Emmessee Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Nacra are very keen to develop an F14 and I have been in contact with them a fair bit, but they are not willing to sink good money in without some guarantee that there will be a future in this class. They will also be looking at developing kits to add to Maricat's Winrush's and any other 14 footer who would like to step into the F14 ranks without buying a new boat. They really need some rules (the ones already stated in this forum they have). Not just what we think, but some rules that are going to stick and set in concrete before they commit 000's of dollars into the development. Also, if we could get the 14 foot classes to talk to each other and set up an F14 Association that is included for the first year in their current association subcription fees would be a huge boost to starting the F14 class. It brings the awareness of the F14 to the people sailing regular 14's and so forth. I myself would sail both F14 and also class rules depending on the regatta, but I think that the more that know and belong, the better. Just a few ideas from me, but I also think that there is a need for the rules to be finalised ASAP. Thoughts? Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrier Posted August 4, 2004 Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 I think that is an excellent idea. Setting up an F14 association with a committee should be the first step,there's obviously enough interest to do this. The committee should come from reps from the various 14 foot classes as the sailors from these classes are going to be the foundation of any new F 14 Class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted August 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 One thing I will say about the F14 rules that I think should be considered, is the weights of the boats. There should be a decent minimum weight set to keeps some of the costs down, because if manufacturers start making their F14's out of the exotics, they will absolutely flogg the opposition and also cost about 17 grand. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 You have to be very careful about setting a minimum weight too high! Look at the ridiculously high minimum that the F18 set theirs at, with the same reasons given (keeps the price low???) and it is now apparent that the F18's could be made much, much, lighter at no extra costs and without using "exotics". It is one of the greatest factors of contention and of restriction that the F18 face at the present. A minimum weight for an F14 at present can EASILY be obtained at about 70 Kg's all up sailing weight (less sails) without trying to strive for the "lowest obtainable", Berny's 430 is around that weight now and there are no "exotics" used by him. We have produced a 4.3 Alpha prototype with aluminum mast boom etc and with a chop strand matt and polyester resin layup with a "coremat" core laminate and the all up sailing weight of that was 61 Kg's, and that was without even looking at "conserving" weight, the object was to just "get it in the water" to test it's performance potentual. The "A" class cats are 18 ft long with a 30 ft mast and they all come in way below their minimum "all up" sailing weight of 70 Kg's?? and with the every increasing difficulties and cost increases in obtaining aluminum masts, I feel quite positive that in the near future ALL masts will be carbon fibre and not even considered "exotic". You have to allow some sort of latitude for "future development", particularly when it comes to the minimun weight, just look at the weight difference between the Windrush 14 when it was first made and the weight of the last ones made, -and the overall measurements never actually changed - just the weight, the first couple of years they were the weight of "a Sherman tank" by comparison with their last weights. So it should be apparent that in time the weights will naturally come down just by better construction methods with the same product materials. I personally feel that a minimum weight of 55Kg's for an F14 is by no means "to light" and by setting anything higher than that would very soon retard the formula in its development, after all the class has to be "attractive" for potentual NEW sailors to commit to it and together with "cost" the two most attractive selling points for a new cat are "exciting performance" and "light weight"! The last two points will way out sell more boats than the pricing. Darryl J Barrett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Take a look at the sailing weights of the paper tigers and the arrows! They have both had weights at around the 55 to 60 Kg (or less) for years and years without it affection the price of getting them in the water. Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted August 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 I agree with you, and was only commenting that we have to be careful. I would love a 45kg 14 footer that I could carry by myself down the beach on my shoulder. I could do that with a moth I once had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 I just had this horrible "vision" of you walking down the beach with this 45Kg moth on you shoulders beating it's wings and trying to suck out your eyes with its long proboscus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 What about a material restriction? I am sure we can build a 14ft cat down to 55kgs but what does that include? if it's inclusive of all the rigging ie a sailing weight then I think you will be forced to used more expensive materials to achieve this weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted August 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Another excellent point, but materials change in price, and what is expensive today could be cheap in a couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Macca we got down to an ALL UP sailing weight for the proto' 4.3 Alpha, of 61Kg's and that was with standard stainless steel rigging, aluminum mast, boom, dacron sail, standard polyester resin and E glass - nothing different from the way any standard Mari cat, Windrush, or Hobie is "put out on the market", and that was not trying to minimise any weight in it's manufacture. I know that if we took a few simple steps in the lay up of the hulls rudders and dagger boards, and still useing all the "standard materials" we could put a cat on the water at around 55 Kg's (that is without the spinnaker and spinnaker fittings, as we haven't settled on the final arrangement of that as yet) so although we have opted to go for carbon fibre for the final production Tora, if anything we will have to bring it "up" to minimum weight. The reasons that we have gone for carbon fibre is not primarily for weight saving but more with an eye to the future when, as I have said before, that that is the way that I see the market heading, particularly with the way that Carbon Fibre and Kevlar have reduced in price over the last few years and will continue to drop as more is used. Besides Carbon looks real "sexy" and the price difference of the finished cat is not that much different from the so called "non exotics" Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted August 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 So you are telling me that if I get a carbon Tora, as it looks sexy, I will be pulling all the chicks down at Balmoral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 The only chick you will be puling is your soon to be wife... But the Carbon Tora will impress the guys as long as it is clear finished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted August 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 I am not wanting to impress the guys you idiot. I had a clear moth and it was a nightmare after the first season as it showed every little mark on it, and I had plenty. I think one day I hit every moored boat on the way to the start. I am better now. Last regatta I only got tangled up with Macca between races. [This message has been edited by Emmessee (edited 05 August 2004).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Geees!! it sounds like you Macca and you Emm are the two that should be getting "engaged"!! (ARRHHh what an ugly mental picture that brings to mind??) Parts of the Tora will be "clear" but the hulls are "coloured" gel coat. Thats purely for "wear" and "UV" protection, if they were clear then they would have to have a coating of poly urethane to protect the resin from UV break down and the separate preparation and coating with poly urethane of the hulls out of the mould would add upwards of $1000 (or more) to the cost of the hulls alone and the wear resistance wouldn't be as good as the gel coat any way. Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 But clear carbon looks way cool!! And Matty may be looking for a new partner after last night anyway He was a man in very much trouble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted August 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 It was a very noisy and chilly night at my place last night. It would have been warmer and quieter if I slept out in the maricat in the street. I like the look of the carbon, but it is not very practical as it gets very hot and breaks down in the weather unless treated properly and that is exxy. I suppose if someone wanted to spend the extra cash Darryl would do a clear finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 The interior of my new car is clear finish carbon, I hope to hell it stands up to the sun, otherwise services will be exxy if they include a full respray of the interior trim, at Audi prices that will be the GDP of a small African nation... I think that having some bits in clear finish look great, There is no point in doing the hulls as they will look shit after a season's use. But things like the beams and mast and some fittings would look cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted August 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Are you sure that your new car is not plastic that looks like carbon that they whack in the Monaro???? My dash is exotic 100% plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Mate, it is carbon, Audi don't skimp on that stuff, unlike thouse cheapskates from Porsche... Besides I wouldn't be able to buy a car with fake carbon, I believe it is against my religon or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 We make a lot of internal custom carbon and 50/50 carbon/kevlar car parts for guys who want to "dress" up their vehicles (particularly the dash), and after we have moulded them we prepare them and they are painted with a clear two pack (proper, not some imitation that most crash shops try to pass off as urethane) poly urethane. The poly urethane supplies a complete protection against UV break down and adds a VERY hard surface that wears very well. The same can be done with a cat, but as I said it adds a disproportionately high cost (and time) to the boat, besides if you have ever had a black set of hulls and sailed it in clear sunlight in the middle of summer you would never have another one, (I still have the burn scars on my thighs to prove the point) Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted August 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 I do not want to have to think about your thigh thanks mate. Nacra said they will probably stick to a glass boat as it is most cost affective and they can probably do it at close to a minimum weight, whatever that may end up. They also just put out two Maricat foam sandwich hulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 When we are into full production with the Tora, we are looking at the option of doing the hulls in a variety of different laminates I.E one laminate carbon fibre with foam core and one laminate with e glass, or all e glass with polyester resin, and later down the track I think we may go "pre preg" epoxy carbon with "nomex" core and the whole thing "baked". There are a lot to be said for the time savings in the later option and by keeping the weight of the finished cat at the mnimum allowed for the formula, whatever the lay up, the main differences in the lay ups will only be in the relative prices. If we can produce a set of hulls at minimum weight with the lowest cost materials without sacrificing any of it's performance then it is a good (price) option, but there will always be people who want the "highest tech" available, regardless of the price, simply to "have the best". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Any way WHATS WRONG WITH MY THIGHS! (are you being sexist??? I thought that you lived in the "gay" capital of the world up there in Sid en knee) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted August 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 I am a raving hetrosexual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 The problem is Darryl that when the ultralight carbon boat kick the ars of all the other heavier Toras and 430's etc. the heavier boats will immediately become obsolete, end of competition. I don't see any advantage in making the standard F14, the lightest most expensive boat. Only the few cashed up rev heads will be able to afford it which defeats the whole purpose of 14ft racing. So far it looks like the 430 is out because it's going to be too heavy at 75k's and it's vac bagged E glass/carbon/epoxy foam sandwich and built with many weight saving concepts but would sell for about $12,000. Who's going to spend those sorts of $$$$ on a 14ftr??? What selling price do you anticipate the full carbon version Tora might be? Looks to me like the whole thing's dead in the water before it even gets going. Good luck with it anyway. Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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