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Hi Andrew.

I'm sorry I can't agree with your obversations.

The facts are, F16s are being sailed in North America, Europe and even here in OZ. Admittley, it is in it's embryo stage, but never the less it is inevitable.

The Dutch Coast Challenge will be the first meeting of different classes at an international event. Purley promo, but never the less a infant classes first steps.

I will endeavour to keep this forum up dated on the DCC as it's happening from late July.

Next season in OZ will see a national body in place and organised racing taking place.

As for who is going to participate, the mozzies are already 9 strong, a few Blades and a couple of stretched Taipans.

Since I'm still being a Tiapan owner, I believe the competive spirit will come out of the Taipan guys and some of them will sail in the organised events.

The Taipan class is far from fractured, but they do need to refocus, the facts are that there are over 300 of them out there, and there numbers are shrinking. It would be foolish to heap all the blame on F16. There is usually more than one reason for one problem.

Public forums are a great place to start the healing process. Why not ask the punters what they want?

As I have mentioned before Formula racing should be asspired to. And the 4.9 is one hell of a training boat.

Regards Tony Jenkins

Blade 002

Taipn 4.9 184 for sale

Originally posted by Andrew Holden:

Never really was a F16 - All it did was fracture the 4.9 fleet. Wouter Hijinks seems to push the class even though he does not even sail one.

I think keep the 4.9 as 2 sail - good option for light crews. When my 3 year old can hold a jib/main I might even buy one !

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Really just wanting to stir some comments - I still personally feel that kites just add $$$ to sailing at a time when we need as many people on the water as we can.

The average Father/son will not be able to spend the money required. Maybe we should have told the Govt that sailing encourages the production of babies and we would have got a kite benefit

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  • 2 weeks later...

The problems with cat racing in Oz are many, not the least of which is the number of classes being sailed and the severe lack of 'spare' time and $$$ to go do something as non productive as "sailing that bloody silly boat again all day".

I think probably one of the main ones though is that we haven't provided for new blood to fill the gaps left by retiring owners. We don't encourage young people to participate in cat racing and we have no training clubs/schools to help them get going. In fact quite the reverse is true in that we actively discourage their participation with our attitudes toward smaller boats generally and particularly at regattas.

We also believe that it's a waste of good $$$ to provide our up and coming (future) sailors with a decent boat and decent racing, unlike the monohull frat. who get behind their young sailors supporting them in any way they can. We're way too cool to get involved in any of that boring do-gooder rubbish. Of course our fleets diminish and eventually we have no one to sail against but hey, at least we're not ordinary.

Formula racing is one way to rescue the failing fleets by combining makes and classes to form one big fleet. It's attractive to manufacturers also because more than one builder can get involved.

Bern

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Is there any yardstick given for F16s yet for racing in mixed fleets or if not what sort of rating will be likely?

I'd have to agree with andrew as far as kites go tho, it amazes me that there are so many boats putting kites on, even if the extra $$$ is no problem its gotta be extra setup / packup time lowering the actual sailing / drinking time?

Cheers Phil

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Originally posted by Phil Palmer:

I'd have to agree with Andrew as far as kites go tho, it amazes me that there are so many boats putting kites on, even if the extra $$$ is no problem its gotta be extra setup / packup time lowering the actual sailing / drinking time?

Cheers Phil

That's true Phil and it is a serious consideration for me with my 430, to which I'm currently fitting a kite. It's a nice boat to sail and reasonable simple to rig and I fear that the spi will make it much more difficult all ways round and defeat the purpose of the original concept of a quick, easy to use 14ft uni-rigged cat.

Bern

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  • 3 months later...

dear sailors,

let me be very blunt here.

Only some Aussies are complaining about the kite. The rest of the world just isn't.

Come to think of it. Hooking your trailer to your car, taking the boat of and rig is way more work than getting your squash racket and towel and drive to the squash club anyway.

In my defense. There was never a Taipan fleet outside Aus and due to F16 there is presence in East and West USA, Europe and Asia. In case you hadn;t noticed but 90 % of these boats outside aus are sailing with a spinnaker.

Don't blame me for your problem. They are in my view largely of your own making. I'm leaving you alone in Aus and still you are faltering.

So if you want to grow or even survive than be active and do something about it. Stop blaming Anybody But Yourself. I'm not out to kill the Taipan 4.9 class or fracture it, never was. If you can't stand the pressure coming from other classes like the F18 or even the F16 (when we try to steer clear of you) than maybe you just don't deserve to survive. Ever thought about that ?

Wouter

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Guest Antony Edwards

Wouter, if you were aware of the totally different environment (not talking about the weather or geographical features) you would probably understand alittle more why there is currently little support for regular F16 racing on the East coast. At the moment we live in a beautiful world, where the taipan is king of its domain. I don't think anybody seriously thinks that your trying to ruin the class, or that you could.

But it doesn't look good when on the outside it looks like the class is bickering over the formula, when in reality there is little or no debate between active members in the class.

For example, none of the people to my knowledge, in this thread own or are active in the taipan fleet. Tony Jenkins is trying to sell his boat.

In the recent slanging match that occured over the yahoo group, again 80% of respondents didn't own or weren't active in the fleet.

So, please in future don't blame the Taipan class for putting the knives in. Granted for us in Aust the status quo suits us real well. Personally I would hate to see the any other F16 (sorry, TJ and Phill, this includes the blade) imported into Aust as the market is so small and the dissaperance of one boat is still noticable.

I hope that AHPC continue to sell Taipans overseas with Spinnakers, and If I travel overseas I would also sail with a spinnaker.

Antony Edwards

Originally posted by Wouter:

dear sailors,

let me be very blunt here.

Only some Aussies are complaining about the kite. The rest of the world just isn't.

Come to think of it. Hooking your trailer to your car, taking the boat of and rig is way more work than getting your squash racket and towel and drive to the squash club anyway.

In my defense. There was never a Taipan fleet outside Aus and due to F16 there is presence in East and West USA, Europe and Asia. In case you hadn;t noticed but 90 % of these boats outside aus are sailing with a spinnaker.

Don't blame me for your problem. They are in my view largely of your own making. I'm leaving you alone in Aus and still you are faltering.

So if you want to grow or even survive than be active and do something about it. Stop blaming Anybody But Yourself. I'm not out to kill the Taipan 4.9 class or fracture it, never was. If you can't stand the pressure coming from other classes like the F18 or even the F16 (when we try to steer clear of you) than maybe you just don't deserve to survive. Ever thought about that ?

Wouter

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Antony,

I respect your views as I always had with regard to any Taipan sailor but you must understand that my post was directed at statement such as the following quote (Andrew Holden)

"Never really was a F16 - All it did was fracture the 4.9 fleet. Wouter Hijinks seems to push the class even though he does not even sail one."

Of course I do sail one and a Taipan F16 at that. And I have also sailed on Taipan F16's of befriended sailors since 2001; both in the USA and EU. So can the "He doesn't sail one" people please put a sock in it ?

Then about ; "never really was a F16". Yeah, the Taipan class featured 100 boats in their own 1988 nationals, right ? Why is the F16 class considered against another referenceframework than the Taipan class in its earlier days or even the Taipan 5.7 class during its whole existance ?

Give us some credit.

Time after time I find that in some corner of the net statements are being made about my persona and the F16 class that border on vindictiveness or accusations of traiteriousy.

Look at it from this side. If some of you think F16 never was and that I'm neglectable because I don't sail one than how on earth do you square all that with the infinite supply of unease about the F16 class and me.

Either we are an influence of importance implying F16 "really is" or we are not. You can not have it both ways.

Thus far my general reply.

The following is a reply to your message Antony

>>Wouter, if you were aware of the totally different environment (not talking about the weather or geographical features) you would probably understand alittle more why there is currently little support for regular F16 racing on the East coast.

Antony, in all honesty I don't care about the Australian east coast Taipan sailors. In all ways positive I add. I'm happy to leave the Taipan class as it is; the Taipan class simply doesn't factor in when it comes down to the policy of the F16 class. I never supported or will ever support changes in Taipan OD class. So why are you guys scared of me ?

If it is that you fear that sailors will jump class to the F16 class then that is not my bad is it. If sailors find F16 more attractive than Taipan OD then that is just a decision that is made by an individual sailor. Bluntly put; that is rather the fault of the Taipan class by not being attractive enough.

If it is the fear that F16 activities somehow make Taipan sailor nervous about the Taipan OD future than again that is not my fault is it ? F16 and I are seperated and independent entities. In fact it only means that your own board should work harder at expressing a clear future that is beyond doubt.

>>At the moment we live in a beautiful world, where the taipan is king of its domain.

No, you do not in a beautiful world. You live in a Beautiful eastern part of Australia. Here Taipan OD is king. In all other regions of this beautiful world F16 is dominant. And I see no point in stroking myselfs by making statements of who is king in what domain. Come to think of it, I think the Aus F18 class would have a thing or two to say about your claim. Maybe you are living to much on past glory. The future however has no responsibility to honour the past.

>>I don't think anybody seriously thinks that your trying to ruin the class, or that you could.

Great, can these people who state that "All it did was fracture the 4.9 fleet" please take note of that ?

Wether I could or not is a useless discussion as I only operate in regions where Taipan OD never was. There was nothing to ruin there. And again I'm doing my best to be kind to the Aus Taipan OD class.

>>But it doesn't look good when on the outside it looks like the class is bickering over the formula, when in reality there is little or no debate between active members in the class.

Indeed, so why do I still find these discussions continuing publically in different corners of the internet ? We've been going in circles for 3 years now. This time it was Andrew Holden who felt a need to set us F16's straight. And on a F16 forum as well I might add.

And than you continue to deny our existance yourself or downplay our activities or right of speaking. All standard Taipan OD sailor tactics.

Example :

>>For example, none of the people to my knowledge, in this thread own or are active in the taipan fleet. Tony Jenkins is trying to sell his boat.

What difference does it make wether we still own or sail a Taipan or not. Fact of the matter is that for some reason several active Taipan members are leaving the Taipan class for another, in this case F16. Now either they think F16 is more attractive or the Taipan OD class scares them away. Either way it is certain that I don't scare or blackmail them into the F16 class or that they switch because they feel Taipan OD is more attractive. THIS is the reason why they are not "active in the taipan fleet". Of course both still own and also sail their Taipans. With a spinnaker of course, neither of them want to sail without it.

See my point (while ignoring the emotion that is layed in the words). This is the reason why I say that your troubles are of your own making. These guys would never have switched if they feel at home in the current Taipan OD class. Hell, both of them were extremely sceptical at the beginning of the F16 class, something turned them around. Now think about that. I admit, I'm giving you some tough love here, but my comments are alot more than a defense of myself.

>>In the recent slanging match that occured over the yahoo group, again 80% of respondents didn't own or weren't active in the fleet.

Which fleet ? As I recall halve of the respondents own and sailed F16's. Most of these owned Taipan F16's as well. But you are not counting the F16 as a fleet do you, simply because they are not Taipan OD. Well that is easy. Everybody who does support F16 in the Taipan fleet is immediately disqualified from the Taipan fleet thus resulting in zero support for the spi in this very same Taipan fleet. A sort of self forfilling profecy.

In all honesty I'm a public figure so you call me a mad man or what ever. But do you realize at all that I received unsollicited support by all the "who is who" outside Aus with statements like "I sure don't understand what the Aussies are thinking". I even received some from Australia as well. Honestly.

Sure you guys are almost running a Stalinist repercussion regime in the Taipan OD class. Anybody who sticks their head out gets it chopped of. You are pushing away your most important members/sailors. What is your former webmaster sailing right now ? You name mr Jenkins, an energetic organiser, what does he sail right now ? You must be very careful not to loose any more of these people because the rank and file weekend sailors won't keep your class alive. You still have Daniel but another biggy of the same level has just bought a spinnaker and switched.

Now you can waste your time ranting at the F16 class and me but that won't stop the decay. Sure I'm a confronting and unsympathetic know-it all, when only looking at my posts, but that doesn't mean I'm talking nonsense here.

I say snap out of that defeatest attitude and start looking for new ways to grow.

>>So, please in future don't blame the Taipan class for putting the knives in.

Actually I blame the Taipan BOARD (not the class) for singlehandedly running the Taipan class into the ground. Again, it makes no difference to the F16 class wether you guys survive or die. The main weight of the F16 class is outside Australia anyway and it looks like F16 Aus is growing and attracting some of the more active and skilled sailors despite very low key profile that we keep in Aus.

I do think it a real pitty if the Taipan OD class dies for we see it as our parent class and respect it as such.

>>Granted for us in Aust the status quo suits us real well. Personally I would hate to see the any other F16 (sorry, TJ and Phill, this includes the blade) imported into Aust as the market is so small and the dissaperance of one boat is still noticable.

And here we have it don't we. You guys are scared shitless of the F16. You would do anything to frustrate its growth. Why I don;t understand as your main competition is the F18 anyway. You guys are approaching negative critical mass and risking implosion. We all know it. And yes I know it from comments expressed by locals.

I say get your butts into gear and save that Taipan OD class. If anything you will get help from the F16 class and me personally. Hint : it does help if you are a little bit nicer to us.

>>I hope that AHPC continue to sell Taipans overseas with Spinnakers, and If I travel overseas I would also sail with a spinnaker.

Thank you, However this is not a meaningful concession on your part is it.

They are already doing that and have for years and your own willingness to sail a spi overseas indicates that you yourself are not immune to a pleasures of spi sailing.

My appologies for being harsh but I'm getting a little tired of being marginalized. I also refuse to sit still when the Taipan OD class is faltering. Over and over again I will suggest, advice, argue that energy spend on "commenting on and distancing the F16" is better used giving the Taipan 4.9 class are more positive face.

Again as the F16 chairman I offer to team up and help you guys in the times ahead. Up till now you guys seem happy to "hate to see the any other imported into Aust". But we both know that that is a failed strategy.

Forgive me my directness,

Wouter

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I don't see why some people are so negative towards the F-16. The F-16 is not a Taipan with a kite. It is a formula for any or all manufactures to meet if they would like to be part of this class.

If somebody in OZ wishes to kick of the F-16 class and group boats together in one division of equal racing then they should be encouraged. We all complain about the abundance of classes and we don't see the size fleets we use to. Formula class is about setting guide lines for manufactures to meet so we can have different types of boats racing in the same division / fleet.

This has got to be a good think don't you think.

The king of the Oz domaine now would have to be after a short 2 years, the F-18 and also the A Class. Both these classes are multi manufacture with provisions for the home builder. In my opinion only, I would think that strict OD would do more damage to the sport of cat sailing than the formula concept.

As far as the Taipan fleet goes, like Woutersaid, the F-16 has nothing to do with the Taipan OD. Taipan sailors will still sail Taipans. If average joe F-16 sailor wishes to use a Taipan platform than he can. If AHPCA wishes to market their platform towards the F-16 market than they can too. The may profit from extra platform sales. Also those who wish to sail an F-16 could potentaly remove the kite gear and join the Taipan fleet which would benifit the Taipan class through increasing their numbers. It would be more benifical I believe if the Taipan class embraces the F-16 concept and encorage them to join the 4.9s at their regattas.

For those who believe that the F-16s are stealing their sailors..... Those people are changing boats because the new to Australia Spinnaker classes have caught their interest. They are excited and want to sail with a kite. If the Taipan fleet does not embrace them, then they might move from Taipans altogether and join the F-18s or Tornadoes. This would surly be more devistating to the class.

This is just my opinion.

Regards

Stephen Medwell

AITA President

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For the record, the Taipan Association committee is in favour of the F16 concept.

We just do not chose to sail Taipans as F16 in Association sponsored events, eg. State and National Titles.

A basic reason for this stance is that we like to encourage the many father/son, father/daughter, boyfriend/girlfriend crews to compete at state and national level, and believe a kite on a T4.9 sloop is too much to handle for a kid as young as 9 or 10. (My own son first started crewing for me on a T4.9 at age 8). We also don't want to split our national and state championship fleets into kite and non-kite divisions.

However the Association has no issue with any of our members sailing in F16 mode at club or F16 mixed-class events. The beauty of the taipan 4.9 is that it is competitive in all modes, cat rigged, sloop or F16.

And it is only natural that over time people come and go from particular classes for a range of reasons. However, despite what Wouter may believe, Taipans fleets are still strong (and will remain strong for the forseeable future) in 4 mainland states, with a small fleet starting to evolve in Tasmania. We are expecting a good fleet at our next nationals at Cootharaba. Interestingly, F18 Capricorns (which some might consider pseudo "Taipan F18" given that it comes from the same stable) have been invited to race in the T5.7 division.

Phil Edwards

President TCAA

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Hi Phil,

Thats fair enough..... Taipan is still strong in OZ and I agree that the kite could be a handfull for younger or less experienced crew.

Wish all the luck for the Taipan class but also to a future F-16 class.

PS - Why don't we have non spinaker formula classes. The formula would work just as well for them. That way the Taipan or any other manufacture class sailors can get together once a year for another Nationals with maybe more boats again. Would also develop into a nice manufacture (freindly)war like the F-18s. The Taipan is a very quick 16 footer build to great standards. Would be tough to exceed but could be done.

PS - Love the Capricorn.... Has shown plenty of pace in its early stages of development and looks dam sexy too.

Originally posted by phil_taipan117:

For the record, the Taipan Association committee is in favour of the F16 concept.

We just do not chose to sail Taipans as F16 in Association sponsored events, eg. State and National Titles.

A basic reason for this stance is that we like to encourage the many father/son, father/daughter, boyfriend/girlfriend crews to compete at state and national level, and believe a kite on a T4.9 sloop is too much to handle for a kid as young as 9 or 10. (My own son first started crewing for me on a T4.9 at age 8). We also don't want to split our national and state championship fleets into kite and non-kite divisions.

However the Association has no issue with any of our members sailing in F16 mode at club or F16 mixed-class events. The beauty of the taipan 4.9 is that it is competitive in all modes, cat rigged, sloop or F16.

And it is only natural that over time people come and go from particular classes for a range of reasons. However, despite what Wouter may believe, Taipans fleets are still strong (and will remain strong for the forseeable future) in 4 mainland states, with a small fleet starting to evolve in Tasmania. We are expecting a good fleet at our next nationals at Cootharaba. Interestingly, F18 Capricorns (which some might consider pseudo "Taipan F18" given that it comes from the same stable) have been invited to race in the T5.7 division.

Phil Edwards

President TCAA

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Guest Wouter

Stephen wrote :

PS - Why don't we have non spinaker formula classes. The formula would work just as well for them.

In all seriousness we have had this idea in the F16 class but it has long been shelved as at this time we are not in the situation to organise something like this.

The general idea is to build up the F16 class with a kite to avoid to much confusion and at a certain fleet size start organising F16 events without the kite. These would than act a spawning pools for new sailors that would eventually step up to the spi variation. All, again, using the same platform dimension and rules.

But again as said the F16 class has not reached the fleet size and presence to allow this to be started up yet.

However several in the F16 class are active in the field of "the new blood". Several different paths are being followed.

Personally I don't expect a result for several more years. A pitty, I agree.

Wouter

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  • 3 months later...

All this talk about f16 f18 4.9 hobie 16 / 18 tornados mosies is driving me nuts. I race a hobie 18 at the moment and are kinda fed up with paying top dollar for second rate gear so I'm looking to change boats.

But where do I turn?? all this bickering and arguing is not doing anyone any favours. I'm one of "new bloods" to the sport and I just want to race in big fleets, all I seam to here is old guys telling me stories like "back in my day we had 75 boat fleets."

Well I think its about time people realised were all just sailors looking for the same thing and embrace these formula classes.

F16 would be perfect for my wife and I, at the moment f18 is probably abit to much work for us but f16 would be a perfect intro to kite racing.

Its so simple... guys from my club recently bought f18's less then 3 months ago, there all for sale now. Because they

1. couldn't find reliable crew.

2. trailering them was a pain in the arse.

3. got expensive very quickly.

4. alot of work to sail to there potential.

F16 would have been perfect for them.

its horses for courses, formula boats are the answer - lets give the lighter poorer weaker... Ha ha sailors a formula class too. otherwise when I'm a grumpy old man I wont be able to tell stories about when i raced in fleets of 75 boats!

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