darcy1945 Posted July 11, 2007 Report Share Posted July 11, 2007 The proposal, at this stage, is to sail races consisting of triangle, loop, start and finish in middle of work, works approx 1000m, Koonawarra Y/S modified, ie, production foam sandwich boats -1/2 %, Spinaker added -2%,Sloop rig boats crew weight less than 140 kg -1% for ea 10 kg, cat and super sloop crew weight greater than 90 kg +1% for ea 10kg, use of production sails (original multi coloured dacron) + 5% ( except Hobie). In a 40 min race 2%=48sec, 5%=2mins. Any thoughts or discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted July 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2007 Our aim is to allow good sailors on stock, (almost), production boats, and or those who have with age accumulated some weight handicap, to compete with a reasonable chance of success against $9000 dollar boats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stb-tack Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Sounds Fair, but will take a little time and a reviewing of results to establish the equity of it across cat/sloop/supersloop classes. I think a half % for a boat which can be up to 25% lighter is probably going to show up as a not enough. Time will tell. At this point some change is necessary. My only concern would be that if we give % for living a good life ie over 90kg we should also give % for being a pauper ie less than 90kg. Some of our lighter weight sailors at around 60-70 kg would be disadvantaged by needing to add weight up to 90kg. To add weight is not practicable or fair. The 90kg person carries it where it is needed around his middle, the lightweight cannot do this and has to position it in an unmoveable place ie ctr of boat, which gives very little advantage not to mention fore and aft placement ie nose diving v surfing. As it stands at present with the association, a 70kg person would probably not buy a composite boat because he will be considerably disadvantaged by having to add weight. The only fair answer in time is that composite construction boats will no longer be in the same one design class as f-glass and will need separate status. Roll on Summer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 As the custodian of the Koonawarra Bay Yardsticks, I am very interested in your proposed changes. I agree with 'stb-tack' in that it will take some time to try to analyse the accuracy of these changes. I will be interested to see how they work out. I would add the following comments: - These changes will add a lot of complexity to the system. Each boat will need to be analysed when entering and possibly have crews weighed. This could prove difficult and frustrating for your club officials, especially where configurations are changed during the regatta. - You will generally find that the best sailors sail the best boats (because they generally put more time, effort and money into their sport), but they will usually do as well on boats that are older or of a lesser standard. Likewise, sailors of a lesser standard will usually perform roughly the same, regardless of how good a boat they use (I realise this is generalising, but it is largely true). You need to be careful that you are not bringing less skilled sailors into the "prize money" in order to achieve an "everyone's a potential winner" approach. The yardstick system is designed to equalise boats of different designs, not different condition/age or skipper fitness or ability. - The best racing usually occurs with a fleet of the same design, regardless of the age of the boats involved. Hopefully, each class fleet will be big enough to allow their own class division, eliminating the difficulties of trying to implement such a complex system. Please don't take these comments as being against your approach, they are just my observations that you may or may not be interested in. Keep up the good work, Darcy. Regards, Dave Stumbles Koonawarra Bay Sailing Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Well done Darcy. I think the 5% factor for an original sail is pretty right. Some of the original sails were not multicoloured. I will attempt to include a photo of my 1980 little orange number. Still used in club races, but a bit slow and low upwind. http://lyc.catsailor.org/photos/0607/series1/slides/series1_2006%20081.html Don't think a 0.5% factor would be enough to compensate against the significantly lighter and stiffer boats. Reckon that it may need to be closer to 2%. Good luck with the regatta. I hope you get plenty of support and good sailing conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humungus2 Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 The only problem is that at your last regatta it took forever to get the results out. I reckon everyone would have left by the time you sought this mess out. Don't do it if you havn't got the program to run it. Either way I will still win the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 According to the proposed formula's for weight penalties my father would have a 1/2% (+1% for being 90+ and -1/2% for foam sandwich)Y/S advantage for not being the optimum weight for the class even though his boat is the newest complete Windrush 14 in NSW and in anything below 5knts or over 13knts is one of the fastest Windrush skippers around. However me at 78kgs anything 7-15knts and im quick 15-20 and I have a great dogfight with dad, 20+ and his weight advantage kicks in. So how do u justify the 1% advantage for him across all breeze conditions? Further on weight penalties a -1% for crews less than 140kgs is rediculous. I consider optimum crew weight to be 110-120kgs. So once again the formula's penalise those that are the optimum weight? Also i believe that the spi adjustment on VYC Y/S is around -2.5%. I guess im just not into being penalised for owning a foam sandwich boat, being 78kgs and ensuring i have the best gear on my boat to allow my the best possible chance of winning a race/series on any given day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 maybe you should consider a "vintage" class. the Windrush have previously run on at Mannering park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stb-tack Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 The focus needs to be on the big picture. How do we keep sailors on a budget interested as well as keeping sailors without a budget keen as well. It is a fine line. If we concentrate on our own personal gains we are not helping the classes at all. You are not supposed to be able to buy results. Forget about weight penalties and get the boats equal, either as strict one design and all identical, not some lightweight and some old heavyweights, because this is not one design sailing it is mixed fleet sailing. In mixed fleet sailing we sail off handicaps, based on past performance of boat and skipper not a theoretical average based on best a guess from a minority protecting their own best interests. To my knowledge I know of nowhere where 2 boats which can be as much as 25% different in weight, can sail together and be considered the same. We over complicate the issue by trying to correct crew weights via a penalty system. Lightweights win on light days, heavyweights win on heavy days. lightweights lose upwind but gain down wind, It usually balances out fairly in the end. The reality is we need both types of boat for the future of this kind of sailing. Modern construction is the future obviously, but if we make it to hard for the older boats to compete fairly then the class wont have a future to worry about. Fot the time being Darcy's system will be okay. Once numbers are there in the fleets, maybe two separate classes is the answer, or try a performance handicap system. (time/distance averaged over a number of races sets your handicap for the next race). To win you then have to sail better than you did last week and better than the others as well. I rest my case Roll on summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Well, Darcy, we were all going to sleep during winter, just waiting for a topic to stir us all up. The sloops are a division which is now a class to get kids into sailing. 140kg is basically 2 adults. The Maricat class rules have sloops at 108kg. Pointed Reply deliberately sails at this weight with supercrew Zac on board. A 32kg penalty or 3% is a bit steep. When we go out to race we try to beat all 14ft cats no matter what type or handicap. A penalty of 1/2% for foamies is too small. They should have about 10% and be made to sail blindfolded ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted July 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 The weight penalty is aimed at the sloop (2 up) only, it may bring some couples back to this class, if my wife could get down to 40kg I would just make the 140 without penalty. Our best mari and windy wearing Production sails is not less than 5% of the pace of race sails regardless of the skippers skill. Our courses will be 1 triangle, 1 loop, not the course for spinnaker boats to shine, hence the reduced penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 I have heard that maricats have some significant variations in boat weights between mkII grp and foamies. Fact or Fiction? But for Windrush the bulkhead grp boats were built to the same weight as the foamies (most foamies are coming out at 26-27.5kgs a hull). So weight difference between boats is a BS excuse. Whilst a foamy does have an advantage in heavy conditions, due to having no 'flex' in the bow. A good skipper on board a bulkhead non foam windrush could easily beat a good skipper on a foamy even in heavy conditions were the foamy has an advantage. I proved this at the Mannering Park Windrush states where I jumped on dad's bulkhead grp boat and won 3 of 5 races or so. Yeh i had a mylar rig but the fact is dad was on a less than 1yr old foam sandwich complete boat and we had a good battle. Maybe those that are at the top of the tree competitivly speaking should look to further help those that arn't. Ie. those that have "coloured" sails could upgrade to used mylars? Bundock does this with the Australia Tornado fleet. He sells this 'unwanted' gear at very reasonable prices back into the aust. fleet where it is still top notch gear. Maybe those that get a new sail every 4 seasons or so should "pass" their old gear along the line to someone who dosnt have the latest and greatest? But my point is if someone wants to win within the rules so be it, let them. If they want to do the work and put their resources in, to better their performance so be it. Dont change the rules to penalise those that do make the effort to be competitive because you'll drive them out of it and when the next fang dangle class (eg. F14's) comes along the current classes wont be able to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humungus2 Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 The new foam sandwich maricats are on the minimun weight of 95kg all up. This weight was set over 30 years ago. There is nothing stopping the older boats being made lighter. On average the older boats are 15kg - 20kg heavyer than the new boats. There are lots of factors with a winning boat. I dug deep in Dec 2006 and purcahsed a new 4.3m Maricat for several reasons. New Price now is $9450.00 plus delivery from QLD. It's for sale at $8500.00. I will buy another new one as soon as it is sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted July 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 My main aim is to ensure that the current production classes, which are enjoying a great revival at the moment, continue to flourish. The main reason for this revival is minimum cost competition, (Untill the advent of foam boats a $600 Mk1 Mari whith a new race main $1200 could win a National title), all of the mods proposed will be tweaked untill we have it right or will be dropped. The benifit will be for the majority of boats in each class and may not suit the odd "win at any cost competitor". In a 50 min race the foam Cat rigged boats have to win by 15 sec. Humongrel believes he can win by at least that margin and so do I. Thanks for the support, keep the comments coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stb-tack Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Some Questions on previous posts 1: Is that a comment or an advert posted previously by Humanguts the second.? 2: I am interested in knowing how to Shave 20kg from something that only started at 90kg, can anybody help me ? 5: There are not supposed to be any factors with a winning one design boat except for the skill of the crew. 7: Humangust has the skill to win on any boat (and has), at the moment we have the best sailors on the lightest boats which does not produce a very balanced base to work from. What happens when we get an average sailor on a light boat. Will all those on heavier boats be happy to be second to an inferior sailor.? 9: Stick to it Darcy somebody has to take the initiative, and be the scapegoat, rather you than me. I enjoy my sailing win lose or draw. If I sail better than I did last time out I am a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humungus2 Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Yes it is an advert and a comment as well. To shave some weight of the old waterlogged boat. Split it in two along the deck join and pull out the water logged foam, the stowage locker and all the other crap inside from when the builder didn't give a dam. A new sail will help any boat. the new rudders float instead of sink and weigh less. Do some mods to them and this will help. A great recipe for flogging any Windrush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stb-tack Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Nice reply Mick But: A new sail will not alter the weight. Waterlogged foam = 1kg per side, I know, I weighed it when I took it out Lockers weighed 1.2 kg each side, I weighed them to. The hulls are not waterlogged. The glass and resin required to join hulls and deck again = 2.5ltr resin at 1kg per ltr and cloth 1kg for an average job. There is no "other crap" inside hulls, unless the manufacturer left his tools in there. I have the very same blades (newer ones) you speak of in better shape than the manufacturer produced them. I have the lighter of the two mast at around 11kg, not the 15kg one. I don"t sail with my main halyard on board, I use the original downhaul system cause it is lighter than the 2 cleat system, I dont use a vang cause it weighs to much v the gain of having it. I use VB cord on my one piece tramp cause it is lighter, and use 8mm instead of 10 sheet rope, cause, you guessed it, it is lighter So far i have gained 4kg in reductions and added on 3.5kg in restoration. On very accurate set of scales at RAAF Williamtown I still weigh in at 87KG unrigged. Not quite the 20kg I need to make a stale sandwich. I will offer you $5999.99 for your crusty sandwich and then argue with you why barging on a start line is not the go. Guess Who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 This is turning into the same old Foamie v GRP debate. At the MP Regatta last year Mick, in his old boat won the regatta overall, but was beaten in some races by a few boats including a couple of Paper Tigers, a Mari Sloop and ZAX. At the last three major regattas (MP Jan, Maricat Nats and States), Mick on the new boat, was unbeatable, closely followed by the other foamies. I think the top sailers on foam Maricats will quickly show they are the fastest 14ft cats around and the Yardsticks will need to be redefined. This will be bad news for the older Maricats who already find it tough against the Windies and PTs. But I think the new weight rules for foamies(with the sunset clause) in the Maricat Class rules is the right way to go. Back to Darcy's proposal. A minimum weight sloop may have an advantage in lighter winds but in strong winds they could be at a disadvantage, so the 1% per 10kg becomes a double penalty. I'm not sure about a bonus to a sailer over 90kg. A new sail will often cost more than a boat is worth so it is a big investment, especially for someone new or short on cash. An allowance for an old sail seems like a good idea(except for Pirate Pete with the black sail!!), but 5% may be too big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humungus2 Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Well "Guess Who". I put it to you. You use my fresh sandwich at the Sallamander regatta and I will use another Mari 4.3m cat rigged and you will still be a loser against me. Find your own sail. You pick up and bring back to my house. When you still can't beat me, you may have a different opinion about the fastest boat being about the sailors ability and not boat or sailors weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humungus2 Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 PS: if a miricle happens and you do manage to beat my. I will do you a very special deal on a set of FOAM SANDWICH hulls. Let me assure you that hulls do get water logged and I have been known to barge but not on the occation you think I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted July 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 5min is a starting point, as is the 1min/10kg over 90. but I believe that both are close. To try the 5min I will sail all club races prior to the regatta using the best stock, (multi coloured), sail I can find, against Jason and Brenton (I am usually within 30 sec-1min of this pair). We know that some solid coloured sails do perform and they will not attract any bonus. If sombody turns up weighing 111kg on a stock mk1 windy with off the beach rudders he will deserve the 12% he gets and even if he was the current national champ on his other foam boat I don't think he would finish on the podium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stb-tack Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 I have already agreed that you are a great mari sailor, but its not all about you and me. It still doesnt help me to get a boat to even close to sandwich weight. So my argument still stands. 20+kg of weight difference = a different class. If you read my posts I have already agreed to this, as do you judging by your vote at the Mari AGM. I do not need to swap boats with you to know you are a better "Mari" sailor than me at the moment, But as stated this should not be about individuals, but about the class, and above all the future of sailing in general for people learning the ropes, which you and I are not. The big picture is what counts which I know you believe in or you would not be as committed to the class as you are. No offence intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humungus2 Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Fair enough. 20kg is 20kg and it is a lot to not be able to move where you need it, BUT, as you know the min weigt on the new boat is 20kg more than the GRP boat. People do have the option of just replacing hulls. The weight as mentioned at the begining of this post is not the only advantage of the new hull. STIFFNESS comes into it, less twist with new unfortiged beams. Even over the winter break I polished my hulls, tightened my beam bolts and tramp just to keep the boat as new and as fast as posible. There has to be some pluses for people opting to spend the money on new hulls instead of being penalised and segrigated to do their own thing. After all, without new boats the class will disspear anyway sipply because of unreparible collisions. Winning means a lot to me and my mind is set on flogging the Windrushes whom have had the advantage over the Maricats for many years. I have no intention of letting the class be known as the one that got left behind. It will be the fastest stock 14' production cat within the next 2 years. The offer still stands Al. I am only to happy to hold a Maricat tuning/tweeking day. Anyone who wants to get the absolute MAXIMUN out of their boat just email me mike@ltpmarina.com.au and we will have a tuning day. Hey Darcy, when do you start the season again. I would come down there for a day as well (not that you need it). I can't see why the yardstick on the new Maricat should be any different to the yardstick on the foam sandwich, kevla sail carring widrushes. Oh thats right, they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stb-tack Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Hi Mick Thanks for the offer, I think with my weight on your sandwich it would no longer be sailing, more like flying without a proper seat and harness. You have hit the nail right on the head though. You should not be penalised for spending your hard earned, but nor should others be penalised for not having hard earned to spend. In time as we see more sandwiches on the scene some of those will be sold as stale sandwiches and eventually the fleet is back to one design. This may not be in our sailing days, so whatever we do needs to cover the old boats for quite a few years to come. I believe what Darcy is attempting is as good as it can get for now, but will only be an interim measure to see us through until we have enough of both boats to get some benchmarks on elapsed times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Ok, im sick of this mari crap. They'll never be a windrush get ova it and buy a windrush Its the only way u'll be 'fast' We've been on foamies for ages and most of our fleet has upgraded with foam hulls on old beams etc, has taken TIME but we are basically one design again. Windies have seen a change in y/s over the years and mari's will soon be back on par with us once the foamies become wide spread. But the class will evolve, those that can spend the money will and once they get more new gear it "should" be passed down the line. This will help ur class become "one design" quicker. As I have said and humungus has, with out those that buy new boats/hulls any class will die. Boats can only survive for so long and foamies will out last a grp tenfold. Bring it on is wat I say (with no bs y/s changes), im up for some Mari beating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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