overpowered upwind

[lindsay s]

Hi everyone

 

I have a problem of being very overpowered upwind. I simply cant pull the main in far enough, so the mainsail backwinds ridiculously 

Should I let the traveler out, bear up/down or something else?

 

Are there any tricks for going upwind and keeping power in the main?

 

Thanks heaps

 

Lindsay Small

Maricat 719, twice as nice

[Pointed Reply]

Best advise is to get to a sailing club where other Maris sail.......see Phil's answer on the other thread.

 

Is your Maricat a 4.3 and is it sail number 719 ?

 

Without seeing the boat and how it is rigged it is difficult to give a good answer.

 

Do you have a 6:1 low profile mainsheet ?

 

As the wind increases you will need to pull on the mainsheet HARD, then start dropping the traveller down,

How far depends on how heavy you are and how strong the wind.

Also as the wind increases pull down the downhaul and outhaul to flatten the sail.

 

Read through the tuning guide, while a little out of date it is mostly still very relevant.

[knobblyoldjimbo]

When you rig next, have a good look at your main.  See how it looks when everything is loose, it should be a reasonable shape - aerofoil, max draft around 1/3 back from the luff.

 

Now, with the traveller pulled into the centre, pull the main in.  Se how the leech tightens and the sail starts to flatten.  Now pull it in tighter and tighter, the main should end up like a board, quite flat but when you're sailing there'll be some shape left.

 

You'll also notice that the mast is bending, this is good as it's taking some of the bag out of the sail.

 

On the water, do the same thing, try it when the wind is lighter.  You'll probably notice that you won't sail fast when the main is in tight but you'll get the idea.  Some call this changing gears.  

 

When the wind is up, let the traveller off, many like this to be down to the hiking straps but also pull the main in.  Tighter and tighter - bear off until the main is pulling (put telltales on both sides about a 1/3 back to tell you that the main is pulling).  Guthrie tufts - google it.  You should find that you go faster and faster.  As you do you might need to bear off because your apparent wind starts to go forward, meaning also that you might need to pull the main in tighter.  If you have the blocks together then you may have to get the low profile blocks that Rodney talks of!

 

Google DN Iceboats and you'll see that their masts are curved so as to flatten the sail more - just the same with Mari's although the speeds aren't as extreme.

[darcy1945]

Lindsay, sounds like the leach of your jib is to tight, jib sheeting angle incorrect, if you have a jib clue plate with multiple holes, move down several holes to ease the tension on your luff, if your adjustment is by track, move the jib car aft. Give me a call on 02 43591729 

[lindsay s]

Hi everyone

 

My mari is sail number 719 which I sail cat rigged. Recently all my sails have been in over 15knots, so I'm having issues holding the boat down with my 60kg. 

Next time I go out I will sheet in hard and trim with the downhaul and traveler until the boat is stable.

 

Thanks

 

Lindsay Small

Maricat 719. twice as nice

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Ok, more from me!  I'm 67kg so understand a bit of what you're going through.  Not sure if Rodney is going to Budgewoi (he'll pretty certainly be at Palm Beach) but he's about the same as you so he'll be a good measure.

 

Just a couple of checks,

a) have you got the mast raked - shrouds are 5m long, forestays are 5.5m, we tuck the rudders under (just a little) to balance the weather helm.  Still go to Budge if you have the original setup but there can be a tendency to go down the mine (barge into the next wave and not come up!) in harder wind when you're reaching.

b) watch the downhaul - not many of the faster sailors use it, why? because it makes it very hard to tack.  Next time you rig pull the downhaul down hard and look at how the mast is bent by the pressure.  Nothing serious but what happens is that the mast won't want to 'tack' and can even get stuck bending in the wrong direction - a boot against the boom usually fixes it but by then you're further back in the fleet.  You won't point as well either.  Try leaving it alone and ignore the shape of the sail.

 

Just another - c) expect to stuff up tacking - I've been sailing Mari's for about 5 years and still regularly stuff up - learn to back the sail to go into reverse to fix yourself up.  I still have a good sail and sometimes do really well!

[darcy1945]

    Lindsay, 60kg is very light for a 4.3, so your sail should be flatter than a sail cut for my average of 100kg, The other lightweights (Rodney and James, Knobbly Old Jimbo) manage to flatten their sails by cutting away the mast base rotation stops, this allows the mast to rotate further so that when you sheet hard on the main, the mast is bending sideways and de powering the sail. (The tension on the leach bends the top of the mast backwards, pushes the centre of the mast forward and flattens the sail)

    Sailing upwind in a blow, with the main sheeted on hard, foot tension on hard, hiking hard, and enough downhaul to reduce weather helm, lower the traveller until you can keep the windward hull just touching the water.

    Batten tension, stiffness, and shape, are also important to sail shape/power. And downhaul/cunningham tension, is important though, as Jimbo says, it can make tacking more difficult.   

[tonyquoll]

Couple of years ago I borrowed Darcy's Maricat "Cheetah" and raced in the Toukley Brass Monkey, where it blew upto 20knots. I had a body mass of 57kg, slightly increased by the two wetsuits, boots, jacket and woolly jumper I had on to deal with the cold.
I had good pointing and speed upwind, by doing this:
- downhaul on pretty much as hard as you can get it. Before the start, sheet in hard as you can to help pull the boom down, cleat it, then pull on the downhaul as much as you can. A system of at least 6:1 is required for the downhaul.

- pull the outhaul tight

- let the traveller go about about 30 - 40cm from the centre. The distance varies with windstrength, but I found on the Mari that going too far prevented good pointing (different on other cats).

- sheet in as hard as you can. In big gusts, if you're strong enough, ease the sheet for about 2 seconds when the gust hits then quickly haul it back in again. Otherwise, ease your pull on the tiller and let the boat round up in the gusts, then pull it again to counter the weather-helm and resume your course. If you don't have the strength to pull it in, round up a little, sheet in, then bear off and fill the sail with the wind. Try to use only the ratcher and not the cleat. Cleating is slow and disastrous.

- when you come out of a tack, stay back near the rear beam until you speed up (otherwise it will round up into the wind unpreventably), then once you're going fast, move forwards so you're fully hiked out with leg against the side-stay

- keep the windward hull flying; this is critical to speed and pointing. Don't be worried; they are almost impossible to tip over sideways (as they tip further, the wind on the sail is reduced, so they naturally come back down again).

- if you keep driving the nose in when going upwind, consider going for more mast rake

 

Darcy's boat came with a massive amount of mast rake, which I stood up a bit more vertical as I had trouble getting under the boom during tacks. Even so, the boom was lower at the back than the front when the sail is centered. Mast rake moves the sail's centre of effort aft, which creates weather helm (the tendency for the boat to round up into the wind). By constantly pulling on the rudders, you maintain a straight course and the rudders generate lift to windwards, which helps pointing. Sitting forwards also assists with this.

 

More recently I borrowed a Mari to sail 2-up, and found the above techniques still applied, though it was harder to move the body mass around as required when you need the crew's cooperation!

 

Good luck

[tonyquoll]

I also recall Pointed Reply telling me how the Maricat mast base can be filed out to allow more mast rotation. Because the mast is stiffer fore & aft then it is side-to-side, more rotation means you can get it to bend more and flatten the sail more easily. Best to ask him for details on that.

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Just a word of caution, when you see all the top Maricats you'll see that they have two Ronstan rotating cleats on the bottom of the mast (plus a slimline double and a slimline triple).  This will make you think that you definitely need these.

 

Talk to the skippers.  Ask them if they use the downhaul.  I'll put money (not much mind) that few to none of them use it.

 

I think you'll find that most of them use it to lightly set the luff at the beginning but from there never touch it.

 

Downhaul on big cats is a 'gross' adjustment and is used heaps.  Trouble on the Mari is that because it bends the mast (thus flattening the sail) it can stop the mast rotating when you tack (or causes it to resist rotation).  You need to release it before tacking then reset it after your tack.  Very hard to do when you've release the new leeward cleat, you have to recleat the leeward then pull in the windward line - very hard to do.

[tonyquoll]

On cross-cut sails, downhaul is the main tool for flattening the sail - which is what you need to do to get upwind in moderate & strong breezes.
When you sheet in, the mainsheet blocks drive the boom forward, which pushes the mast around. If the mast hasn't rotated when you've tacked, ease the sheet, which should have the wind rotate the mast, then sheet in again.
On boats such as the NS14, where a lot of vang pressure is used and the mast becomes locked into rotation on one side, the crew has to kick the vang spanner after each tack to make it rotate. In America, they even call the vang the "kicker".
It's a different story with radial sails, which flatten out with mainsheet tension. So if you do talk to other Maricat skippers, check what type of sail they're talking about.

[exhogger]

Great discussion.

Does the advice above re downhaul apply to sloop rigged Mari's, particularly 4.0 ?