comments for an F14 association???

[Darryl J Barrett]

Most (I think, possibly all) of that looks excellent Berny, as a "mission statement"! But a mission statement is not what is required by the "Associations Incorporation Act" to register and incorporate an association. A "mission statement" is a "statement of intent" that is used/circulated, out into the public arena, for any and all interested parties to read and comment on before/if the objectives as outlined within that statement are taken to the next step. It is a statement of just what it is that the organisers are promoting/ trying to do, and its object is to help gather "like minded" people together in the endevour. A mission statement is usually the pre curser to the formation of an association and the adoption of a "constitution", "class rules" and "Regulations", prior to having those (constitution, etc) registered

Darryl

[Darryl J Barrett]

How does this sound as a revised "Box Rule"

(includes all preceeding 14' cats)

The “Box rule” governing an F14 catamaran is –

1. L.O.A. of the hulls (excluding any “T foils, rudders and all rudder fittings) 4.34 metres

2. Maximum Beam Overall 2.5 metres

3. Mast Height, unrestricted, although the mast can only

form a percentage of the total sail area of no more than 15%

of the mainsail area, i.e. no “solid” wing sail

(articulated or not).

All the sails shall be of a “soft” fabric type

4. Maximum Sail Area (including half the area of the

mast bounded by the luff length of the main sail), shall not exceed 27.87 sq metres (300 sq feet)

This maximum area includes the combination of the

areas of ALL sails whether there be a mains’l, a jib,

and a spinnaker, or any combination there of.

The measurements of all the sails shall be by the calculation of the “actual” sail area.

5. Construction materials are unrestricted

6. Minimum Weight (all up sailing weight minus crew) 50 kgs

7. “T” foils (not hydrofoils) used primarily, ONLY for the stablelization of pitch, and only if attached to, or forming part of the rudders, or attached to the aft underside of the hull within 300mm of the transoms, and that the angle of “attack” of the “T” foils are non adjustable whilst sailing, are allowed. No attached foil shall exceed the width of the allowable beam of the catamaran, as allowed within this box rule.

8. Closed cell bouncy is required to be fixed internally in

the hulls, sufficient to maintain the vessel, and its crew,

in the upright position, with the hulls at, or above the

surface of the water, when one or both hulls are

completely full of water.

9. Number and weight of crew are unrestricted. (with reference to “Crew and Crew Weight” in the preceding section of the class rules)

10. Any spinnaker pole, or spinnaker pole fittings shall not protrude further forward of the forward most point of the bows (measured at 90 degrees from the centre of a line connecting the two most forward parts of the bows of each hull), by more than one metre.

11. All 14’ catamarans, designed and “on the water”, before the incorporation of this constitution, that have a hull length no greater than 14'6", and carry a total sail area, (inclusive of all the working sails, including half the area of the mast bounded by the luff length of the main sail, and a spinnaker/reacher) no greater than 300 sq ft, can race with, and compete against, the F14 catamarans designed and built to conform within this "box rule" on an equal, "across the line first wins", albeit that they, (the pre existing 14' catamarans) shall be allocated an appropriate handicap/rating (per class of catamaran) for their finishing times against each other (that is the pre existing 14' designed catamarans) for competition within their own "division", exclusive of the "new" F14 catamarans.

[Darryl J Barrett]

And here's another clause to try to keep EVERY "14" sailor contented.

11. All 14’ catamarans, designed and “on the water”, before the incorporation of this constitution, that have a hull length no greater than 14'6", and carry a sail area, (inclusive of all the working sails, including half the area of the mast bounded by the luff length of the main sail, and a spinnaker/reacher) no greater than 300 sq ft IN TOTAL, can race with, and compete against, the F14 catamarans designed and built to conform within this "box rule", on an equal, "across the line first wins". Albeit that they, (the pre existing 14' catamarans) shall be allocated an appropriate handicap/rating (per class of catamaran), for their finishing times against each other (that is the pre existing 14' designed catamarans) for competition within their own "division", exclusive of the "new" F14 catamarans.

12. From time to time, by an agreed vote of the membership of the F14 catamaran association, catamarans that do not fit within the preceding “box rule” definitions (from item no 1. through to item 11. inclusive) may be allowed inclusion to sail/compete with and against all those catamarans that comply to the afore mentioned items 1. through to and including item 11. by being afforded an appropriate handicap/rating, designed to keep all racing results fair and equitable between all the different “classes” of catamarans so competing.

[Darryl J Barrett]

Basically the way that I see a new F14 association is that we will have an organising body that will look after all the interests of ALL 14'cats with the objects to encourage, (as Berny desires as well as all 14' cat sailors that I know) as many as possible 14' cats to sail "en masse" as a group and not as individual classes spread out all over the place. But there is also the desire to eliminate, for the future of 14'cats, the proliferation that has existed in the past of multiple different "classes" of cats that varied enormously in their shape and sizes, but were still labled loosely as 14' cats. This proliferation of measurement differences in the past tended to "divide" the 14' cats into smaller group numbers of cats sailing and spread out all over the place (divide and conquer comes to mind)

It's towards this objective the concept of the "formula 14" is directed! It will give all future designs, no matter who builds a cat, a set of maximums with which to design and build within. In so doing, hopefully, there can be an enormous variety of different designs etc of F14 cats, but, by fitting within the "Box Rule" they will all compete on that "equal" footing, IE they will only race against EACH other for "across the line first wins". This concept can do nothing except encourage GREAT competition in designs AND in sailing.

By placing ALL existing 14' cats under the umbrella of the F14 association (only as concerns racing F14) it gives the 14'cats something to "shoot" for ie to "beat" the F14's, and the competition of existing 14' cat against existing 14' cat will still have the same base rules as yardstick regattas do at the present. The big difference is, hopefully the increased numbers of 14'cats that compete against each other and which all band together with the object of beating the "new" F14's

As I see it there is only "up" sides to this concept.

[Darryl J Barrett]

Wearing another cap now, that of a manufacturer.

It will be the first time that it is "safe" for us to be able to sell on the open market place, our individual components ie hulls and/or beams, and/or c/boards, and or rudders and rudder stocks, etc etc, for any individual who wants to "build" up their own F14 catamaran.

This would have been commercial suicide when, in the past we had to produce a "class" of castamaran, where it was vital that, to retain a true "one design" required us to market finished cats complete from the factory to maintain the "quality" and integrity of the finished product.

[Emmessee]

I do know for a fact that manufacturers are already looking at designing and building a purpose built F14.

The problem is that there is no one set of rules that they can design off at the moment, so I think that it is vitally important to get them set as soon as possible.

They will not be able to get it out by this summer, but they could be close by Christmas if the rules can be finalised.

Also, the association needs to be set up as well, and could be incorporated with current 14 foot catamaran associations.

To make it free for the first year is an option and they get it when joining or re-subscribing to their current memberships.

Just an idea.

[bush pig]

Just an idea on f14 assocaition, with Mannering Park holding its 14 foot cat regatta in November we should get together and talk about the formation of a F14 Assocaition and at least start the ball rolling so Manufacture will see that we are very kean to get the assocaition off the ground and just not flapping our gums. What is the general thoughts of everyone out there.

Bill King

[berny]

The basic F14 rules as detailed in my post are adapted from the A class rules which is a class to which the F14's will likely have much in common, a point which prompted me to look at using them in the first place, (why re-invent the wheel?) Their rules have stood the test of time at international level and are very basic and uncomplicated. The only variations I see necessary are boat length and width measurements and sail area. Even the min. weight is adaptable because, as I see it, F14 boats should be much cheaper than A class boats and much more robust than A class boats which are generally stuffed after four or five years. I don't see any argument for making the F14 an ultra-light catamaran, except for that it might favour the cashed up high flyers, something I think we should strive to avoid.

IMHO F14 should be about boat design and sailing ability and the only way boat design can be a serious contributing factor is if several manufacturers are supplying boats which is the significant variation between formula racing and one design racing and most crucial to the concept.

Formula racing is principally successful because it depends not only on sailing ability but also on several marques competing against each other. If the boats can only be built competitively using exotic materials and processes, the number of manufacturers will be restricted and the prices will escalate as a result. The very reason the A class has endured is they keep to realistic materials and production processes.

So what do we have? We have the concept of a formula catamaran class i.e., a catamaran with two mirror image hulls located parallel to each other with a single mast built to a formula. What will the formula be? We have a 4.3m maximum allowable length (with a tolerance for existing boats) to start with.

If we embrace the A class basic principles and provide for some development, what we now need to decide on is maximum allowable beam, maximum allowable sail area and minimum allowable weight, and do we really want a spinnaker.

Over to you guys but be warned, if you make it too expensive, to complicated, to difficult, you'll be restricting possible participation and I think we need to keep the concept accessible to as many participants as possible for it to be a success. That's why I posted the mission statement Darryl, to foster continuing, constructive, on-going discussion.

Bern

[berny]

Ok then, lets take this a step further;

The maximum beam should probably be set at 2.5m which seems to be a sensible dimension given that the RTA's max. towing width is 2.5m. (Who wants to have to tow a 14ft cat on a tilt trailer??) The 430 is 2.4m wide (a decision which took some balls I might add) but it works and works well.

Any objections or alternative suggestions??

Bern

[Darryl J Barrett]

Berny, ALL competitive A class cats are "so called exotic" construction now i.e. Carbon Fibre, Kevlar, Nomex, "pre preg" and in the case of the Marlstrom hulls, auto claved. Although the hulls are 18' long their beam is only 7'6" and the actual "working" sail area of the A is almost the same (or smaller) than that proposed for the F14 (minus spinnaker), So if one compares an A class to an F14 then in reality we are comparing roughly the same volume of materials rearranged into a slightly different configuration. The use of "exotics" in the construction of the A has been one of the major factors that has kept them viable over the "lean" sailing years, and it is the factor that is now helping to place them right up in the fore front of "desired" cats (particularly in the USA where until recent years they were virtually unknown).

I have read your postings where you say that people go for bigger cats because they misguidedly think that "bigger is better" and I personally agree with you. BUT I also think that for decades there have been a lot of sailors who have gone to bigger cats because that saying was right - bigger was better - The bigger cats did for many years offer a better sophistication of sailing. The vast majority of 14' cats have always been geared more for sale as "easy fun cats (read toy)" and as you are quite familiar with the Mari, just how far would a Mari cat have ever gone if it had been produced and marketed as a "racing cat" even in the 80's, EXACTLY as it is configured today BUT scaled up to an 18' cat? No centre boards, limited sail shaping controls large "banana" etc? It would never have been even remotely competitive with the existing competition in performance. Would it have sold because it was “fun”?? Would people have bought it because it ”cost less”?? I think not.

What we are seeking to do with the F14 is to bring it finally, fully within the realm of the true thoroughbred, full on racing machine, not just one odd 14’ “good” design here and an odd one there but a whole generation of "performance 14' cats, BUT, unlike its equivalents in the F16 and F18's a thoroughbred racing machine that you can still take out and sail for pleasure without fear that it is so delicate that the slightest bump will destroy it, (that becomes a "size" thing, the smallest of similar objects are, all else being equal, the greater assumers of strength)

If that is accomplished (the sophistication of the 14’ cat) I feel quite sure that not only will 14’ sailors who come into sailing through F14 STAY with the 14’ size, I also feel sure that some of the sailors who are now sailing on larger cats will also be attracted back onto 14’ cats.

If you start to confuse “performance” racing cats for today’s competitive sailors with “bringing more people into sailing” then you cannot combine the two concepts! To satisfy the competitive racing desire of sailors today you have to offer them something that is “at the leading edge” and that will always cost more than some one who wants to “begin” sailing is prepared to pay. To have something for “the beginner” it needs to be cheap (and I mean real cheap – preferably less than $1500.00) and it has to be sold to them as nothing more than a “fun toy” that perhaps may encourage them to take their sailing further at a later date. If you try to combine the “performance cat” with the “beginners cat” today I am sorry but the time to do that passed in about 1985 and it will never be seen again in our life times.

Darryl

[Guest Phill Brander]

Daryl,

I had a very quick flick through your rule set with the intention to then study it in

more detail. However once I read you proposed minimum weight of 50kg rigged I had second thoughts.

I've always been an advocate of light weight boats but everything must be within reason.

You may be able to build a 50kg cat rigged and I expect a couple of people that know what they are doing out there may also do that but it is not a game that you are going to get any other manufacturers playing.

On the other hand I would not like to see the minimum weight at the weight of the current 14ft boats which I expect would be around 110kg rigged.

I think the min weight needs to be somewhere between these limits. This is the best chance of encouraging more players in the game and a weight not too heavy. I personally would consider the F14 class a more practical class if the weight were around the 75kg mark rigged with working sails and spinnaker gear.

To me, this seems the best option.

Regards,

Phill

Originally posted by Darryl J Barrett:

Berny, ALL competitive A class cats are "so called exotic" construction now i.e. Carbon Fibre, Kevlar, Nomex, "pre preg" and in the case of the Marlstrom hulls, auto claved. Although the hulls are 18' long their beam is only 7'6" and the actual "working" sail area of the A is almost the same (or smaller) than that proposed for the F14 (minus spinnaker), So if one compares an A class to an F14 then in reality we are comparing roughly the same volume of materials rearranged into a slightly different configuration. The use of "exotics" in the construction of the A has been one of the major factors that has kept them viable over the "lean" sailing years, and it is the factor that is now helping to place them right up in the fore front of "desired" cats (particularly in the USA where until recent years they were virtually unknown).

I have read your postings where you say that people go for bigger cats because they misguidedly think that "bigger is better" and I personally agree with you. BUT I also think that for decades there have been a lot of sailors who have gone to bigger cats because that saying was right - bigger was better - The bigger cats did for many years offer a better sophistication of sailing. The vast majority of 14' cats have always been geared more for sale as "easy fun cats (read toy)" and as you are quite familiar with the Mari, just how far would a Mari cat have ever gone if it had been produced and marketed as a "racing cat" even in the 80's, EXACTLY as it is configured today BUT scaled up to an 18' cat? No centre boards, limited sail shaping controls large "banana" etc? It would never have been even remotely competitive with the existing competition in performance. Would it have sold because it was “fun”?? Would people have bought it because it ”cost less”?? I think not.

What we are seeking to do with the F14 is to bring it finally, fully within the realm of the true thoroughbred, full on racing machine, not just one odd 14’ “good” design here and an odd one there but a whole generation of "performance 14' cats, BUT, unlike its equivalents in the F16 and F18's a thoroughbred racing machine that you can still take out and sail for pleasure without fear that it is so delicate that the slightest bump will destroy it, (that becomes a "size" thing, the smallest of similar objects are, all else being equal, the greater assumers of strength)

If that is accomplished (the sophistication of the 14’ cat) I feel quite sure that not only will 14’ sailors who come into sailing through F14 STAY with the 14’ size, I also feel sure that some of the sailors who are now sailing on larger cats will also be attracted back onto 14’ cats.

If you start to confuse “performance” racing cats for today’s competitive sailors with “bringing more people into sailing” then you cannot combine the two concepts! To satisfy the competitive racing desire of sailors today you have to offer them something that is “at the leading edge” and that will always cost more than some one who wants to “begin” sailing is prepared to pay. To have something for “the beginner” it needs to be cheap (and I mean real cheap – preferably less than $1500.00) and it has to be sold to them as nothing more than a “fun toy” that perhaps may encourage them to take their sailing further at a later date. If you try to combine the “performance cat” with the “beginners cat” today I am sorry but the time to do that passed in about 1985 and it will never be seen again in our life times.

Darryl

[Darryl J Barrett]

Phil I know exactly where you and Berny "are coming from" regarding the minimum weight, and I have to admit that 50Kg is light, mind you that is for the 14A which is without spinnaker or any of the hardware required for the spinnaker (and sail(s)), the minimum weight for the F14 is 55Kg's, and if anyone had said that to me a few years ago I would have taken a step backwards and looked real hard at it.

Just let me give you a few of my thoughts about that weight.

A few years ago, we helped a friend build the moulds and a pair of hulls for an arrow (we virtually built the whole boat which was what he thought was us helping "a little", for free - that's what friends are for?), when the hulls came out of the mould I was more than a little surprised that without going to any great extremes, the weight of each hull was only 15Kg's. I hadn't paid much attention to the potential weights while the work was being done as we were working to his desired lay up. I thought at that time that they (the hulls) wouldn't stand up to the "regular" use of competitive racing, due to their low weight. I was completely mistaken on that score as those hulls are still fully competitive and racing regularly without any sign of deteration, and they are now more than 10 years old! It doesn't take a genius to work out the potential for the minimum weight obtainable for any 14' cat when the hulls can be built at a weight of less than 16Kg's! The lay-up for those hulls was in E glass (woven) with a 6mm divynacel foam core and epoxy resin (the only vacuum bagging was for the foam core), the main (two) bulkheads were divynacell foam sandwiched between a layer of E glass either side and there were several polystyrene bulkheads (bare) epoxy into place throughout the length of the hull for rigidity and hull wall compression. It was a very "cheap" and simple application and one that works extremely well. Another "prime example" that turned my thinking around regarding "weight" was about two years ago when I came into possession of a "mosquito" hull which was all that remained of a cat that that had tried to push a two ton truck out of a drive way. I had it sitting around for a while thinking that I could perhaps use it someday as a replacement for someone if it was needed when I had to shift it by myself in a shed. When I picked it up the weight surprised me and when later we weighed it, even with fittings it was only 21Kg's! Well, I just had to open it up to see how it was made. It is a ply skin and has two marine ply frames, all the rest of the framing is in polystyrene foam bulkheads and "sub floors" epoxy and taped into position. Stiff, rigid and light AND THIS HULL WAS BUILT IN 1976.

The latest example was just recently when I went past Jim Boyer's works in Ballarat and saw a number of new A class "flyer" hulls hanging in stock with the weights of each hull marked on them. They all averaged 16Kg's per hull, in their finished state. So from all of that it became apparent to me that not only was 14 to 16 Kg's per hull a possibility it appears that it is now common practice (and apparently has been for the odd builder here and there for more than 20 years) and if the hulls can be made down to that weight and still have a long competitive life then the weight savings in other areas is only a formality!

As I have said previously, I feel that it is a very difficult thing to set a minimum weight by "yesterdays" standards for a new concept as you can suffer the risk of creating "your own worst headache" in the very near future, and that if the minimum is set high it can quickly become the biggest deterrent to future acceptance of a class, the F18’s are suffering from just such a problem now with the “high” minimum weight that they set, which EVERYONE can now see with hind sight, was way too high, and their reasons – to keep costs down – Well I can assure you that if the F18 ‘s minimum weight was set at a more reasonably low minimum, it would NOT raise their manufacturing costs, and it would not mean that they would have to incorporate “exotics” in fact the manufacturing cost could actually be reduced

You only have to look at the all up sailing weights that the paper tigers have been sailing at for over thirty years to see that 110lb to 120lb or 50 to 55 Kg’s is not really such a low weight!

Personally it doesn’t worry me to have a minimum weight set at 60, 70, 80, or even 100 Kg’s, as long as ALL boats are at that weight for “equal” competitiveness on the water, but to go over a minimum allowable of at least a minimum of 60Kg’s, to my way of thinking would seem to be putting a “mill stone” around the neck of the F14 concept for any future development

What ever the minimum weight that is agreed upon, we will be building our boats down to our “standard weight”, which is basically the lowest weight that we can produce and still guarantee a full competitive life, and if they come in below the F14 minimum, then we will bring the weight up to minimum by using “correctors” after manufacture.

So guys speak up, lets settle the “MINIMUM” weight quickly while it can still be incorporated into the “box rule”

The question could be asked “do you want a state of the art formula for the future, or do you just want revised versions of the same cats on the market now?”

Darryl J Barrett

[Darryl J Barrett]

There is of course the option of setting the "minimum" weight for an F14 and 14A at, say 50kg's or 55kg's FOR THE COMPLETE PLATFORM (including rudders tiller extension spinnaker pole with fittings and sheeting lines and the centre/dagger boards) BUT WITHOUT THE MAST, SAILS, BOOM, AND STANDING RIGGING??

Darryl

[berny]

Darryl a 70/75kg cat is hardly just a 'revised version of the same cats' currently on the market. No one is suggesting we build 110kg boats.

I think what people want is a reasonably robust boat which will still be competitive after 4/5 seasons and one which is also reasonably affordable. A 20% increase in cost, $15,000 as opposed to $12,500, is significant assuming that 20% is a reasonable assessment of the differential.

The F18's are hardly 'suffering' with 14 boats contesting the NSW state titles and 155 boats contesting the recent worlds. I'd be happy if F14 achieved those results in a similar time span even with heavy boats and 70kg isn't heavy for a 14.

My main concern is that we'll make the F14 too expensive and nobody will want to get involved. Let no one be mistaken here, it's going to be extremely difficult to get people to pay $15.000+ for a 14ft cat.

That's really all I have to say on the matter and I'll go along with the majority unless it all gets too expensive at which time I'll probably just stick to club sailing and bike riding.

I would however, like to hear from the other two potential Oz F14 manufacturers, Windrush and Brisbane Catamaran Centre.

Bern

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 14 August 2004).]

[Warrier]

I can't believe that your talking $15000 for a 14 foot cat.

You have to get below $10000.

The basic criteria you should look at for a F14 should be:

Easy to transport,Easy and quick to rig(not to many fine tuning parts),affordable.

Lets get in the real world here

[This message has been edited by Warrier (edited 16 August 2004).]

[Darryl J Barrett]

Hey guys I never ever said $15,000 !!! thats Bernys words. All I said was that an all carbon boat of ours would SELL at APROXIMATELY 20% more than a polyester one, and thats by no means a certainty - it may be a whole lot less - and as I said earlier, even a Windrush 14 fully optimised will cost you over $10,000 today, so although you guys can bitch all you like about the "high prices" of everything today lets be a bit realistic, if you bought a house in the last few months you would be paying more than double what you would have payed for the same house five to six years ago (or less!) the lowest that any manufacturer could produce and market a 14' cat for, five years ago was about $8000 to $9000 and I suppose your saying that overheads, materials, and labor, costs shouldn't have gone up for him? or if they have he should "absorb" all those additional costs so that you guys can go sailing on new boats at last decades prices?

Under $10000 for a 14' cat???? - a 16' Taipan

will cost double that for two extra feet of hull and a few extra square feet of sail, lets get our sense of value into perspective please and not just talk about a price "wish list".

[Emmessee]

I have to agree. I think the proce expectation of some people is that a 14 footer should be under $10,000. I wish it was and that would be great, but in all reality, if you wanted a brand new Maricat 4.3 on a trailer ready to race it would be $10,000.

A brand new Laser is $7,500 for the basic boat, then there is another $600 for the turbo pack to get it race ready and then about $1400 for a trailer. That's almost $10,000 right there. Then you need foil covers at $150 and a boat cover at $200, you are over $10,000.

I would doubt that on a trailer that Brisbane Catamaran Centre would be able to give you much change out of $10,000 for a brand new Maricat.

A new Hobie 16 is about 14k and even the Hobie wave is $7,700 and it is roto-moulded plastic.

We do have to wake up to reality and nothing is as cheap as it used to be. The problem is that people who have 14 foot catamarans usually bought them second hand for a couple of grand and added new sails, or they bought them new 20 years ago when they were 3 grand new.

Their car was also $15,000 new and it was a commodore V8 with a pin stripe.

[Emmessee]

Also, for good comparison, a 29er is about the same technology we would be looking at for the F14.

A new 29er is over $14,000 on a trailer. It is about 14 feet long 85kg's and carrying roughly the same sail area.

That is only one hull.

[Darryl J Barrett]

OH MY GOD are you telling me that a new V8 Commadore will set me back more than $17000???

JUST WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO, next you will try to tell me that the major powers will soon be fighting for the control of oil in the middle east!! NO NO some things are just beyond the realms of possibility!! I still liked the days when I could go to the "pictures" at the "Odeon" on a friday night for ninepence (and for that I got into the upstairs "royal" area), AND I could buy a packet of "columbines" at interval out of that ninepence (nine cents in todays money), after I would go home to the first new house I owned which cost me a staggering 1,500 pounds. AHH if only time would move on but prices stayed the same! Still, I was earning an excellent "average" weekly wage then of seven pound ten shillings a week ($15) and could save almost half of it!!!

[Phil Palmer]

As an unfrequent visitor to this forum please excuse me if I'm out of line with your theories however something I recently discovered with the F16s is that there is no interest from the larger manufacturers to produce a 16 footer at that weight to be sold worldwide and be fully warranted. So with that in mind have you considered approaching Hobie and Nacra to see what they would consider producing. Could it be possible that the F18 with all its weight issues may become the ONLY successful Formula cat due to its acceptance by the big manufacturers.

I'm pretty keen on the F16 (philosophy) but wouldn't bother committing to a boat unless the class was obviously going somewhere, which I can't see at present.

Just food for thought

Cheers Phil

[Darryl J Barrett]

There are two (possibly three) manufactureres currently looking very closely at manufacturing "production" F14's as well as at least one desiger/builder working on the exersize.

It would appear that the only area to be "settled" on is the "minimum weight"

Regardless of that issue, the first "manufacturer production" F14 will be available on the market this coming summer, with the probability of more (different manufacturers) to follow very shortly there after.

The likely hood of "existing" 14' cats converting in the near future, to Spinnaker, looks very encouraging as well.

So I would not say that "the F14 doesn't appear to be going anywhere" The concept for F14 was only first "aired" a few months ago, and if the level of interest shown over that short period of time is anything to go on, I would only say "wait and see just what this next summer sailing season brings" before making ANY judgements on its future or lack there of.

On the subject of F16, there are already several manufacturers in Britain, Europe, and now the USA (as well as in Australia) producing production F16 catamarans so I wouldn't say that their seems to be much "holding back" them either?

Am I confusing your point????

[Phil Palmer]

No not confusing it at all, it just appears to me that the strength of the F18 has really been in the support of the big manufacturers, ie if you take all the Tigers and Nacra F18s out then there isn't really any class racing to be had.

I certainly agree that the weights should be realistic in that they can be lower than the old Windie I sailed 20 years ago, though I don't remember it being excessive anyway.

I'll keep sitting on the fence Re F16 as the numbers are still dubious, I would have though AHPC would be really rolling out a load of 4.9s if people were jumping on that bandwagon, but please don't construe this as critisism, I think the F16 would be my next boat if it as a class comes good. All I'm interested in is good competitive racing with reasonable size fleets.

Maybe Hobie could prop up their F18 Tiger with an F14 Pussycat.(in jest,truely)

Phil

[Darryl J Barrett]

The F18 have been around for a few years now, and I see their "popularity" as an indication more of a resurgent interest in off the beach sailing. Partly because of the formula concept which has opened the gate for a greater variety of manufacturers to compete more directly against each other on the water (without the anchoring of "class" and “yardsticks” etc) and less to do with their weights and/or the number of "large" manufacturers producing cats within the formula. They "took a punt" at a time when catamaran sailing was at its lowest numbers in 30 years and they have tapped into a market that was "out there" but no one knew of it as there were not many/any "new" boats (particularly 14 and/or 16’) available for the public to show their interest in. Hobie had been releasing different sizes and configurations of cats all through the 80’s and 90’s with little or no success as “class” cats and I am sure that when the F18’s took off (and they couldn’t wait to jump on the band wagon) they breathed a great sigh of relief.

To my way of thinking the same applies with the F16 and an F14. No one has really known of any market for these types of cats until recently, particularly with the F14, as it has been many years since a potential sailor wanting to "get into" 14' cat sailing could actually walk into a showroom or yard and inspect a "new" cat on the floor ready for sale! So even if there was a potential market out there for the sale of catamarans, where could the "general public" see any new product? The only way that the vast majority of potential sailors could "get into” sailing cats was to buy second hand OR become active at a yacht club. Not the most convenient ways for "Joe public" to become "initiated” into sailing?? The F18 have the jump on all the other sizes of cats and simply because of that I would expect them to have the greatest numbers sailing, nothing to do with their weights or the number of manufacturers building them, But even from starting from a lap behind there is the potential for the F16 and the F14’s to overtake them. The so-called “LARGE” manufacturers (who at present have a little tunnel vision towards the F18) will ALL start to produce cats IF AND WHEN they can see that there is a lucrative market there for them. They are not so likely to “step in” at the infancy of these “new formula’s and try to “create” the market, but more likely to “take advantage” of it WHEN it is established. It wouldn’t surprise me one little bit to see at least three (or more) of our (Australian) so-called LARGE manufacturers producing F16 production cats on the market here within the next two years.

The only thing that can, in my opinion, stop that from happening, is if there is any sudden and lasting downturn in the Australian economy and all the “disposable income” is sucked out of the pockets of the buying public.

[Darryl J Barrett]

As regards the weights of the F14, there is discussion continuing at the present time to set the minimum weight of the F14 at the more conservative limit of 75KG's all up (minus crew).

[Phil Palmer]

Well Darryl, I hope it all works out for the best as it will be great to see some of the young club sailors get into cat sailing on boats that are a comfortable size for them to handle, the main problem we have at my local club is that the smallest cats are 16's so while the young guns are great for crewing they aren't that keen on stepping from a laser or MG to a 16 foot cat by themselves.

I'll have to drop in more often and see what you guys are planning.

Cheers Phil