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Rules - something to chat about, not arguing here.


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So, on Sat at Toukley I found myself in an enviable position, coming up to the first mark on Stbd with Mick, Rodney and Darcy coming in on Port. Mick had overstood the mark and recommended that I had room to tack, which I obediently did.

Now tacking a cat rig and in particular me tacking a cat rig is quite slow but I'd effected the tack (was close hauled) when Rodney came up and gave me a hurry on (I wasn't up to speed). Of course with Mick and Darcy watching like hawk's poor Rodney had no choice but to do a turn which, on Micks recommendation he did at the end of the leg.

OK, so all well and good, however:

1. I could have carried on on Stbd because Rule 18 doesn't apply when one or both boats going to windward have to tack at the mark. It would probably have been better since I might have not completed my tack and therefore not been close hauled when I got pushed so tactically I should have stood on and given Mick cause to keep clear (not something I think he could have done).

2. When you feel the need to do a penalty I understand that it should be done straight away, steering clear of other boats - I think the rules say "promptly" so doing it at the end of the leg is not allowed.

This of course would not have been likely to happen if the courses were Port rounding - there are so many more complications with Stbd rounding.

So, nobody did anything wrong it's just the options that I wanted to bring up. Quite possibly with harder competition things might have been different.

James

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I think you could have called me and I would have had to tack, however I beleive I gave you plenty of room but on saying that, as you have pointed out, your tacking may not be as good as mine. I was under the imprestion that you had to compleate a penalty anytime before the end of the race. Maybe I am wrong and out of order, I am happy to receive coments.

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same thing happened to kersh and myself with jon jay calling stb on the windward mark. we gave him room to tack on the mark but had enough boat speed to sail over him while he tacked. don`t know if our decision was right or if we still should have tacked off letting him gain a big lead over us.

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You may have been in the wrong, and Rod within his rights:

- If Rod had to either luff above close-hauled, or sail the wrong side of the mark to avoid you (Rule 18.3)

- If Rod had inadequate time to keep clear (Rule 15).

Rule 44.2 begins "After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty..." That expression 'as soon as possible' is open to interpretation. For example s.19.1 of the Flora and Fauna Guarantee Act 1992 (Vic) requires Threatened Species Action Statements to be written and implemented "as soon as possible". In some cases this has not yet occurred after species were listed in 1992. My understanding with penalty turns is anywhere on that leg of the course is OK, but I can't find any ISAF ruling on this.

A safe strategy would be to continue on starboard until you were sure you could complete your tack and get underway without impeding any other boats.

Racing Rules of Sailing can be downloaded from: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20092012with2010changes-%5B8222%5D.pdf

To check interpretation, see the ISAF Case Book for 2009-12: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012updatedNov2011-%5B11669%5D.pdf

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I was coming up to the mark on port "at speed", Jim came up on stb and with buoy room, tacked, completed his tack but stalled, Mick was on the outside, I could not come up any more, so the choice was tack in front of the other boats coming up on stb or go for the little gap. I tried to squeeze between Jim and the mark but Jim drifted sideways and to avoid a collision I hit the mark (a nice soft inflated one).

With the crowd bearing down on a reach, I did my penalty turn off the course wide of the wing mark.

There is a chance that Jim was in the wrong and also should have taken a turn, but figured that by the time he unstalled himself that that was penalty enough.

But.....I was in front of Mick at the time and that allowed him the chance to get away !!!!!!!! Oh well...next time.

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There is no bouy room at the windward mark when on opposite tacks, the boat on stbd can tack whenever he sees fit and the port tackers must keep clear (Jimbo was in the right) Rodney hit the mark but cleared it on the correct side he, was required to make a penalty turn, he did this correctly at the earliest opportunity which did not interfere with any other sailor, at the end of the leg, clear of the course, before commencing the next leg, Had Jimbo been in a monohull he would have been deemed to have tacked in Rods water because his sail had not filled on the new course before Rod had to avoid him. This is a grey area for cats (because they often are stationary during the tack)

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Rule 18.1(a) confirms that mark room does not apply "between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward."

However I don't see how that the boat on starboard can tack whenever, due to rules 18.3 and 15 as stated above. These rules in full:

15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY

When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat’s actions.

18.3 Tacking When Approaching a Mark

If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply. The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid her or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side, and

(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her.

The grey area Darcy refers to is covered by Rule 13:

13 WHILE TACKING

After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course. During that time rules 10, 11 and 12 do not apply. If two boats are subject to this rule at the same time, the one on the other’s port side or the one astern shall keep clear.

I would interpret the word "course" to mean to direction that the boat is heading, regardless of speed or sail trim.

The ISAF case book offers this example:

CASE 15

In tacking to round a mark, a boat clear ahead must comply with rule 13; a boat clear astern is entitled to hold her course and thereby prevent the other

from tacking.

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Case 15 doesn't apply as I was the only one on Stbd but there were many other instances when this applied and because of the time that I (and possibly any cat rig) takes to tack was always a consideration (particularly when the big cats came around)

If we'd taken it to the room then there would be a discussion as to whether I had completed my tack, I would say yes, I hadn't stalled (I well know that experience and in this event always have to go backwards to correct the situation) I was going slow though.

I think that doing turns has to be done much quicker than that and there may be instances where that could have gone to the room too.

Oh yes, remember that rule 18 doesn't apply in this situation - I would guess that 18.3 you quote Tony relates to offwind where boats are on different gybes (as I would term it). - odd, I did a post last night with rule references but it ain't there now. Look at rule 18 and its exceptions, when one or both boats have to tack then it doesn't apply.

That missing post also had the terms of penalty turns and it indicates that you have to take prompt action - doesn't indicate the end of the leg but prompt.

Don't have the rules here at work so can't quote from them.

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No bottom line, I just raised it as a discussion point. From what Darcy says I should have been chucked for not spinning but what I should have done is carried on on Stbd (and made you spin!). Because of the light breeze it all happened quite slowly.

Most of the time people tend to ignore stuff like this and generally no-one 'pulls the flag' which means people go on without thinking.

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I really only became more interested because of a couple of incidents in the Careels. I was crewing in a Careel 22 at Canberra and we 'lost' second place in the nationals because I didn't know the rules (neither did the skipper!), in the Careel 18's I hit a mark then rounded it and called stbd on a competitor going to weather (as I went to reround it as per the old rules) - unbeknown to me (at that time) I had done a 360 already (I hit the mark on port (port rounding) then tacked away to clear it, tacked back onto port and then gybed on the bear away) - I noticed last night there is a case in the casebook on it. My next step is to become more vocal (a la Darcy!).

In the old days in the bar we'd get tanked up and then have a shouting match over it - now we have the much more genteel web to do it!

Actually there should be another set coming shortly, current rules cover 2009-12

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Here's a bit more (slow at work today!)

Rule 18 is one of the most confusing pieces, however, from reading through this time at least it would appear definitely that it didn't apply:

18.1 When Rule 18 Applies

Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a

mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However,

it does not apply

(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,

(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the

mark for one but not both of them is to tack,

So I would think that it was just P/S W/L time to tack etc.

On whether you can wait till the end of the race or the leg I would suggest that sailing on for five more minutes would not satisfy the rule (remember here we're not blaming anyone, just discussing the process).

44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties

After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as

possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly

making the required number of turns in the same direction

OK, the other thing I've read is that if the issue is not in the rules or the definitions then you turn to the dictionary for a definition:

Prompt: done, performed, delivered, etc., at once or without delay

would I think mean that this should be done directly after the incident.

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Depending on the size of the fleet, the wind speed, the size of the boat involved, size of the course etc etc it is hard to determine when a penalty turn must be taken, imagine a keel yacht doing penalty turns inside a fleet of manly juniors, hobie 18s and skiffs. Carnage assured. These rules take some working out, I need another coffee.

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Whenever , in this case Tony, means that the stb tack boat does not have to tack untill it is ready to tack, it may overlay a mark by 30/50/100m if it wishes, and any port tacker must give way, but as soon as it commences to tack it has NO rights untill the tack is completed and in this case a port tack boat that is steering to keep clear (pass astern) must be allowed to do so before the stbd tacker begins its tack regardless of where the mark is.

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As far as when a penalty is done promptly, a boat has no rights whilst doing a penalty turn, therefore it is best to be off the course (as Rod was, to leeward of the wing mark) when doing your penalty to avoid infringing another competitor. I am fairly sure (having been subject to many protests, in 15 yrs of Inter Service Sailing) that any protests, about tardiness in doing a penalty turn, in this case would have been dismissed.

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You are right this is covered under rule 18.3. This rule is only turned on if the tack occurred in the 3 boat zone, otherwise if it is outside the zone it is just a Port/starboard/tacking incident.

Tacking in the Zone Rule (R18.3)

Purpose: to discourage late tacks inside the zone

• If 2 boats were approaching mark on opposite tacks, and one tacks** in the zone when the other is fetching the mark:

• Rule 18.2 does not apply. Instead the boat that tacked

 shall not cause the other boat to have to sail above close-hauled to avoid her

 shall not prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side

 shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her

A boat hitting the mark and passing still on the required side while avoiding the offending boat is also exempt from having to reround or do turns and may continue racing.

The offending boat (the one that tacked inside the zone) that caused any of the above must sail of the course and do his turns as soon as it is safe to do so.

http://www.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/ayf/downloads/Technical/RaceManagement/Section%20C%20presentation%20Nov08.pdf

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Not sure if Maricats qualify as threatened species!

However yes I was aware that I could be putting myself in the can, I was sweet talked into tacking by that Mick!, however :

13 WHILE TACKING

After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats

until she is on a close-hauled course.

The wind was real soft but yes, I had tacked and was close-hauled so it was up to Rod to keep clear even though he would have been moving at a faster pace (hence the slow motion ding), we were also bearing off to the new mark so "above close hauled didn't happen".

Rule 18 doesn't apply full stop, 18.1 (b) is applicable, I was on stbd and my proper course was to tack so normal rules apply (P/S etc).

18.1 When Rule 18 Applies

Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a

mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. How-

ever, it does not apply

(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,

(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the

mark for one but not both of them is to tack,

Interesting that there isn't a definition or case regarding the definition of promptly but "as soon after the incident" would indicate a degree of immediacy.

44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties

After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as

possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly

making the required number of turns in the same direction

If the wind was greater then I think I may certainly have pressed on on the same tack, but then when it gets windy (ie over 8 knots) then Mick, Rod and Darcy would have been miles ahead anyway.

And yes, a copy of the rules and casebook on a laptop is always handy, much better than thumbing through the blue book.

J

EDIT: this is the post I meant to post yesterday, it just posted now! hope I haven't broken the context.

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i agree the faster boats should have started first. but that was not the problem on this occasion. stb courses bring this problem on. will talk to race commitee for future events. still grey as to who is in right and no one will be happy after protest, and race commitee still has to sort this out. best not run stb course with more than a small fleet. hope all still enjoyed the w/ end.

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