TornadoSport260 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Another great regatta at the Koonawarra Bay 14ft Regatta. Shame that numbers were down across the entire regatta. The 5 windies that made the trip were greeted with a 15-18knt SE which held for R1, R2 & R3 were lighter with 5-12knts. R4 on sunday morning was around 5-12knts and R5 was stronger at 10-15knts. Warren Pfeffer got away to a great start in R1 only to be caught by an invisible gust on the 2nd reach. (Tony Zara on his maricat was also caught by the invisible gust). Michael Pfeffer came through for the race win courtesy of his fathers capsize, fortunately Tony Sanderson managed to recover after ripping the clew strap out of his near new main to hold onto 2nd with Warren in 3rd & Rohan Pura in 4th. R2 in the much lighter wind was closer with Ross Fyfe coming out due to the lighter breeze. Michael won with Warren 2nd, Ross 3rd, Tony 4th & Rohan 5th. R3 was alittle stronger than R2 but not a whole lot. Warren & Ross got great starts to lead around the top mark with Michael in 3rd. After some good reaching the top 3 rounded the bottom mark in a tight bunch. Places exchanged up the work with Ross leading & Warren 2nd and Michael 3rd. The next windward Michael got a few extra puffs up the right and opened out a gap to Warren & Ross. After leading by 5mins at the bottom mark for the last time Michael went right in a dying breeze and Ross & Warren went left an took advantage of more consistent breeze and a 35degree lefthand shift to cross ahead of Michael. Ross 1st, Warren 2nd, Michael 3rd, Rohan 4th & Tony 5th. R4 on Sunday morning was light and once again Warren was off with Michael & Ross left to do some catchup work. It closed to within a few boat lengths at the wing mark and Ross assumed the lead. Warren got ahead up the next work by sailing the shifts to perfection, to lead Ross & Michael. Michael played some good gusts down the run to pass Warren only to have Ross sail a few gusts better and lead at the bottom. Ross went out to the left with Michael and Warren heading for a big gust up the middle. Michael lead from Ross & Warren at the top with Tony & Rohan in 4th & 5th. Ross held a gust a fraction longer than Warren to get around the wing mark and shoot off toward Michael at a rapid rate with Warren left to ponder where the gust came from the let Ross get away. Final places Michael 1st, Ross 2nd, Warren 3rd, Tony 4th & Rohan 5th. R5 was stronger with the southerly eagerly waiting to belt in. Warren was off like a lightning bolt as had been the norm across the regatta with Michael some distance back then Tony, Ross & Rohan. Michael held a puff along the first reach to edge onto the back of Warren by the wing mark. From there Warren & Michael pushed each other to create a gap back to Tony. By the finished Warren was 1min back from Michael due to a late shift on the lay to the finish and Tony a further 2-3mins behind Warren. Ross came home fourth and the ever improving Rohan 5th. Results Overall 1st Michael Pfeffer - RUSH 6327 - 1,1,3,1,1 - 4 2nd Warren Pfeffer - HOT PEPPER 6314 - 3,2,2,3,2 - 9 3rd Ross Fyfe - YABBY 6264 - DNC,3,1,2,4 - 10 4th Tony Sanderson - GROOVE THING 6346 - 2,4,5,4,3 - 13 5th Rohan Pure - DUBBLUPP 6357 - 4,5,4,5,5 - 18 All in all a good regatta as per the standard we are used to from KoBSC. Thanks to those who travelled and for the wider 14ft community 'where the bloody hell were you?'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 Agreed Michael, despite the low fleet numbers a great regatta, with Huey delivering variable conditions from the south and Ralph, Otto and crew providing challenging courses. As for your spray at 14ft cat sailing community maybe we need to consider some of my following thoughts. The future of 14ft class sailing in this country is not looking bright, and perhaps we need a forum to discuss this. In NSW The Paper Tigers had good numbers (24) at their state titles, but Mannering Park 14ft regatta (Oct) and PKSC's Kembla Klassic (Nov) numbers were down in the 14' division compared to previous years. It will be interesting to see what numbers the Maricats get to Batemans Bay this Easter! Can the repective class associations continue to run titles independently, or do we need more 14' mixed class titles - particulary at state level? Are we experiencing the same pheunomina as other divisions of off the beach sailing in general? If catamaran sailing is to be reitroduced as an Olympic class then its future roots must rest in the grass roots classes of 14' cats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 The Maricat Association has discussed the formation of a 14ft Cat Association for a while but have not received a lot of encouragement from the other classes. The cost of insurance to our association is a serious concern. The Maricat Association would be very happy to discuss this again. Batemans Bay have added at 14ft division for this year with hopefully a good roll up of 14ft Cats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iOrion Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 Gotta watch out for the clew strap. Rohan is trying to push the 14 foot class with the younger generations. From what I've seen, if you want to learn to sail as a youth you end up doing so with dingys. I haven't been amongst it all as long as the rest of you have but I think Sando is right. How will things be in the next 5 - 10 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 In reply to "where the bloody hell were you?" and what's up with 14' cats generally; - we have 3 Paper Tigers, 2 Windrush and 2 Maricats at the Wallagoot Lake Boat Club, but usually only 2 or 3 boats race each week. Some are just casual sailors who dont sail very often. - Some (including me) also have a dinghy which we race with girlfriend as crew, and sail the cat on more selfish occasions. After trekking up for the PT States, couldn't justify going back to the same club 2 weeks later; instead training for Twofold Bay Regatta on NS14 1795 "the Power and the Passion". - although a Windrush has been club champion the past few years, it is an old boat with old sails and he feels likely to come last at states so wont bother trying, and has work commitments most sundays. - similarly the Maricats are old boats, and not likely to trek up to batemans bay. The prospect of sailing a major event a bit intimidating for them. - in Mallacoota there are a bunch of 14' cats, which dont race but just enjoy blasting across the Lake in a stiff breeze. The trend at our club has been increasing numbers, in both cats and monohulls. I credit this to: - regular articles and photos in the local papers - running "Try Sailing Day" last November, which pulled 60 people - running a sailing school every January, booked out at capacity 14 people the past two years - club boats available so newbies can learn sailing and about boats before purchasing their own More about the WLBC: http://www.thebegavalley.org.au/wlbc.html We're looking forward to the annual regatta March 12-13, and welcome any 14' cats! Slowly the newbies are developing their skills and becoming more ready for major events. A few will be attending their first regatta when we go to Twofold Bay on the weekend; it's less than an hour away and caters to all divisions, with around 90 boats in total making exciting racing. More about Twofold Bay Regatta: http://www.twofoldbayyc.yachting.org.au/?ID=44132 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Totally agree with all Rodney & Tony H have said. The idea of a NSW 14' Catamaran Association represented by all class associations would be good. They could liaise with clubs hosting 14' regattas and work to introduce B & C classes to attract the developing sailor and those that have not so new geared up boats. How do we bring it to the table for discussion and invite the respective associations? Mick Colecliffe or yourself Rodney for Maricats, Warren Pfeffer for Windrush, Ralf Skea for PT's, Arrows?, Hobies and Nacra 430's - have I missed anyone? In this way we can cooperate in holding our respective state titles at major regattas to boost numbers. It was obvious that the 14' regatta at Koonawarra last weekend suffered because the PT states were held only two weeks previously - and maybe the mari's could not afford to travel with their titles to be held at Batemans Bay over Easter. Tony Sanderson Windy S/S 6346 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 What can I say. I remember days of big cat regattas. Days when most people that owned competitive boats travelled alot. I remember being a kid sailing my Windrush at the Forster Wild Cat regatta and there was around 220 OTB cats there... I was 12, on an old bulkhead boat we bought for $500 from Dubbo (on the way to the 98 nationals at Yarrawonga...) at the first Wild Cat regatta I'd sailed without crewing for dad. I had Ryan Tutt as a crew/co-skipper (we swapped for a few races), we had an old set of Mylars from his dad and low and behold we cross the line in R1 less than 30secs behind Ryans dad (he'd placed at nationals before...). I was pretrified that regatta because there was hundreds of boats around me... We were racing in a 14ft fleet of around 30 boats... I can also remember the hayday of the Koonawarra regatta with 30+ boats. Mainly Mari's, PT's & Windy's. I'd say that now there is more 14ft cats racing in NSW than there was then but far less travel to regattas. Its a shame and a disappointment if you ask me. I'm not sold that the idea of a 14ft Association will get people to travel either. If there was to be one what would be the purpose of it? What would it aim to achieve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iOrion Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 I know there's five of us with W14 at Mannering Park, but what about the rest of the state? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Antony, there are 5 W14's at Port Kembla (Lake Illawarra) and a couple down south at Wallagoot. Michael, to communicate - mainly to liaise and cooperate in the sharing of resources when it comes to hosting state and national titles. Your story about sailing your first Windy in a big regatta at 12 got me thinking about our talks last Saturday regarding development of Cat sailing at clubs like Pt Kembla, Mannering Park, Kurnell etc. Has there ever been any thought given to a development class within the Windrush 14 class? Similar to the Laser Formula with three different sail sizes. A smaller mast and sail area for junior developement - possibly raced with maximum crew weight of 55kgs or sloop at 100kg as an example. This would have to make the boat more appealing to families. Maybe it is also time to get Windrush with Rohan on board as NSW Windrush distributor, to consider updating technology again with a carbon mast and a flat top sail - I'm ranting on a bit, but hope you get the gist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iOrion Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I had an interesting conversation about this with Rohan recently. It would be great if Windrush were to go back to the drawing board and pull out some updates. As Rohan mentioned, people are really only interested in older boats that are affordable. Less demand for the class, less requirement to update it and at the moment it looks like Windrush are focusing on development of F18/Tornado classss at the moment anyhow. From what I've seen there is by far no shortage of Maricats on the East Coast and not only in club but available to purchase as well - that could be half an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 A Windrush 14 development class. Its an idea certainly, how much of a market is there for it? Not to sure. But if you did it with the conventional mast & say a 2/3 mainsail & the standard jib (basically cut the lower panel or 2 from a mylar main). Then the boat would be able to be handled by someone that is younger. I only say use the conventional mast so that when they are older they dont have to buy a whole new mast, just a new sail. Cost is still up there though. Not sure how to get around that because a boat is $1500-2500 and a junior main would be $1000. As for technological updates to a Windrush. I'd like to see a better rear beam with and I-beam traveller that is that 1" or 2" wider. A carbon tip or full carbon mast with a carbon boom. But it all comes down the $$$ and who would develop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 A square top main wont make any real difference to us, because we already have a large roached main. We have a fair amount of cloth up high anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Now here is an idea - a zip in panel along a batten pocket section for the lower panel or two - now there is a challenge for a sail maker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Just put reef points in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 There are those like mad-about-cats in SA and around the world talking about F12 for kids. The path I have taken with Zac is that he crewed with me for about 3 years. He then sailed an Arafura Cadet for a few regattas, then we put the AC rig on a standard Maricat, now he sails full cat rig..at 13 and he has beaten quite a few older more experienced sailors. So the equipment is there, it is just a matter of working through the process if the parents and kids are keen. There are also "resort" sails around that fit on Maris and Windies with reduced sail area. The only issue with a smaller kids and a big boat is if they capsize but if the club and adults watch and assist then that can be overcome. Wagga also ran successful learn to sail programme with club boats. Gary Williams ran the course. Travelling to regattas is time consuming and expensive and with plenty of other things on. Last week end our kids had 4 games of cricket, soccer rep training and a swimming carnival....and lots of dragons to kill with a mouse. The Maricat Association has given up on stand alone States and Nats due to the cost. We used to have Maricat only start lines and even single configuration startlines but that is a thing of the past. A 14ft association would help coordinate attendance at regatta and save insurance costs. Regattas like Manno cater for what you call the "B" fleet. They have an adjusted Yardstick for old sails, old boats. Oh we still have the 10ft Sprite minicat available free to a good home. Great for kids (under 45kg) to have their first cat. photos available) !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 And not to mention Manno's Yardstick also caters for the older, fatter sailor - not mentioning any names, but self included! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iOrion Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 W14 DC would be interesting. Your ideal updates would possibly mean that existing yardsticks would be redundant right, Michael? There are no 14s that are on par with an A Class/Tornado as far as performance goes, correct? Is there perhaps a gap in the market where a performance/race spec 14 foot could fill? An F type 14 perhaps - something that could be sailed 1UP? THAT would be very cool. Someone mentioned to me that an A Class was something along the lines of $30k I couldn't see a 14 footer costing a great deal more than a brand new W14 SS. Under $20k (after development, depending on demand obviously)? Just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Antony, it would make our current yardstick redundant. The cost could also destroy the class. Many classes have been rocked by the way updates were made. Aka Nacra 5.8s, Taipan 4.9s (F16) etc etc. A guy by the name of Darryl (stops by here every so often) created an Alpha Omega F14. Full carbon etc etc etc. It is 1up, with main and kite. Very fast but still no where near an A-Class or Tornado (you could never design a 14ft cat that fast, after all waterline length becomes a limiting factor sooner or later). Problem... it was $17k + freight + trailer... At the end of the day for those kind of $$$, if you want more performance you'd be better off buying a F16 Viper or Taipan. We race 14's for a reason. We love sailing but there is a limit to the $ spent... Personally its why i'm not sailing Tornado's anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iOrion Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 True, and I suppose that the Tornado's sail area vs weight Hulls don't weigh much anyway. I'm carrying mine around on their own with nothing else attached and I hate lifting stuff. Supposing all the ancillaries are where the weight perhaps. CF components would help there a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 You could knock 5-7.5kg per hull out by using carbon. take 5-6kg out of the mast. 2kg out of the boom. around 3kg out of each beam. Suddenly your 20-25kg lighter and you've not touched rudders, rudder castings, sails, rigging wires, blocks, ropes. But you've just added a shit load of money. The waterline length thing isnt really to do with stability. Its more to do with length overall. There is a forumla that calculates the max speed of a hull and one of the critical things is waterline length. I'm not a marine engineer but i know enough to say it would be near impossible to create a 14ft cat that is faster than a 20ft cat. Without using hydrofoils... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 At the end of the day, at some point we should all learn to sail what we have and be satisfied with that. I can't sail a Windrush to 100% of its performance 100% of the time. So I'm still learning. Its still the fastest of the conventional 14ft designs as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 the other one with the AO F14 that isnt included in the price is the cost of yearly maintenance and insurance. The insurance would be more (couple hundred bucks) & the addition of the spinnaker adds significant cost. The likelyness of damaging the kite is high and also they only last 2-3seasons. If you capsize you signifcantly increase your risk of damage because you now have 3m of spi pole and sock to land on (been there, done that many times on the H16 spi). All in all it just gets more and more expensive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iOrion Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 The waterline length thing isnt really to do with stability. Its more to do with length overall. There is a forumla that calculates the max speed of a hull and one of the critical things is waterline length. I'm not a marine engineer but i know enough to say it would be near impossible to create a 14ft cat that is faster than a 20ft cat. Without using hydrofoils... That's actually interesting. Foils change the drag coefficient significantly. Reminds me of the two moths I saw hammering along when we were out in Botany. I had to look twice when I saw them. Its still the fastest of the conventional 14ft designs as well... Of course - which surprises me that there aren't many out there sailing them? Well, maybe not on the east coast anyway. Maricats aplenty here, but perhaps not so much on the west coast. the other one with the AO F14 that isnt included in the price is the cost of yearly maintenance and insurance. The insurance would be more (couple hundred bucks) & the addition of the spinnaker adds significant cost. The likelyness of damaging the kite is high and also they only last 2-3seasons. If you capsize you signifcantly increase your risk of damage because you now have 3m of spi pole and sock to land on (been there, done that many times on the H16 spi). All in all it just gets more and more expensive... Ha! What are you doing landing on the spi pole?! Pitch pole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 trying to turn a 14' cat into super-fast cat is just silliness. The great thing about 14' cats is their responsiveness; able to steer up & down swells, tack quickly, and have great feel on the tiller. Adding loads of sails, extra width and trapezing crew to balance the sails just makes it all a straight-line dragster and detracts from the boat's good points. As mentioned, another great aspect of 14' cats is their cheap price; working cats on trailer for under $1000. Good racing boats for a few $k. This makes them ideal for newbies, for whom the slightly lower speeds is safer, and lack of kite more appropriate. We dont need to change anything; recognise the advantages of 14' cats and get people sailing them! It's reaching out to the public who have never experience the thrill, that's the challenge. BTW a couple at Wallagoot seeking a cheap old 14' cat to learn to sail on. Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iOrion Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 It was only curiosity, and kind of a "where to from here" type thing. The great thing about these boats is the fact that they've been around for such a long time and they are actually being raced, but there will come a time in the future where they will most likely cease to be produced and cease to be raced. That brings us back to that question again. What is the future like for 14' Cats? I think Doug at Mannering Park still has a sloop rigged bulkhead that he was selling? Hulls were in reasonably good condition when I saw them, sails were perhaps a half of the way through their life? Mylar too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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