Minicat Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 I was recently given the opportunity to be importer/distributor for Inflatable Sailing Catamaran Minicat. I am trying to do some research if it is worth it or not and I thought I would ask on a discussion board like this one for any experience with such crafts. As the title says these catamarans are inflatable and easy to store. The main benefit is that there is no need for a trailer, large storage space, they can be carried along in a caravan (gray nomads) or on a large boat and easily put together when needed. They can be simply folded in a bag and stored away. These catamarans are more family and leisure oriented rather than being a sport boat but they still seem to be quite capable sailing catamaran. There are two basic variants, one 3.1m long and the other 4.2m long with variable sails configuration. It seems they are quite popular in Europe, both on sea and lakes and there is also some interest in the US. More information can be found here www.minicatamaran.eu So my question is: Do you think catamaran like this is suitable for Australia? Do you think there would be demand for boat like this here? Has any of you had any experience with similar craft (good or bad)? Any comments would be much appreciated. Cheers George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 I prefer the Ducky inflatable from the Ukraine, but no-one manufacures them from hypalon,which I would prefer, only PVC. Polymer mirgration will always be an issue, storage environment will dictate lifespan as well. I like the Idea of inflatable catamarans, I did seriously consider buying the ducky 17 for a one off job, but the ministry stopped me. Here is a picture of the ducky 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Change Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 There is of course also the Smartcat, which is another inflatable cat and that one is available in Australia. Ever seen one in the flesh? No, neither have I. That I think says it all about how ready and willing Australians are to accept blow up boats. In Europe and other highly congested areas these kind of boats make some kind of sense due to lack of storage room for a full size glass or timber cat and trailer, thankfully we yet don't have that problem in Australia. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 he there, I have been looking at inflatable boats ans the only requirement is that it fits in the car with out the use of a tailor... or its kinda pointless..... BUT if it was able... then any self respecting sales person could sell them by the crate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minicat Posted March 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Thanks everyone for comments. I am aware of Smartcat and Ducky. Smartcat is somewhat more race oriented than Minicat. I am not sure about Ducky, they seem to be quite big boats. Is there any particular reason why do you prefer Ducky cruiser? It seems that some people did quite a big trips on them. I know there is loads of space in Australia to store full size sailing boat trailer and all unlike in Europe. Still quite a few suburbs around see are being developed with unit blocks and land starts being scarce. Dee, these inflatable catamarans will fit into a car or can be stored in an apartment or garage, but I would doubt that they can be sold in huge numbers. Maybe once every bit of the country is developed ;-) I think you can take them even on a plane if you are adventurous enough. Keep the comments coming! George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Hi George, Without getting to technical, they use a good type of PVC,Valmex, which is of german origin, and the spars are all Duralium, the grade of which escapes me, but it is good lightweight, strong aircraft grade aluminium. They have sport rig options on the boat, gennaker kits. Spare parts catalogues, rapid response email, keen to do business blah blah blah...... Anyone who doubts the strength of the Ducky does so at thier own risk, they are built superbly and finished well. and there are 4 bases to choose from!!!13,15,17, 19!!! They race them throughout eastern europe, lots of great people involved, however, my German and Russian isn't as good as it was, and I'm easily lost in translation. Chock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bad dog Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 I had a Catapult for some years, sailed it on Pittwater for about 5 years, sold it to Qld, I think it sails at Humpybong now (?). This is/was a UK built inflatable with aluminium longitudinal beams above the tubes, and transverse beams. It had rigid poly 'bow boards' and some other neat ideas. Current class website: http://www.catapultcats.com/index.for.boat.html Also a pic of mine on Pittwater, 2006 I think. It was car-toppable - the long beams meant it had to go on the roof. With the gradual demise of the Aussie backyard, there will be a niche for these sorts of boats - but then sailing generally is in demise (sadly - what we gonna do bout that??) - so it may be soime time before you see a return on the investment.conv_231.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minicat Posted March 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hi Cruiser, I was trying to find out bit more about the materials they are using and it seems Ducky and Minicat are quite similar (Valmex, Alluminium alloy etc.) so not much difference there. I cannot comment on build quality but I guess more bases to choose from with Ducky can be appealing. On the other side it seems that once folded they take up more room than Minicat. Have you tried to communicate with some of the other manufacturers (Smartcat, Minicat) as to find out the service? Minicat also have full catalogue of accessories and spares. So really the question is if this kind of product will appeal to the Australian sailor and how to get the word out there? I noticed Laura Dekker (the girl that was going to take on Jessica Simpsons round the world sailing record) made a positive comment about MiniCat so it should not be too bad. Here is the link if anyone is interested it is dated 21-2-2011 http://www.lauradekker.nl/English/News.html George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 An inflatable cat would seem to take longer to rig up than a regular boat, as it's all the usual + inflate the hulls. So, not so good for the regular weekend sailor. The flexible material will induce drag, and the hull shape is less efficient, so it'll be slower than other cats and not good for racing sailors. The one advantage is it can be compacted for storage. So, it's good for people who dont want to sail; just leave the boat in the carport? Or perhaps as a Winnebago accessory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Ducky video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bad dog Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Yep Cruiser, they DO race greyhounds for a reason, and that Ducky is no greyhound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Indeed!!! My father and I were going to do the Lake Eyre thing, and I had no intention of towing a Nacra down there after seeing the condition of the roads, hence the take it in the back of the motor car type catamaran. The ducky 19 or 17 should've done the trick no worries, how ever, now the "indigenous" folk down ther are doing everything in their power to stop us from sailing on the lake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 The Arabunna people have been through a lot. The Beverly in-situ leech uranium mining pumps cyanide into the ground, threatening the drinking water which comes out of the mound springs; somewhat important in the desert. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-situ_leach Western Mining have evicted them from their land: http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/22107 During protests to stop the mine, both Police and mining workers were violent and dangerous, with protesters beaten, blinded and sealed in shipping containers. http://asen.org.au/news/2010/04/19/feral-beverley-uranium-mine-protesters-win-supreme-court-lawsuit/ The Arabunna cite the impact of tourists on Uluru as precedent; where a permanent groove has been worn into the rock by thrillseekers who climb it. That damage is seen is rubbing out the dreamtime stories of the rock, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluru Maybe if "sailors" were kind enough to contact the Arabunna elders and seek permission first, explain that sailing does not pollute and would be respectful to the lake, and even offer them the chance to experience sailing, they'd be more receptive to the idea? More info: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/03/3153694.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 So it was OK for Donald Campbell to blast up and down it, but if we want to sail on it, it's not OK????? I'm sorry, but it is absolute crap. Since when does someone own the Lake? They never had a sense of ownership until some greedy lawyer opened a can of worms with the Wik decision, and they are still arguing in Arurkun, it's worst than the middle east. The aboriginal people I grew up with had no objection to me swimming in their lakes, and would be happy to let me sail on them. Something is wrong here, I sense a hidden agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 The Wik case determined that the land your parents and ancestors lived on, that you were born on, and continue to live on, is actually your land! http://www.nlc.org.au/html/land_native_wik.html I'm suggesting the Arabunna are sick of greedy white people taking everything from them, exploiting anything they can get their hands on, and showing no respect to their culture. The Arabunna people's native title chairman explained, ""I totally disagree with anyone forming a yacht club for a novel appearance just to, you know, entertain their boredom up in that country." Back to the inflatable boat, did you see the episode of Australian Top Gear where they put boats on the roof of old cars and drove to Lake Eyre for a sail? The two cats proved too heavy to drag 200m from the carpark to the water, while a lightweight dinghy won the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minicat Posted March 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Hi tony, Yes please, let’s leave politics out of this for now! I remember seeing that episode of top gear. It seems that for this application, as Cruiser mentioned, the inflatable cat would be perfect. That begs more questions than: What purpose would you buy one of these for? Where would you go sailing on one? Would you consider sailing one by yourself or would it be more for the kids to muck around on? What kind of information/support would you like to have to consider inflatable catamaran? What options would like to have (i.e. accessories)? Is the storage space and transportability (or the lack of) of a standard cat really an issue for you? Would you take it on family holidays with you? I really appreciate your time and input. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NACRAJON Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 I would like a Catapault as a second boat I think an inflatable Catapault cat would be just the thing for a beachcamping trip from Cairns to Thursday Is. Once you get to TI just pack it up and freight it home. If you Google Catapault they have been used for some good cruising trips and appear to have reasonable performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Latin proverb: Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit. Translation: Thus, silence gives consent; he ought to have spoken when he was able to. Excuse me Minicat; I do not consent to ignorant sledging. Kindness and respect would be more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bad dog Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Not sure you can ever leave politics out of a discussion like this - not without denying things that are vitally important to our humanity, no matter which side of the argument you're on. If we are to discuss sailing on Lake Eyre, then the Aboriginal people's wishes are part of that discussion. We could take this and start a new thread... The logic of historical access and of the non-destructive nature of sailing is undeniable, but as tonyquoll said, there are things going on most of us have no idea about. I would love to sail the lake, and plan to if possible. When the Arabunna elder said those things, I initially thought it was a bit stupid. But experience in other areas reminded me there might be a reason, and that part of that is probably raw skin from being dragged through presumption for generations. And sure enough - they have been trodden on too many times, now are starting to say "enough". So maybe instead of fighting for the 'right' to sail, we could spend a bit of time listening, and trying to figure out how to make things better by building relationships - nothing formal, just spending a bit of time, using ears instead of tongues... looking at the lake as something more than just a big body of rare water, maybe asking to be shown it as their country, with all its complexities and stories. I flew over it last year as it began filling - awesome, but disconnected from the experience of walking in it. Back to the thread - Catapult has very reasonable performance! Not the fastest 16' maybe, but no slouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteyak Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 Catapults look great but it seems they are no longer manufactured - that's how I read the association site. They may come up second-hand. I also like Duckys, mainly because they address what I think will be a growing market for inflatables in Australia, the "flying adventure" or expedition market. You can take the smaller versions of these boats almost anywhere pretty quickly by air - they are usually around the 45 - 70 kg weight level, not too bad to air freight. I would get one as a second boat to my small expedition tri, so I can pop over to Tassie in the car (from Vic) or go up north without a trailer in a small car and still have a pretty capable expedition boat. They will never be amazingly fast but very good for covering ground, camp cruising etc - probably better than hard cats in that respect. Ducky seems to be more expedition-oriented than Minicat. There could well be a bunch of aging kayakers intersted in this kind of thing - the Hobie Adventure Island is now sold througout Austrlia but 10 years ago I can tell you ther was absolutely nothing like this (I looked really hard). One of the best selling points I saw on the Ducky site was amazing footage of expeditions in Tierra del Fuego and Greeenland, some in quite strenuous conditions and slamming around in ice floes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madboutcats Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 If you boat on inland waters or on any national park you can't leave really leave the indigenous people out of the discussion. They have currently claimed all the inland waters of Australia, if you want to organise a sailing event in any national park you must get approval from the indigenous people, if they dont say yes you must fund the court case yourself with no help from the national parks. The commodore of the Lake Eyre Yacht club drove from Melbourne to Marree twice to meetings where the Arrabunna who are the current but not original indigenous people didn't bother to turn up. The poor Arabunna that are so worried about boats on Lake Eyre making the spirits cross are the same Arrabunna selling their sacred land to the Roxby Downs expansion so that it can be expanded, $$$$$$Kaching. All crocadile tears. This is not all indiginous people the local Adoriginals that control the area around Lake Killamperpunna where we had the Lake Eyre regatta made it quite clear we were welcome so please dont vent against all indiginous people just the Arabunna. As an individual its in our constitution that you can boat on any navigatable waterway in Australia, no one can stop you on a family trip, you can even camp on the banks of a river at night. The South Australian government need the money from the Roxby Downs expansion so need the Arabunna on side, to do this they will give them Lake Eyre so if you want to sail on Lake Eyre as an individual like we did a couple of months ago on a side trip then you should do it as soon as you can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minicat Posted September 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2011 One of the best selling points I saw on the Ducky site was amazing footage of expeditions in Tierra del Fuego and Greeenland' date=' some in quite strenuous conditions and slamming around in ice floes.[/quote'] Hi Peteyak, it seems the Russians are little bit crazy about their inflatable catamarans (all brands and sizes} and taking them to remote places. There is a whole forum with some really crazy stuff. Here is a link to some amazing pictures from the trip to Greenland. Well worth a look http://bit.ly/qZNqS8 As you mentioned in your post, the most important feature is portability. They can be taken on a plane, when you go camping, traveling or on holidays with kids... On another note: I don't really want to venture into the Lake Eyre sailing vs Indigenous people issue. But there is a Lake Eyre sailing club which has been operating for some time, there was a regatta there few months back with about 30 boats participating... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteyak Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Another look at Minicat My preference is still Ducky but the thought of importing one from the Ukraine puts me off. I think a landed in AU price would be around $4000 for the 13ft Ducky (which is light, quick to put together and unstayed mast). I've had another look at minicat - it is actually pretty cool but a bit more sail area than I'd like for cruising purposes and quite expensive - at 3900 EU I imagine a retail price in AU would be $7000+? Although this is not a fair comparison because the minicat is more like Ducky 15 (which would be $7000+). It seems that Minicat is probably more aimed at the fun/beach market than Ducky. Also not entirely convinced about the twin fins on minicat for cruising - how would they go being dragged onto a rocky beach - would they be a plus or a minus - they might offer some protection to the inflatable hull? Long double fins would induce considerably more drag than a single relatively deep centreboard of similar lateral resistance. There is a question about the duty. I found a customs extract that seemed to indicate duty on inflatable sail boats (specifically) was 5% rather than 30% - that would make a big difference in landed price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minicat Posted October 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 The Minicat is really aimed more at the fun/beach market. In saying that I don't see a reason why you could not take it cruising and than having fun on the weekends just sailing around. With the pricing you are pretty right as well. Unfortunatelly the freight and duty will add fair bit of cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borschelrh Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Smartkat Actually, I live in Hungary and after looking extensively I opted for the Smartkat over the Minicat or Ducky (or Prostar or Grabner). BOth the Minicat and Smartcat appear to be fine boats. The Ducky would have been nice but importing into Hungary would add another 32% to the cost so I went for the Smartkat. It is a very fast and light boat which sails extremely well. It is a bit of a pain to assemble but using a battery powered pump (BST12 KITE) makes the inflation part not so difficult. It is possible to assemble it in around 30 minutes by myself. Disassembly is roughly 15 minutes. I take a bit longer verifying all connections are correct and tight as this boat is extremely dependent on being correctly rigged. Because the floats are inflated to 0.35 BAR it is very rigid and sails very similar to a Hobie 16. The sail area of 9.9 m2 is more than enough in winds between bf 2 and bf 4. Above bf 5 I tend to keep the furling jib furled. I am thinking to add a Code Zero gennaker type sail to increase it's useability in light winds. The sweet spot for me is around bf4. My only problems have been going turtle when capsized and getting the mast stuck in the mud on the bottom. I have added a swim float tube cut in half and mounted to the mainsail top to use as a mast float and so far this has worked well. I live near Lake Balaton and I can put this into the water at any swimming beach. It packs into 2 21 kg bags and weighs 42 kg assembled. It can be taken easily in a car (rear seats down) and also checked as oversize baggage for air travel. I use it from 2 to 3 times a week and have had 4 people on it without any problems (total passenger weight 330 kg). The floats work well and the boat is quite tight. I added the trapeze system which works well although I am still a novice and make the usual mistakes which makes me go swimming a lot. It is easy to right after capsizing and I added a righting line to my kit bag for when this happens. I haven't needed a weight bag yet. The boat sails very well close hauled into the wind and my best speeds are typically at 45 degrees off wind. I have mounted a Garmin Dakota GPS and see speeds up to 20 knots. It is fun to surf the waves going downwind na dit is easy t maintain speed on the waves. As the sail area is 9.9 m2 no license is required but I have been stopped several times to be checked by the police and so far no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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