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Downturn in interest


berny

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I don't think that there's any argument that cat sailing in Oz has taken a dive and continues in decline.

What are your thoughts on why in general terms and in particular, why aren't more young people taking it up as a sport/recreation/pastime?

Bern

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Bern, I think with how society is today and the cost of things adds to why catamaran sailing, or all types of sailing has seen a slight decline.

There are so many options out there for kids now and they often go the easier road for a thrill, which includes video games and the like. The internet is also something they enjoy using a great deal. Me too, that is why I am on this forum.

Cost is another thing. My first sailing boat cost me $150 and it was a Moth is pretty good condition.

My first Nacra 5.8 cost less the 10K. A brand new Maricat is now $8,500 which in all reality is a joke.

The cost of R&D on the boat has long been paid off and that should not be included int he price, so realistically I can't see why they are not more like $5000 new.

That also goes for many of the other off the beach catamarans. I understand the cost in Taipans and T's, but a little glass catamaran that has been sailing on the harbour for 25 years should be cheap as chips.

Sailing clubs are in a downward spiral as insurance costs are increasing and the general community spirit seems to have slowly died.

Dad doesn't have enough time to spend all day sunday with the kids at the beach sailing anymore, mum has to see her best friend (or something like that) and we have no more time for us.

This is part of the reason I would like to see us getting something together at Balmoral where family and friends can come along and have just as good a time at the beach and cafe's as we do while sailing.

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HEY Bern,

My thoughts are sure boats cost more but the population of Sydney is being forced further west to where there is cheaper housing, consequently the households on the "sea shore" are older and not a lot of children living in easy reach of a sailing club, those older sailors who marry and start a family have maybe a 50 minute plus drive towing a cat in sydney weekend peakhour traffic to the club to only find out it is too windy or pissing down or the opposite look out their front door at Penrith or Camden and it is blowing a gail and don't bother to go......

When I was younger i lived at Roselands and took 15 minutes to get down to Botany bay towing the old paper tiger that same trip now takes around 40 minutes....

Bankstown to Kurnell is around 40 to 50 minutes...

So you have to be really dedicated to sail and race any sort of boat or rather well off to be able to live near the water in sydney where sailing is taking place.

This is why Lake Macquarie and port Kembla have good number of boats regulary attending.

Just a thought.......

cheers

d

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Our access to a yacht clubs and sailing in general here in South Australia Berny is much easier than in NSW, particularly around Sydney, and although the population increases and the suburbs spread, it hasn't seemed to have made any difference to the access over the last 40 years, so that hasn't been anything like the factor here that it is in NSW. The one encouraging thing that is apparent here is that cats sailing regularly at clubs here, in total, have almost doubled over the last 4 years from the low that they dropped to in the 90's. So lets hope that that is some sort of barometer for the future all over Australia. I see on the pages of this forum alone, that there appears to have been some sort of a resurgence in interest in the Mari cats, particularly up there, and although that can be attributed some what the the low cost of second hand boats, that alone doesn't explain the generation of interest. While the interest in 4.3 cats grows, then the rest has a good chance of following

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Ok, then why did LMNCC at Rathmines close down? A great club, in a great location, open regattas well supported,...gone? Could it be that because everyone was so busy with other things they had insufficient time to run a sailing school and ensure their continuity by continually introducing new blood. They were in a small close community where support should have been good but there's not much money there for sailing and running a successful sailing club requires plenty of $$$$$$.

Cat sailors also suffer from 'sailing cultural cringe'. That is they sail unconventional boats and so they feel as though they are the renegades and are not welcome at traditional sailing clubs, (and mostly they're not frown.gif). This has resulted in cat exclusive clubs being located in remote locations, Kernell, Rathmines, Wallace Lake, Koonawarra Bay Lake Illawarra, this and the fact that land in the developed locations was too exy for, and unavailable to new clubs at the time cats became popular. There are no such clubs in high population areas that I know of save Pittwater CC.

Cats are not often seen on Sydney Harbour, at Manly, Rose Bay, The Spit, etc. We need to be seen to be appreciated!!! We shouldn't be hiding in remote locations. Every class should probably run their States and Nationals at Manly instead of places like Lake Cootharaba.

Maybe we should join (infiltrate wink.gif) existing established successful 'general' (mono) sailing clubs? There's good $$$$ at the more affluent of these clubs, money to buy boats (cats) and create good size fleets. Cats used to sail at Woollarah. What happened there? There is current discussion about sailing at Balmoral and I think that's a fantastic idea. Put our cats where the money is. If there is resistance toward cats mixing with mono's then we could do what has been proposed at Balmoral and sail on their 'off' day which is Sunday at Balmoral, and Saturday at Woollarah. I think that in the main they'd be happy to have the extra members. I think I'll take the 430 to Woollarah this Sunday just for the hell of it.

Bern

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 14 May 2004).]

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Fire up Bern,

In the next couple of weeks Macca and I are going to have a bit of a sail at Balmoral (aren't we macca?), but it is outside their race season so it is pretty dead. There are still a heap of Western Oriental Gentlement in the area with their wives and kids cooking up a feast in the park, but the club is closed to all but the hire section (canoes and sailboards).

I occasionally like going there on a Saturday when they have all their boats out racing, and they are more than friendly towards the cat people.

With the t's and Narca's, they loved to come and have a chat and they really do like the horsepower part of cat sailing. You may drive a Volvo, but you love the look and the sound of the V8.

Cat's still sail out of Rose Bay, but you have to remember that the the Woollarah sailing club was set up around the Olympic classes originally, and has slowly changed over time, so there are really only T's there.

When I was at school I had a Laser and also for a time a Contender there. From 1984 I sailed a Nacra 5.8 in the school racing in Rose Bay. That was a good look as it was a scratch start for all boats.

So the start line had Lasers. Laster 2's, 470's, Manly Juniors, Flying 11's, a Hobie 14 and 16 and a 5.8.

I had to sail 5.5 laps for the MJ's one, and I could still usually get in first.

When we get closer to spring, we could hold a picnic day at Balmoral and get as many people there as possible and see what they think.

I however, do not want to upset the guys at Kurnell, but I am not a fan of spending that long travelling to sail. I feel like it is another 20 minutes once you turn on the Captain Cook Drive.

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I not sure Berny, Sydney seems to "go it's own way" but here in Adelaide, Mono hulls and cats have sailed at, and shared the water and the clubs equally, always. If you want to race in SA (and not just in the metropolitan area) you do it at one of the jacht clubs, where you are equally welcomed whether cat or mono. Even after racing, at the bar mono sailors and cat sailors talk, drink, and joke together as equals - sailors- its a shared experience, not a competition of "what type of craft do you sail"

From memory Rathmines, even years ago seemed to struggle to maintain themselves as a "club" I don't think that they ever "owned" any actual facilities ie club house etc, and without that sort of infrastructure their existance surely would be tenuous at the best of times? Whereas from where I see it, a club like Kurnell, which has had it's own facilities for many years, has never seemed to have suffered the ups and downs of the popularity or lack there of, of sailing any where near as much, and seem to always attract their fair share of sailors and sailing events?

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Guest Michael

Hi

I disagree with Emmessee says about cost. At my local club in Victoria we have had strong growth in cat sailing over the past 4 years side by side with the mono fleet.

Cost may be perceived to be a hurdle and it is up to every sailor to dispell that myth. Down here we get a range of boats from $22k F18's all the way down to a $2.5k Hobie 18's and even cheaper laser mono's. Anybody can go sailing for less than $300 to buy a wetsuit etc as a crew.

The model we use is to get teenagers onto the front of the cats to get them off the speedbumps (monohulls smile.gif) as soon as possible. So far retention rates have been good and most of them have a ball and a few are starting to get their own boats.

In attracting people to sailing in general, I believe you are either a boat person or your not. Once again, I believe all sailors should make a point to take anybody who expresses an interest for a test sail whenever conditions are appropriate (10 - 15kts or whatever will showcase our sport without scareing or boring them to death)

My $0.02 worth anyway smile.gif

Michael

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Good too see you join in Michael, but cost is one of the major factors, as I know many people who would love to get involved but say that they do not have the dollars to do it with all else that is happening in their lives.

The cost of living has grown rapidly in the past 7 years and is not slowing down at all.

I would love to own and sail an F18, but I just can't justify that expenditure on a boat like that. I earn a decent wage as well as most of my friends. Still, with paying off mortgages, running a car and sending the kids to school, there is not much left for a sailing boat.

Time is also one of the major factors in restricting people sailing. By the time you have worked all week, leaving home when it is dark and getting home when it is dark, you want the weekend to see the kids and wife.

Even with all these issues, I think those of us with the love of the sport, can make a difference and show everyone that it is affordable and can be a family sport.

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Emmesse,

No offence taken by the Kurnell Guys. I live in Glebe so I understand your pain. However would be great to see you guys at an occasional club race or regatta. Plan to come and join you at Belmoral.... maybe over winter.

Woollarah sadly do not have Ts there anymore and upon inquiring about some boat storage were not too keen about it either. They do have a couple of good Hobie 16s though.

The only local club that have Tornados now is Kurnell. We have 3 regular and may see upto another 3. I am working with 2 of the others to help get them upto Olympic rig. If we can manage this I hope to see 6 regular Tornados. We also have a few other guys interested but have to find boats for tham.

Regards

Stephen.

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I am more than happy to head to Kurnell for a regatta or the occasional club race, and I do not want to take away from that, but it's a hike.

I am happy to try and get to any regatta's, but as with other people my time is precious and I don't get to see my daughter enough as it is, so if I have her the weekend of a regatta, unfortunatly she gets the nod over sailing.

I wish she wanted to crew, then I could do both.

Matt

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These days, I find that fewer people have the time or the inclination to go catamaran RACING. There is plenty of interest in recreational sailing (look at the used boat market and see how hard it is to find a decent used cat)but the added obligation of belonging to a club has shyed many away. They want something simple which doesn't take all day to rig and they can use when they feel like it, not when someone tells them they must turn up.

Its tough trying to keep the fleets alive, but when our clubs close down, the veues will be lost to sailing forever.

I don't know the answer but I suspect that entry level boats at club level is the start. I have seen clubs decimated when their regular members discover the excitement of travelling to regattas and deserting the home fleet.

I really don't think that expense is the problem. Try playing a round of golf every weekend for a year and see how much it costs. If someone can't afford to buy an $800.00 Maricat or Hobie 14 and the associated running costs, then they can't really afford this sport (or any other one).

I get disheartened by the number of newcomers that I introduce to the sport, help with coaching, training and encouragement, only to see them race twice and disappear. It took me years of copping a caning by the good guys to get close to winning a regatta. There doesn't seem to be the persistance today. Many people choose little-known classes to achieve their success. Is the problem too many classes? We have some of the best sailing conditions in the world and many of the best sailors which amazingly come from a very small sailing population

Go figure??

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Mal all i will say is how spot on your comments are.I to have seen a decline in our sport. we all seem to becomeing regatta sailors and do not support our home clubs.Dont be supprised to see more clubs closeing in QLD if things dont improve in membership.Maybe we need pokies?

even R.Q is struggling for dingy membership.

One thing i will say is that i think our affilation assiocation eg QYA should get out and be seen in doing some work for the members.

enough said leon

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Guest Michael

Emmessee, Everybody will agree the cost of living is growing and nobody is suggesting that everybody should sail an F18 (Mighty fine idea though). As I posted above, it doesn't have to cost a fortune to get into sailing.

Secondly, I believe the return to club based sailing is the way to go on so many levels. The main thing is for clubs to be attractive for the whole family, not just the blokes. I attended my club AGM last night and since we adopted this theory we have gone from virtually bankrupt 5 years ago to being one of the strongest on the bay, both in membership and $$$.

Mal, If people view turning up to sail every week as a chore, of course they will drop off. Once again, it is up to all sailors and the clubs to make it something that people look forward to going to each week.

I think we need to take a longer term view of this. A lot of people will come and go which is to be expected, however if each club gained 3-5 long term members (either individual or better still families) every season, within only a few years sailing would be stronger than it has ever been.

Anyway, I'm off for a sail. (damn it's cold today frown.gif

Michael

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I personally think that the family is squeezed so tightly these days considering that it now takes TWO people working 150hrs/wk (75ea inc. trav.) to maintain a reasonable (read fairly affluent but about acceptable here in Oz) standard of living. The census determines what our average expenditure potential is, and Governments and commerce cost all their services to extract every ounce of available cash from the household budget resulting in us working our butts off just to keep up. And when you consider that there's about 210 hrs a week that mums and dads are conscious (not sleeping) it only leaves 60hrs /wk for maintenance and recreation. Now if you go sailing, 1hr to get ready, 1hr travel, 1hr rigging, 2hrs chattin' 2.5hrs racing 1.5hrs de-rig and cleanup you've just blown 9/10hrs mucking about when you could have been mowing, painting, playing with the kids,.......... 60hrs - 10 = 50 hrs for eating breakfast and dinner 16 times each, 7 showers each, plus shopping, banking, visiting, watching tele, fixin' the boat........................Ok the figures are a bit rubbery but you get my meaning;

Guys, even if there was enough money, (debatable), there's just not enough time, end of story.

Bern

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 15 May 2004).]

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What if I devise some internet cat racing game which we can all play from our lounge rooms? It could solve all the time and travel problems and there can be no excuses. Reckon I can get over a thousand competitors to my first regatta.

It won't quite be the same though!

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.

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Don't laugh Mal, it just may come to that. There are currently available virtual sail racing programs so it's already been done. There's been a shift in the focus of western communities away from hands on recreation experience, to ownership of material things. In other words, most people feel it's more important to own a nice big house in an acceptable suburb and new big car, (keeping up with the Jones) than to actually do stuff.

b

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Actually a better idea might be a sailing reality show..............Oh thats right we had one at lunchtime when the cricket was on!

I'd like to blow up all the home improvement shows on TV and replace them with exciting catsailing footage. Sorry the Maricats and Hobie 14s won't get a guernsey but idiots nosediving Tigers in 30kts with spinnakers on will be a sure thing.

Get my autograph now before it becomes valuable!

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How many of the clubs represented here run sail training schools/programs for newbys? At Concord they have an open day early in the season, usually a Sunday, and they invite via local advertising, all and sundry to come down and go for a sail. Members bring their boats down and just take people out for a bit of a squirt and generally they get a good few sign-ups for the school which is run Saturdays before racing. The YA kicks the can for some $$$$ too. You do need an accredited trainer for the cash.

Bern

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Hey, don't knock the sailing reality TV show that was on during the cricket breaks.

I was on that and all you could hear was "pull the beeping sheet for beeping sake. What the beep are you doing down there. I could sail this piece of beep better with my beeping grandmother."

Ahhh, those were the days.

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I reckon there would be viewers out there to justify a sailing show, the problem is that the costs to produce one at the same quality as the Skiffs were is prohibitive. Sure the total business plan is viable but it is a bit of the chicken and the egg scenario. It would be impossible to get the sponsores to commit unless there is airtime etc guarranteed and there is no way a series will get the go ahead without the sponsors... so the whole thing is sunk.

On the subject of the decline in sailing I think it is a matter of perception within the youngsters out there. They see either big yachts or seriously complicated small boats. Not an easy entry to a sport. The reality is that cheap, simple fun is easy to find (my maricat $800 & even I can rig it) but most kids don't even know it is available, YA needs to put some concerted effort into highlighting the opportunities that exist for youngsters to start getting involved. We have the best setup for sailing in the world (i refer to my point in another thread about kids starting sailing in Germany in the freezing cold) yet most of our yongsters are busy with a PS2 or whatever.

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Originally posted by macca:

I reckon there would be viewers out there to justify a sailing show, .......................

On the subject of the decline in sailing .................................the YA needs to put some concerted effort into highlighting the opportunities that exist for youngsters to start getting involved.

There's no doubt that sail boat racing has huge potential for TV except that no one has figured out how to film it successfully. I have what I believe to be the answers but I'm not keen to throw a lot more money at sailing.

The YA and AYF are mostly concerned with big boat racing/sailing where the big money is and I think they care little about club sailors.

Bern

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They have worked out how to film it, the 18's were very well done in their prime, it was just an expensive exercise, you needed a chopper and two camera boats as well as half a dozen headcam/boatcams, this is more than the cost of filming an NRL game. Plus the NRL game is edited on the fly, whilst the sailing is al post produced adding a heap of complexity. So unless there is serious return for the production company there is no incentive to do it.

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