F14 association web page

[Darryl J Barrett]

Just a few brief points in reply. Firstly, the Formula 14 is just that - a formula - meaning that anyone can build a cat to within the dimensions of the box rule and race within that formula. This doesn’t mean that it has to be built from so called "high tech" materials to be competitive, prime examples. Taipans built from ply are equally competitive with the highest tech ones from Goodal. Also similarly Mosquitoes, Paper tigers, Arrows, etc, so an F14 can be built at a low cost and be competitive just as easily. Secondly, you may have a liking for the Hobie 16 but I can assure you, completely backed up from many authenticated results that there is no way that a Hobie 16 (YV yardstick 81.5) has come within coee of the performance of the Alpha Omega F14 around any type of race course (even sailing the F14 without the spinnaker). We are not talking small margins here but massive time differences. When it comes to the Taipan, the new yardstick that has just been posted by Yachting Victoria for the F14 (based on a full range of race results) puts the F14 at 77 (and some other classes would like to see that as low as 74), The Taipan cat is 76.5, that is not what I would call "beating it easily" (this rated performance of comparison to the Taipan was gained by direct competition against a national champion in Taipans - Daren Peters). So By your logic, if the performance of the Taipan and the F14 are so similar, shouldn’t their price be of a similar value? Lastly, who ever said that the Alpha F14 was aimed at beginner, youth, or occasional weekend sailors? This is an F14 catamaran designed to be at the very top end of it’s size potential performance, to try to categorise it as a “youth trainer” or similar is like saying that “P” plate drivers should all buy formula one racing cars and “burn rubber”. That’s my personal opinion I hope I haven’t offended anyone, so now I will “shut up”.

[berny]

TS, there's a chalenge for you, write the marketing plan for F14. I think you could do it easily if you concentrated on the positives rather than the negatives. Give it a go, you might surprise yourself.

Bern

P.S. will you be at Koonawarra in Feb?

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 14 December 2005).]

[TornadoSport260]

No Berny I wont be at Koonawarra in Feb as I sail Tornado's. However I do happen to be the NSW Windrush State Champ and am competing at the Nationals in Chelsea this season. I will decline your offer to write a Marketing Plan for the F14 Class.

Darrel, Berny suggested that the class would be aimed at attracting youth "I think it's a good thing we have some newer high tech. boats being campaigned to possibly engender some renewed interest in cat racing generally. The F18 has done a good job in Europe and to some extent here but there isn't a lot of effort being made to attract new *young* sailors to cat racing.

By contrast, mono sailors put lots of time and energy into enticing young people to sail and in so doing provide a continuous supply of new sailors to fortify their ranks. And there are a number of modern high tech. boats to encourage the youths.

Cats on the other hand, in the main, do precious little to encourage the youth. Basically cat sailors simply turn up to a regatta, race and go home, end of involvement.

I well understand Darryl's frustration but really, the problem isn't so much with the folk here. Most 14ft cat sailors race at club level and do what they can to promote cat sailing generally. In contrast, the bigger cat sailors, F18, Taipan, A, Tornado sailors seem to race regattas almost exclusively.

I don't think me saying this will change anything but I needed to say it nonetheless."

If your F14 is as fast as you say then how do you expect an Arrow or Paper Tiger to be of equal performance?

[Darryl J Barrett]

Why would anyone expect an Arrow or Paper Tiger to compete with an F14? That just isn’t the point of the exercise, the cats that we are competing with, head on, are the F18’s, A class, Taipans, 5.8 Nacra’s, etc. Would you expect a Tiger moth to compete with a Cessna of the same relative size?

Some years ago the Sundance association bought Arafura cadets to try to encourage youths to “come and sail” cats free of charge. This was actively promoted everywhere cats were sailed here, but over a five-season period the actual results were dismal. If you have any “practical” ways of “encouraging” youths to come and sail cats, please become pro active and don’t do as so many others do – point out the decline of cat numbers sailing and say that “someone” (else) should be doing something about it. The hard truth of the matter in Australia is that if any manufacturer designs and builds on a production basis, the least expensive small “youth” cat that they could, and spend the money trying to promote it, it is still going to retail at a price that would be out of the financial range that most parents are prepared to spend on their kids. That is unless the manufacturer took a huge gamble and set up for “thermal plastic” cats, which would require an investment upwards of (or more than) the million-dollar mark. Not enough sales – bankruptcy -!!

Times have changed, years ago a father would spend the winter building a ply cat from plans at home for his kids to sail next summer. Unfortunately that just doesn’t seem to happen now, and when those home build cats were being built in good numbers, there was always a ready supply of cheap second cats available for entry level sailers.

With the decline in the sales of new cats over recent years, there has also been a huge decline in the numbers of second hand cats on the market, and the difference in the second hand price for a cat and the price for a new cat of the same class is enormous, so without the readily available “cheap” entry level second hand cats, of course there will be an ever decreasing number of “new” people coming into cat sailing.

So you have asked a lot of the difficult questions, what solutions can you offer, and what are you personally prepared to do about it?

All that I (and Berny) have done is to commit rather large sums of money to produce two newly designed cats that we have “put out there” into the market place. I would say that was a fairly large personal commitment, and then we are being criticised for trying to “introduce “ the wrong type of cats into the wrong market place? That puzzles me enormously; it is as if people within the sport would rather voice their pessimism about the number decline of cats than do anything about it.

I would just like to see a few more people who say that they are committed to cat sailing make some sort of practical personal commitment, perhaps then the decline in cat sailing just may reverse itself.

[TornadoSport260]

So your answer to the decline in cat sailing is to go and produce a 14ft Cat that costs $17,000?? How is that going to entice people into cat sailing?? Especially the market that needs to be targeted YOUTH??

You want to know what I think needs to be done?? Well instead of creating new classes get experienced cat sailors to go to coastal schools with coaching qualifications, once a month and get the kids to come out and go sailing on cats. Governments would actually put money behind a program such as this. Once the kids have got a taste for cat sailing they will pressure their parents into being allowed to become regular sailors. A program such as this would need the involvement of YA, Coaches, Sponsors and Experience Cat Sailors. This actually get kids sailing. It also potentially gets dinghy kids into cats.

[Darryl J Barrett]

You keep saying that I produced the Alpha F14 to try to get a share of the youth market, or to try to engender more interest in 14' cat sailing or words to that effect. I am not sure where you got that idea from but it wasn't any idea of mine and you didn’t get it from me, and it definitely has nothing to do with trying to address the declining numbers of cats sailing. Our decision to design and built the Alpha Omega F14 was never guided by any such noble desires, primarily it was to see just how high a performing 14' cat we could put in the water and sail for our own pleasure.

If other people would like to sail at this level as well and want to buy one of our cats, all well and good, if they don't, that’s still OK by us. But, you have to admit that as a result of us putting the Alpha F14 in the water the general interest in cat sailing in general and 14’ in particular has definitely been raised just a little, even if only as an unintended by product.

You keep throwing the final price up at us (ready to sail without spending another cent on it, and including GST) as if it was some sort of “nasty” thing. Well I think of it a little like a Porsche, if you like it and can’t afford it you don’t have one. If you can afford one but don’t like it you don’t buy one. But if you like it and you can afford it then you go out and buy it. No one is ever “forced” to purchase, the choice is his or hers, and I am completely happy with that.

[HooD]

Originally posted by TornadoSport260:

These are just my thoughts from both an elite youth athletes perspective and a sports marketer perspective.

Elite or elitist????

Krikee you get full marks for being a young upstart!

okies just a few points from a slightly older perspective.

you guys keep harping on about the decline in cat sailing, yet all I see around me is growth and enthusiasm. plenty of youth getting into 14 and 16 footers even some 19's! Our sister cat club currently enjoys the same surge in popularity.

Anyway I fail to see how Daryls boat has any positive or negative impact on cat sailing? Personally I love the concept and one day may even get one.

17k for a new boat that is all carbon and high tech seems cheap, A new windrush 14 is about 13k at the moment by the time you buy the racy bits and its not a patch on the AOF14.

Mr Tornado260, do you think your boat is competative at top level? cause its straight out not. a new Marstom T with all the trimmings costing quite a few times the price of a new F14 would leave you in the dust.

my 2c inc gst and ready to race:P

this is from the guy who has watched his local fleet grow 400% in 3 short years, hows yours going?

[TornadoSport260]

"If you have any “practical” ways of “encouraging” youths to come and sail cats, please become pro active and don’t do as so many others do – point out the decline of cat numbers sailing and say that “someone” (else) should be doing something about it. The hard truth of the matter in Australia is that if any manufacturer designs and builds on a production basis, the least expensive small “youth” cat that they could, and spend the money trying to promote it, it is still going to retail at a price that would be out of the financial range that most parents are prepared to spend on their kids. That is unless the manufacturer took a huge gamble and set up for “thermal plastic” cats, which would require an investment upwards of (or more than) the million-dollar mark. Not enough sales – bankruptcy -!!" - Darrel

I do know where I am getting the idea of getting youth into cat sailing from and its you. Also I am just letting you know my ideas/thoughts Darrel, take them or leave them but you asked for peoples thoughts.

HooD as for your question I'd say that i was an Elite Youth Athlete. Being in the NSW Institute of Sport Squad. A member of the 2004 Yachting Australia Youth Sailing Team. I say that warrants me to say that I was an elite youth athlete. And the NSWIS would say that I was too.

A Windrush 14ft new ready to sail is $11,500 as my dad bought one in December last year.

I also never said that my boat was competitive as I know its not. Its far from it and I never bought it with the intention of it being competitive. It was purchase merely as a boat to get me into the class to gain experience before I spent more money on a newer boat.

I'd say that clubs I have sailed at in the past have some youth sailing at them. Though not enough.In terms of the decline of Cat Sailing I'm saying that fleets are getting smaller as there is not enough youth to offset the "retirement" of the older sailors in years to come.

[Darryl J Barrett]

All I have to say "T" is that my name is spelt DARRYL not Darrel !!!

It's always nice to get some facts correct.

Merry Christmas all

(I hope that doesn't offend anyone, but who know's, I seem to be on a roll lately)

[MikeDean]

The price of a new "racing" specd Windrush14 given by Tornado620 is on the money. circa $11k. Just go to the Windrush Yachts website to check all the prices.

Given the relative performance (based on yardstick) of the W14 and the AO F14 (at $17k) and comparing prices to other larger high spec cats - I would have thought the AO F14 offered pretty good value for money when compared.

As Darryl says - the buyer has the right to choose.

The conundrum most of us face is (a) convincing ourselves & families that spending this much money on a pleasure activity is warranted and (b) if we do - then we won't have anybody (in 14ft cats) to sail against - which is what we enjoy doing.

Darryl, I think the boat looks brilliant (got your DVD) and I'd love to have one. Just got to resolve items (a) and (b) in the previous para.

NB: I think others should try not to "project" their own wishes for 14 foot cat sailing, youth sailing, old fart sailing or the greater good of mankind - onto this new offering in the market - its simple take it or leave it - or if you feel strongly enough go do something different to solve the problems you see.

If the F14 route has merits it will soon get some momentum (and possibly solve item (b) in the above).

Just my two bobs worth. Merry Christmas.

rgds

Mike

(Windrush14 sailor)

[John Dowling]

I take exception to the statement that "the bigger cat sailors, F18, Taipan, A, Tornado sailors seem to race regattas almost exclusively."

I'm very familiar with the A class sailing scene, having sailed A's and organised many A State and National regattas over the last 24 years. The vast majority of A sailors race on a regular basis at their local clubs with many of them being strongly involved in the day to day running of their clubs. The class also has a hard core of committed racers who attend many regattas both locally and overseas, as well as their local club racing. Just go down to the beach at Lake Cootharaba, Humpybong or McCrae on any race day for instance. I also see many F18's club racing on a regular basis. Rarely see a Tornado though as the class is diminishing - sadly. I wish TornadoSport all the best in becoming competitive. Just remember that the Tornado was born from a formula class and I would suggest that a formula approach is one way to help revive the 14 foot cat. It is working a treat with F18's and the ultimate formula class (A's) are booming along quite nicely despite high cost.

As for Spi's on H16's - clearly the idea of some committee somewhere with no idea of reality. Leave the spi's to the boats that are designed for them rather than stuffing up a boat whose main appeal is simplicity and overbuilt construction.

Merry Xmas (or holidays) and good sailing to all those leaving their club sailing for titles.

[berny]

Yes that might have been a tad unfair as I haven't raced regattas for several years and I'm basically out of touch but I still think there are a lot of cat sailors who do precious little to help sustain club / regatta sailing / racing and even less to encourage young sailors to take up the sport.

Definitely have a great Christmas and a wonderful NY.