F14 association web page

[Darryl J Barrett]

The F14 association has a web site up and running (sort of)

try this link

http://www.formula14.yachting.org.au/

[berny]

Great start although it seems mainly to feture the AO

You might like to visit http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4286759015 for some other interesting 14ft pics

[Darryl J Barrett]

Berny,

check out the F14 web page photo's!

I hope it's OK by you that there are photo's of your 430 now there as a "potentual" F14?

When you have some shots of it under spinnaker I would love to post them

Darryl

[berny]

Not at all, I'm happy to be included.

I'm about to order the kite. I've got some prices from Geoff Adams and Ian MacDiarmid. Just need to firm up on the dimensions. Can't wait!

Still thinking about your launcher. I've got some ideas which would require some mods to the one you're using and I'm not sure that buying yours is my most economical option albeit the most convenient. How long would it take for you to make one for me in glass/polyester?

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 10 November 2005).]

[Darryl J Barrett]

It doesn't take much time to make an actual chute Berny, what takes the time for a "one off" is making the plug and the mold, so much so that the prelim' work makes "one off's" fairly prohibitive.

[berny]

Originally posted by Darryl J Barrett:

It doesn't take much time to make an actual chute Berny, what takes the time for a "one off" is making the plug and the mold, so much so that the prelim' work makes "one off's" fairly prohibitive.

No I don't want a 'one off' I'm talking about a std. shute, how long?

[berny]

Darryl, having been in engineering construction and manufacturing all my life, and having designed and built ALL the plugs including the hull for the 430, and personally building all the spars and rigging and assembling the complete boat on my own I'm pretty familiar with the 'one off' prototype process and the costs involved. I'm guessing (I've never been game to calculate the real costs) that the 430 cost me conservatively around $100,000 and a squillion in stress. But it was fun..............sort of.

[Darryl J Barrett]

To layup and finish off one of our "chutes" Berny would take about two days - actual time - They are layed up on a male mold then joined off the mold and the pole "supports" are molded and glassed on afterwards.

[Darryl J Barrett]

I find it a little puzzling, why there haven’t been a few more “existing” 14’ cats set up a spinnaker on their cats? The Mari in NSW that fitted a kite last season has shown just how dramatically it improves it’s time around the course, and gives any skipper a more exciting and expanded race potential, and, at the minimum of cost. So where has that “pioneering” sailing spirit gone? Have all the cat sailers just grown old and given up their desire for “new horizons” as well as that wondrous sense of adventure.

When cats were “the new kid on the block” any one who sailed one seemed to be searching for something new, something more exciting, they wanted to experiment and “push the boundaries”. Now it seems that they are more content to just go along with what they know and have grown comfortable with. Wake up and rekindle that feeling of being leaders again and not just some other “old fart” that used to be some one exciting a long time ago. Life is to short to waste it on dreaming of the past, if you can do it, do it now, remember that you are a long time dead,

[cj]

I think the time going into rigging cost ect and actually having a club that run a course that a kite would be that much of an advatage are all factors.

Take the mari for example we leave our boats in the boat yard with mast up , pull main up and of u go.

Exciting? nothing more exciting than close racing with same boats and rigging rather than being half a lap faster and sailing by urself with a kite.

If i wanted to go faster then i would just buy a faster boat, or even better yet crew on a bigger boat and let someone else pay the costs:P

At the end of the day when it comes to racing if you have 10 boats all withing 2 minutes of you then that makes for great racing regardless of how fast your going.

[mal gray]

Darryl, I have yet to see a Hobie 16 with a spi convincingly beat standard Hobie 16s. A standard 4.9 seems to be as quick as a spi 4.9. The 5.8s struggled with spinnakers. It doesn't seem to work, just adding a spi to a boat that wasn't designed for it.

[Darryl J Barrett]

The real "joy" of life is in the journey, not the destination. If we never try we never achieve. It just seems to me that there are a lot of former "tear arse, go getter, experimenters" who were willing to "try anything at least once" that seem to have settled into a comfortable "rut" and are not only NOT willing to TRY, but are also over critical of any suggestions of "new" outlooks that may just "rock" their cosy little cocoon?

Stir yourselves guys and do some thing different while you are still able to, time waits for no one.

[Dave]

Darryl,

I can see the attraction, but I prefer one-design racing. Maybe the lack of 'take-up' of F14 shows that most other small cat sailors think the same way.

Personally, I would much rather see if I could win amongst a fleet of 50 Paper Tigers, knowing that if I was first over the line I really deserved it, than beating the same fleet because I used a kite.

While experiencing sailing a boat with a kite is definitely enjoyable, it seems most people prefer a good race than a huge victory because of superior equipment. The buzz experienced from a close fought battle over the whole course with a handful of other boats of the same design is hard to match. When that handful becomes 40 or 50 boats, it really is fantastic.

I am sure no one is actually knocking the path you and guys like Bern are taking, it is just that they are voting with their feet. It seems the numbers of the one-design classes are growing. At Mannering Park, there were 53 14ft cats and I don't think any were of the F14 approach.

I have written the odd letter to editors about the battle of one-design versus development. To sum up my opinion, they both enrich the sport of sailing, both have their place and both attract different people for different reasons. What we don't need is one side thinking they are superior to the other.

Don't forget that the reason you have rules around F14 is so that they remain somewhat 'similar', otherwise the racing would be 'unfair'. This is just why a one-design sailor sails a one-design! And the reason you have written such an emotional plea is because you want more people to become involved in the sailing you enjoy so that you can enjoy the racing more. Again, this is exactly what one-design sailors love about one-design fleets - more boats!

So, keep up the good work, and keep letting us know how it's going, because development is always interesting. But don't start knocking those who don't see it the same way you do.

Dave.

[berny]

I think it's a good thing we have some newer high tech. boats being campaigned to possibly engender some renewed interest in cat racing generally. The F18 has done a good job in Europe and to some extent here but there isn't a lot of effort being made to attract new *young* sailors to cat racing.

By contrast, mono sailors put lots of time and energy into enticing young people to sail and in so doing provide a continuous supply of new sailors to fortify their ranks. And there are a number of modern high tech. boats to encourage the youths.

Cats on the other hand, in the main, do precious little to encourage the youth. Basically cat sailors simply turn up to a regatta, race and go home, end of involvement.

I well understand Darryl's frustration but really, the problem isn't so much with the folk here. Most 14ft cat sailors race at club level and do what they can to promote cat sailing generally. In contrast, the bigger cat sailors, F18, Taipan, A, Tornado sailors seem to race regattas almost exclusively.

I don't think me saying this will change anything but I needed to say it nonetheless.

[TornadoSport260]

Just a question ... Who in their right mind would purchase a 14ft Cat for $17,000+??? The existing 14ft Cat Classes should be modernised to attract youth (dinghy youth) to Cat sailing. Like $11,500 for a Windrush 14ft is more like it but $17,000 ... are u trying to attract only rich and their children to 14ft Cat racing???

Your barking up the wrong tree. I understand how youth cat racers feel because i've been there done that and my first boat (Windrush 14ft) cost $500 and I now sail Tornado's and have been a member of Yachting Australia's Australian Youth Sailing Team on Hobie 16 Spi's. $17,000 is too expensive for youth which is what the 14ft Associations should be focusing on as it is the future of the sport. Look at the age of existing cat sailors across all classes the percentage of under 25yr sailors to the baby boomer generation is absolutely minimal.

For $17,000 you can purchase a brand new Hobie 16 Spi, be elegible for selection to the Australian Youth Sailing Team and still have cash left over.

Focus on youth... they are the future of the sport.

NO YOUTH, NO FUTURE CAT SAILING

[berny]

You miss the point TS260. There are already plenty of cheap 14ft boats to choose from if your wish is to sail a very basic low cost one design cat. There'd be no point putting another one on the market. What is missing is an equivalent of the 29er, or 12ft skiff.

The idea behind Darryl's boat is to provide something a serious young cat sailor might aspire to, after learning the basics on a Windy, Hobie or Maricat, without having to go to a larger and considerably more expensive boat like the Tornado. The hope is that the F14 will become an international class where younger, less cashed up cat sailors can race a modern high tech., very fast cat at a reasonable cost compared to the F18, Tornado etc.

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 11 December 2005).]

[Darryl J Barrett]

If you think that's a "high" price, check the cost of a new Windrush super sloop in full racing condition (plus GST which isn't included in their price list) When you add up all the necessities from their price list to come up with the complete cost to actually get the boat "on the water ready to race" you may be a little surprised.

[TornadoSport260]

A new Windrush 14 is $11,500 as my dad just recently purchased one (Dec. 04). Though you can buy a good second hand Windrush for $2000 and spend $5000 on hulls and u basically have a new boat anyway.

Your missing the point here though. For $17k a young cat sailor can sail a Hobie 16 Spi and race for Yachting Australia, get into government funded squads (reducing the cost to the sailor and increasing their skills ten fold) and travel the world and compete in fleets of 30 boats minimum both here and overseas.

You can't compete with a class like a Hobie 16 for the youth market in Aust. unless you can build cheaper boats.

[ZAX]

New Site looks great.. love the pics they are inspiring.

There is also the option to spend $4000 on a set of new maricat foam sandwich hulls - cheaper than a windrush and very well built by Brisbane Catamarans.

The increased cost for the foam sandwich construction over glass is 19%. Although this does not give anywhere near the standard of Daryl's craft it is still a reasonably inexpensive entry point to sailing 14ft Catamarans. There are numerous maricats around with good gear/new sails and old heavy hulls just waiting for this upgrade. Most of the fleet has hulls over 20 years old.

cheers !

[berny]

Yes but look what you get for your dollars. The Hobie 16 is a very old, very heavy, TWO person boat with very old technology and it is the ONLY option a young cat sailor has to participate. I happen to think that given the options young mono sailors have, it's a pretty pathetic situation.

What is wrong with a second option anyway?

Berny

[TornadoSport260]

Whilst the Hobie 16 might be old it is a very competitive fleet in Australia being extensivly marketed to sailors in Aust. compared to every other cat class.

Look at Lasers they havn't been redesigned since they were originally designed and they are the world largest and most competitive fleet. Its not about whether the boat is old or heavy its more about the fleet and its competitiveness with a dash of price thrown in. The Hobie 16 has an established class and youth are getting into it in increasing numbers because of the recognition the class has with ISAF and YA and the established second hand market.

From one sailor to another your barking up the wrong tree.

What you should be focusing on rather than creating a new class is creating a regimented structure of class progression in Cat Sailing. The dinghy classes have been doing it for years. You start in Sabots then move to Flying Ants or Flying Elevens then to 420's or 29ers and on to bigger and better things. Cat Sailing in Australia needs a class progress such as this. Start in existing 14ft classes then to Taipans or Hobie 16's and then into F18's and possibly Tornado's.

[berny]

TS260;

Compared with small cats, the Laser is a reasonably modern design employing sound design principals whereas the small cats you mention, and including the H16, are all asymmetric, hire fleet dinosaurs.

The difference with your two scenarios is that in the mono ranks there are any number of *nice* reasonably modern high performance single handers to choose from when sailing at club, national and international level. In contrast, you've got young cat sailors starting in 14ft hire boats and going from there to the Tiapan which is both a quantum leap in terms of performance and cost, and from there to the very expensive F18 or the completely outrageously expensive Tornado and none of these national / international classes being an easily managed single hander with kite.

You need to stop putting crap on people who are prepared to put good money and lots of effort into trying to develop new boats to bring cat sailing for younger sailors into the 21st century.

Incidentally, how much is a new Taipan these days?

[Darryl J Barrett]

I think you are "confusing the issue, sure the established classes have their fleets and there is good competition within those "major" fleets, but, it almost sounds as if you are advocating that any and all changes and or advancements in design and use of "new" technology is some thing that should be resisted. Any new cat (or dingy) that is developed and marketed is rarely an "instant threat" to the established classes sailing, they are just that - new - and the public and time will be the decider as to whether or not they will be "successful". If every one was content with the "status quo" there would be no Hobie class (they were the “new” class only a relatively short time ago) and we would still all be sailing solid timber dinghies with canvas sails. If new things are never tried we don't just stand still, we accelerate backwards.

[TornadoSport260]

A laser is by no means modern, in no way shape or form have you seen one recently? The only two modern item on a Laser is the carbon tiller and the cunningham/vang arangement.

I am also not trying to put crap on you Berny. I used to sail against you back in the day when you still sailed real 14ft cats and first came to Koonawarra with the 430 at the 14ft Regatta their.

Small Cats are not all asymmetric hire fleet dinosaurs. Have you seen a new windrush 14ft? Foam Sandwich hulls, Carbon Tiller Cross Bars, Radial Cut Mylar Sails far from the original cruising dacron standard. Redsigned rudders. I'd say that that is not a hire fleet dinosaur.

A Sabot is no more modern than a new 14ft cat and can cost upto $7k new.

And Kids just dont jump from your "14ft hire fleet cats" to Taipans a) The performance wise is large and also financially there is a larger gap. However a 16ft Hobie that is ISAF RECOGNISED and SUPPORTED BY YACHTING AUSTRALIA is the next step. Then to Taipans and so on. In this respect your F14 at $17,000 fits in here along side an $18000 Taipan. Performance wise a Hobie 16 Spi would be easily on par with an F14 and a Taipan would beat it easily.

Also how do you expect a youth sailor to be able to purchase an F14 at $17,000?? I am 19 and have to full financial support of both my parents that early good salaries and I could just afford to purchase my Tornado at $14K after selling my H16 Spi for $9500. So how do you expect youth to be able to afford such a high priced boat??

Also a youth would have a hard time sailing a one man boat with a spi until they were 16 or older in which case they would be thinking of selection for the ISAF Youth World Titles in Hobie 16 Spi's or the newly selected boat that will take the Hobie 16's place as the ISAF Youth Boat in years to come.

As for your thoughts Darrel I never suggested that you should not make advancements in technology within classes or new classes. I am suggesting, from a Sports Marketers perspective that a youth cannot afford a $17,000 high tech F14.

Why not change existing 14ft Cat classes to suit the F14 rules without the expensive technology to actually make it affordable for a youth. I know Mal Gray suggested that just adding stuff does not necessarily make it better. But is that the point? You can make them easier to sail, modernise them more than they already are and my them more interactive to sail, hence making them more attractive to youth sailors.

A youth sailor is drawn to a spinnaker, on this I agree. However their parents are not drawn to a $17,000 price tag.

These are just my thoughts from both an elite youth athletes perspective and a sports marketer perspective. Feel free to disagree just dont ask my to write you a marketing plan.

[TornadoSport260]

A Laser is by no means modern, in no way shape or form, have you seen one recently? The only two modern item on a Laser is the carbon tiller and the cunningham/vang arrangement.

I am also not trying to put crap on you Berny. I used to sail against you back in the day when you still sailed real 14ft cats and first came to Koonawarra with the 430 at the 14ft Regatta there.

Small Cats are not all asymmetric hire fleet dinosaurs. Have you seen a new windrush 14ft? Foam Sandwich hulls, Carbon Tiller Cross Bars, Radial Cut Mylar Sails far from the original cruising dacron standard. Redesigned rudders. I'd say that that is not a hire fleet dinosaur.

A Sabot is no more modern than a new 14ft cat and can cost upto $7k new.

And Kids just dont jump from your "14ft hire fleet cats" to Taipans, performance wise there is a large gap and also financially there is a larger gap. However a 16ft Hobie that is ISAF RECOGNISED and SUPPORTED BY YACHTING AUSTRALIA is the next step. Then to Taipans and so on. In this respect your F14 at $17,000 fits in here along side an $18000 Taipan. Performance wise a Hobie 16 Spi would be easily on par or faster than an F14 and cheaper and a Taipan would beat it easily.

Also how do you expect a youth sailor to be able to purchase an F14 at $17,000?? I am 19 and have the full financial support of both my parents that early good salaries and I could just afford to purchase my Tornado at $14K after selling my H16 Spi for $9500. So how do you expect youth to be able to afford such a high priced boat??

Also a youth would have a hard time sailing a one man boat with a spi until they were 16 or older in which case they would be thinking of selection for the ISAF Youth World Titles in Hobie 16 Spi's or the newly selected boat that will take the Hobie 16's place as the ISAF Youth Boat in years to come.

As for your thoughts Darrel I never suggested that you should not make advancements in technology within classes or new classes. I am suggesting, from a Sports Marketers perspective that a youth cannot afford a $17,000 high tech F14.

Why not change existing 14ft Cat classes to suit the F14 rules without the expensive technology to actually make it affordable for a youth. I know Mal Gray suggested that just adding stuff does not necessarily make it quicker. But is that the point? You can make them easier to sail, modernise them more than they already are and make them more interactive to sail, hence making them more attractive to youth sailors. Speed is also not a necessary improvement a Windrush 14ft S/S is still faster than a 29er.

A youth sailor is drawn to a spinnaker, on this I agree. However their parents are not drawn to a $17,000 price tag.

These are just my thoughts from both an elite youth athletes perspective and a sports marketer perspective. Feel free to disagree just dont ask my to write you a marketing plan.

[This message has been edited by TornadoSport260 (edited 13 December 2005).]