back at the bar, "It had to be at least 30 knots out there today, with gusts over 35!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted May 6, 2004 Report Share Posted May 6, 2004 Yes 30 kts! And I can tell you that it is not racing.....its just trying to stay upright. Ask anyone who did the #2 Lake Garda Tiger Worlds long race. With 30% of the 100 boat fleet upside-down at any time I promise you it was windy! We started in about 12 kts, but by the time we got to the funnel it was honkin. The day I see someone smoking along under full control with spi up in 30kts I will bow to them. Sure, I can build a kite that will lift the bows when I go square but thats not necessarily the fastest way. We've had many days when the race committee's wind meter seems to be stuck on that mysterious 25kt mark!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted May 6, 2004 Report Share Posted May 6, 2004 30 knots plus with kite up.........been there Not much control but sure is great fun while you are upright... Kites on cats do create lift but very little. Our kites are very flat and do not have large sholders like the skiff kites which create bucket loads of lift. The extra lift that the kite gives you is countered by the ability to push your cat harder. Trap right down the back with one foot on the rudder. I have found that the kite dose settle the boat down more going downwind compared to going wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 7, 2004 Report Share Posted May 7, 2004 Then again Mal, a little birdy told me that when it comes to "ditching" under spinnaker you hold some kind of record! is that true? Darryl J Barrett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 8, 2004 Report Share Posted May 8, 2004 It's funny Mal, that mysterious "25 knot mark" on the race commitee's wind indicator, it seems that for some strange reason its a permanent upper level stopper on MOST clubs gauges. (often wondered about that) Darryl J Barrett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Its true, I have had my share. Three in one day last Cootharaba Cat Challenge- all downwind, one without spi. Only 8 out of 70 boats even went out for the last race (mostly hobie 16s). We had the only spinnaker up and stood the Tiger on its pole in the mud each time.It was just too windy to really race! The modern square top mains are lethal downwind with or without spi when its like that!! We now have a footstrap on the transom. I agree with Tornado on the flat kite theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 You know Mal that if someone wanted to, they could say that your not really an authority on sailing with a spinnaker in 30 knots, your more the authority on ditching under spinnaker in 30 knots (question: how do you sail under spinnaker in 30 knots? answer: just watch Mal and do the opposite) But I wouldn't say that (or as Sinfield would say "Not that there's anything wrong with that") Darryl J Barrett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Originally posted by REV YUKKA II: what sort of boat are you going to use? Sorry Rev I seemed to have missed your post. The boat I'm working with is my 430 which I designed and built in 97/98 and sailed successfully at many venues for three years on the NSW East cost and Victoria. It's a 4.3 weighing 70kg built from moulds by Pete Skews off plugs I shaped. It's possibly the fastest uni-rigged 14ft cat in the world and was aimed at younger sailors in an attempt at re-kindling interest in cat sailing in Australia. It's a great boat even if I say it myself but it failed to attract much interest sadly. Something to do with the Oz attitude that bigger must be better and a 14ftr couldn't possibly be a fun boat to sail. The kite will make a big difference to it's off-wind speed which should put me right amongst the H16's. The link is to pics of the boat. Thanks for your interest, Bern http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287241557 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inland_Sailor Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Berny Great Idea the 430. I believe your on the right idea here. 14'' boats can be as fast as bigger cats. Most cats of this length are entry level boats [PT's aside]There is a need for a new 14' cat built with todays modern materials and designs. How does it perform in light winds between 3 - 8 knts? How does it compare with the Canadian Mystere 4.3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 I.S. I've never encountered a Mystere 4.3 in my travels but I know a bit about them and frankly I don't think it would be a contest. The Mystere is a heavy boat (230lbs or about 104kg) with skegs (urrrrk). It's 7.5ft wide and has a total (main and headsail) of 132sqft on a 23ft mast. The 430 weighs 75kg, has daggerboards, is 7ft 10ins wide, has a 145sqft of Chris Cairns mylar main on a 26ft wing mast with 4:1 outhaul, 6:1 downhaul and 2:1 spanner. The spi will be 150sqft. The boat also has a number of rather radical design characteristics which make it tack extremely well and point like a mono. It goes harder than all existing 14's in Oz (cat, sloop or s/sloop), including 14squares and currently with main only, runs with slower H16's. It needs the kite though to go as hard off the breeze. Basically it's a great little boat and it kicks butt. Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 You tell them Bern, BUT I think well reserve the final credits until we sail against each other this coming summer! I will be looking forward to seeing you on the water, cheers Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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