comparisons

[Emmessee]

ok, been done before but just want to refresh the debate.

What are the speed differences (not including skipper ability) between a Maricat 4.3, H14, Windrush and Paper Tiger.

After sailing for more than 30 years I have not really paid that much attention to the 14 foot bregade.

Thanks

[berny]

Assuming competent crew and depending on wind conditions;

Super sloop Windy foam is quickest, toss up between H14 and Mari although Mari is much nicer to sail.

Cat rigged;

PT is probably quickest in most conditions.

[This message has been edited by berny (edited 16 July 2007).]

[Emmessee]

The yardstick has the PT at 91.5, the Maricat at 94 and the H14 cat at 94.5. The Windy is 92 cat, 90.5 sloop and 87.5 supersloop. The Nacra 4.5 is 88. Very interesting.

[xmatelot]

4.5 and 14sq are 15 ft?????

pete

[Emmessee]

Not quite. Close though.

4.3 metres is 14 feet. They are 20cm longer.

The PT is the lightest of the classes. Also the oldest design.

[This message has been edited by Emmessee (edited 16 July 2007).]

[darcy1945]

Not 2cm, but 20cm or 8" Koonawarra Y/stick Cat rig P/Tiger 92 "'' '' Hobie 93 "" " Mari/windy 94 Super Sloop Windy/Hobie Turbo 88 . Mari 90 .Subtract 1/2% for foam sandwich boats (This may increase)

[darcy1945]

The arrow is I think the lightest Y/S 89 The Windy will carry heavier crew with less detriment to performance followed by Mari then Hobie. All 14s are weight critical a good lightweight will beat a good heavy regardless of conditions.

[darcy1945]

The arrow is I think the lightest Y/S 89 The Windy will carry heavier crew with less detriment to performance followed by Mari then Hobie. All 14s are weight critical a good lightweight will beat a good heavy regardless of conditions.

[xmatelot]

darcy is correct.

As mentioned in previous discussions, some clubs,(and they have the right to so,)do not include 4.5 and 14sq in their 14ft regattas,

so the comparison is futile.

pete

[Emmessee]

I meant 20cm's.

I was not really comparing them if you read the first post, I was only comparing the 14's but added the y/s for the 4.5 out of interest as I came across it.

I am a big skipper and will be happy playing at the back of the fleet as I did in the mari's a few years back.

[xmatelot]

PS,

they are still very good cats.

pete

[xmatelot]

Some sailing clubs group by VYS, or other Y/sticks, some by length, and some just are happy to see people wanting to sail,I think that the more the better.

pete

[darcy1945]

Back to the original Q from EMMESSEE obviously those Y/Sticks are only achieved by the top 6/12 boats in each class, a stock windy/mari with stock multi coloured dacron sails will be 5-10% slower. Hobies dont allow any change to sails and all P/Tigers are fast but fragile. The windies are probably the toughest and least prone to breakage and corrosion (I am constantly repairing 14s) and sail Mari because of current class strength and competition.

[Dave]

The Koonawarra Bay SC Yardsticks can be found on their website at www.koonawarrabaysc.org.au (click on "Yardsticks"). These only deal with 14ft Catamarans as we have built up a huge amount of data on these boats over 14 years of running our annual 14ft catamaran regatta.

Dave

Koonawarra Bay SC

[warbird]

I have never been beaten by another 14 foot on my good PT. I have had 5 Windrushes so am not biased. A late model PT is a very advanced boat in set up compared to the others and needs to be sailed well to gain max power and speed.

I am now sailing a 14 squared which is an entirely bigger boat than the PT or Windrush..much wider. It would not be fair for that boat to compete without some sort of handicap.

I think putting the other boats in together is fine.

So While the heavier, tougher cats are fun and can be treated roughly IMHO the PT is way the best purist sailboat.

Originally posted by xmatelot:

PS,

they are still very good cats.

pete

[Nacraholic]

Windrush 14 Foamy, very quick in the right hands. Would be good to see a series between the top 14 guys in the country raced on current VYC Yarkstick. Windrush Nationals are down the road from Mari Nats this year, would be closest oportuniy for a while. Im sure Brett and i could borrow a coupla boats for a day!!!Hehe

[TornadoSport260]

You wish you could beat us NSW Windy guys on our own water...

[Dave]

The main reason Koonawarra Bay SC developed their own yardsticks for 14ft catamarans was because we saw the VYC yardsticks as being inaccurate. Our contacts in numerous classes told us that the level of competition in the production cats (Windrush, Maricat, Hobie) was not strong in Victoria, hence the VYC yardstick inaccuracy. We set about developing our own, which used information sourced from some other yardstick systems. This was built up (as mentioned above) over many years of our 14ft catamaran regatta. One of the strengths of this process has been that we have regularly had State and National Champion sailors from various classes competing at the regatta, so the comparison between classes has been quite fair (assuming a similar level of competitors in the different classes).

Having either sailed in or run every one of Koonawarra Bay SC's 14ft cat regattas, my observations would be that Paper Tigers are very often the fastest upwind (nearly always first to the first mark), but off the wind the boats with more sail area (mainly the Super Sloop or Turbo configurations, as well as Arrows) are faster. Generally, the stronger the wind, the fewer of these boats will get past the Paper Tigers, to the point where in very strong winds, the Paper Tigers can be the quickest to the finish, or be beaten by only one or two Windrush Super Sloops.

One of the main advantages of the Paper Tiger is its ability to tack and accelerate quickly. This advantage obviously becomes more apparent in shifty conditions, when many of the production cats will sail large knocks to avoid tacking, while Paper Tigers will sail the shifts.

The Paper Tiger is most vulnerable in light and steady conditions, when the boats with more sail area and less tacking ability make the most of these conditions. It is important to note that the Paper Tiger has the smallest sail of the common cats. It has 100sqft compared with (I think) 110sqft for a Windrush cat rig and 120sqft for a Maricat cat rig. (Please correct me if these figures are wrong.)

Regards,

Dave Stumbles

Koonawarra Bay SC

[TornadoSport260]

So what you are saying Dave is:

The PT = a Lotus Exige (compact, light weight, handles well, great power to weight ratio)

The Windrush 14 = a Subaru WRX Sti (not bad weight, good power to weight ratio, good acceleration)

The Maricat 4.3 = a Holden Monaro (a reinvented muscle car, heavy, not the greatest power to weight ratio, but in the right conditions a leathal weapon nonetheless)

Any thoughts?

[Darryl J Barrett]

Alpha Omega F14????

[TornadoSport260]

Though Koonawarra Y/s's are probably the most realistic for PT, Windrush and Mari (though Mari will change with Foamies).

But the H14 has never been raced to any great length at Koonawarra regattas, mainly due to the decline of the class.

[Emmessee]

Very funny car comparisons there too.

[TornadoSport260]

Alpha Omega F14 = A mid 70's Ferrari, still in the shed due to restorations...

[This message has been edited by TornadoSport260 (edited 17 July 2007).]

[TornadoSport260]

So when are you buying a foam Windy - emmessee? Gotta be easier to sail than the A, u had at Hervey Bay. I ditched my T coz of cost and am more than happy back on a Windy.

[Darryl J Barrett]

ENZO seems more appropriate?