guzzis3 Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Ok so things crawled to a halt due to rope lost in the mail. Finally my heavy duty close end thimbles arrived from germany. I bought from: http://www.yacht-steel.com/english.html, or possibly their associated company http://www.nauticnorm.com. It isn't clear to me how it all works but maybe yacht steel is for large quantities and the other is for small orders. Anyway they were by far the cheapest including shipping. About $47 for 14 thimbles, and I can see why these are so expensive. Each is a big hunk of stainless beautifully made. I decided to go with dyneema despite advice to the contrary. I want to give it a try and it's a cheap enough experiment. If it does not work well I can always get stainless shrouds made up. That's one of the things about tiny boats like this, everything is cheap and easy. I've also measured the mast,it's about 65 x 43 mm. A very light section, so although it's 6.7 meters high it is a much lighter thing to step than a 14' mast. I have not weighed it and the boom/main yet but I think the whole boat must be comfortably under 60kg. I'd appreciate opinions on making or buying an affordable telescopic tiller extension. The boat has been modified by someone insane. They have fixed 2 short tiller extensions, one each side, with weird handles on them. They are too short to be useful but more importantly there is nothing to restrain the one not in use so it's just flopping around looking for an opportunity to jam the rudders or get up to other mischief. Because the boat is SO sensitive my position is critical so I need to be able to move forward. Because the beam is so small and the tillers sit above the crosstube for some reason a fixed length extension is not ideal. Any thoughts and comments appreciated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Dawson Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 Thanks for sharing the story. Did you ever find out what sort of boat it is? You might not need a telescopic tiller extension? Just use a longer piece of PVC tube and attach it using the existing hardware to the middle of the cross bar. It looks like you would be able to shorten the arms on the rudder stocks so they are not hanging over the beam. I assume the 'v' cut into the end of the arms is a basic cleat for the rudder downhaul. You may be able to get away with not using a traveller - many arrows don't use a traveller anymore. You might need a boom vang though to keep the boom down when letting sheet off. I will be interested to hear how your Dyneema shrouds work out. What are the heavy duty thimbles for? Keep the photos coming and feel free to post them on my Arafura Cadet Facebook Page - https://www.facebook.com/ArafuraCadet/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzis3 Posted March 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 18 hours ago, Matthew Dawson said: Thanks for sharing the story. There will be installments 18 hours ago, Matthew Dawson said: Did you ever find out what sort of boat it is? No I'm afraid not. Many speculated but nothing panned out. It looks more like a prindle than anything else but they never made anything that small, at least that I can find a record of. While the hulls are asymetrical they are not like a prindle or hobie with a near flat outer and sharp keel, they are more like caper cat hulls that have been turned out. 18 hours ago, Matthew Dawson said: You might not need a telescopic tiller extension? Just use a longer piece of PVC tube and attach it using the existing hardware to the middle of the cross bar. The boat is only 1.6 wide. It was apparent during my short and ill fated sail that I'll need to get right up near the mast sometimes to balance it. Even if I could fit a .8 - .9 meter extension it wouldn't allow me to do that. 18 hours ago, Matthew Dawson said: It looks like you would be able to shorten the arms on the rudder stocks so they are not hanging over the beam. I assume the 'v' cut into the end of the arms is a basic cleat for the rudder downhaul. Yes it is, very crude. I'm considering ditching the balls and running the uphaul to downhaul in one length and putting 2 stopper knots in it. I could put hose around the ends of the tillers and onto the connector, losing the v cleat in the process. It's a small thing to add a cleat on top of the tillers, I still would be reluctant to have the extension hanging out the side while transporting, so another problem to address. 18 hours ago, Matthew Dawson said: You may be able to get away with not using a traveller - many arrows don't use a traveller anymore. You might need a boom vang though to keep the boom down when letting sheet off. It already has a vang. As I said in my sailing report the rig kicks like none I've ever experienced. I really don't know why that was. The traveller as is is a PITA. It's one of those silly dinghy sections that lock in position. I could just leave the sheet amidships, and I will do that for now, but when I get to it I'm more inclined to make it a proper self tacking traveller. That creates other problems on an una rigged cat, backwinding for tacking, but I'll think about all that when the time comes. 18 hours ago, Matthew Dawson said: I will be interested to hear how your Dyneema shrouds work out. What are the heavy duty thimbles for? The dyneema. My understanding is you can't just use normal open thimbles. For a start they should be 4x or 5x the rope diameter or you get a lot of strand breakage. 18 hours ago, Matthew Dawson said: Keep the photos coming and feel free to post them on my Arafura Cadet Facebook Page - https://www.facebook.com/ArafuraCadet/ Oh that's yours ? Ok. I was thinking of asking the calypso group how they felt about my posting there... that is probably my "natural" home among the FB groups I've found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
33frupus Posted March 1, 2017 Report Share Posted March 1, 2017 You can restrain your second tiller with electrical conduit clips. They have 25 mm and 32 mm $0.84 a pair. One goes over your tiller bar with the other sitting on top to retain the tiller extension. They have existing holes for fixing . Works a treat for under a $1 if this isn't clear let me know and I'll post a photo on the weekend. my boat also came with twin extendable tiller extensions and it was a pain in the arse until i put on the clips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzis3 Posted March 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 Yes I can add clips. The existing tiller extensions are only about 18" long and not telescopic, so they are virtually useless anyway. There are holes in teh middle, I assume it had a proper extension previously but a DPO has changed it to a system that doesn't work Thank you for the suggestion though.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted March 17, 2017 Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 Clamcleat CL257 is the go for rudder blade hold downs, they release automatically when you hit something. Put a 2:1 on the downhaul for the blade, I ended up just using a couple of shackles. Definitely reformat the tiller extension. Single one in the centre - I used a length of straight ag pipe that you get from Bunnings, surprisingly light, goes over a piece of conduit which is then rivetted to the universal joint on the bar. If the mast rotates forget the vang, if you pull it on then it won't let the mast rotate or tack properly. Try to get hold of a six roller thingo for the traveller, they do need to travel! I can see why the Arrows don't have one but really only when they're going at near to full speed when the rig is always in tight. I think even the current A class boats have full length travellers still (but could be wrong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzis3 Posted March 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 On 3/17/2017 at 5:20 PM, knobblyoldjimbo said: Clamcleat CL257 is the go for rudder blade hold downs, they release automatically when you hit something. Put a 2:1 on the downhaul for the blade, I ended up just using a couple of shackles. Thank you for the comments. I've not gotten to the rudders yet. That camcleat will work fine but so too will shock cord, which I can also tune by moving the knot. Quote Definitely reformat the tiller extension. Single one in the centre - I used a length of straight ag pipe that you get from Bunnings, surprisingly light, goes over a piece of conduit which is then rivetted to the universal joint on the bar. Yes I looked at those. I'm still deciding whether to go for a telescopic or fixed extension. There are cheap telescopic handles in bunnings for paint rollers, about $25 or something...I've got a few old handles around the house so I'm thinking I might just rig one of those see how it goes and make a decision from there... Quote If the mast rotates forget the vang, if you pull it on then it won't let the mast rotate or tack properly. It already has a vang and it anchors on the mast, so rotation isn't affected. I was just slack on my first sail and didn't rig it properly. It REALLY needs it, IMO more than any boat I've ever sailed. Still not sure why it kicks so badly. Quote Try to get hold of a six roller thingo for the traveller, they do need to travel! I can see why the Arrows don't have one but really only when they're going at near to full speed when the rig is always in tight. I think even the current A class boats have full length travellers still (but could be wrong). It has a track and car but the car locks. It's not my favourite setup but again I'll make changes one at a time. I've been not well this last week but yesterday and today finally started making shrouds. I've done the lowers and will do the uppers next then forestay and hopefully bridle. My tails are not as neat as they could be but the dyneema is a pleasure to work with, very different than traditional rope. Once the rigging is safe I want to take it out in light winds and see how I feel about other stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Dawson Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 Nice job. I have done a bit of work with dyneema (not shrouds) - it's fun to work with. I just use spliced loops most of the time but I have also used normal thimbles. I am interested in why you need those large thimbles - they are huge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzis3 Posted April 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 I read a lot about dyneema before I started. Apparently if you bend it tighter than 5x the rope diameter, in this case 4mm/20mm it loses a signifigant % of its strength due to strand breakage. Having said that I think the rope is so strong strength is probably not an issue in a small boat like this and I could have used normal thimbles. If I had thought I'd probably to to 5mm to be safe. The rope weighs nothing but the thimbles are HEAVY! so with 5 mm rope and normal pressed stainless thimbles it would weigh less overall and have a larger margin of safety. Cost would be similar though. The thimbles cost about $47 delivered for 14. Also dux doesn't come in 4mm as far as I have been able to find so there is that... I'm giving up on this forum. I might build a page on facebook or something to document the rest. The forum won't let me post any more photos. I've got some pics of the rigged boat with the new shrouds and the other rope replacements I've done. I've really enjoyed the process,doing something new as well as eliminating all those sharp points. Makes me happy. If the shrouds actually work and last then all the better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted April 5, 2017 Report Share Posted April 5, 2017 Put your pics onto Picassa or another photo sharing site. You may have noticed that this site doesn't have ads, that means that the owners pay for all the space. Most pics nowadays are quite large so there's a lot of space required. For example this pic which I took years ago was on picasa. You can copy the image location there and paste it into here. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8CuIlXWhDwhkO5uMiGPRkbdf01w1lBu5NIZjURRk6QljGRQcGXsTVhpb9fLzG_zNeku4gs4yw0xm=w293-h220-rw Now, if this doesn't show my old Careel 18 that's probably because the permissions on picasa are not correct, do tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzis3 Posted April 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2017 HI, I realise it's free and has no ads and I appreciate that, but I think it's easier if I just build a facebook page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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