TornadoSport260 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Brass monkey last year was great. There was people there from all over. The winds were kind and the temperature bear able. I did'nt see you there. You have now unfortunately discouraged some people from attending this years event with your negative comments. Please explain with your normal eloquence how to rectify the situation. The event from what I saw is a badge of honour to be shared among those who were dedicated enough to attend. Thats great that you had a wonderful time, as I'm sure everyone else did, as I have also had at past winter regattas and that I did have doing the CYCA Winter series last year. But as i've stated in posts after the one you picked up on, to me it does not present as the best regatta to include in a travellers series. And yes some years you get great weather but the likeliness of getting not so great weather that can dwindle numbers is significantly higher at that time of year. As for influencing others in regards to their attendance of that regatta, I doubt it, I'm not that influential. Anyway I've explained myself more than enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Nelson Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Details of Sail Sydney are in the Regatta thread Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humungus2 Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Bring on the Brass Monkey I say. I can't wait to get on the water again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Just skimming thru this post - I C that no 'established' Sydney clubs are involved...? Isn't that a little disappointing? Could we speak to Concorde/Ryde and/or Kurnell Cat Club to see if they would be keen to host an event centred around 14's? My take on the Travellers Series is that yes, it's EXCELLENT for the sailors involved, and I will try to attend every regatta that's nominated – however 1 event at least should be publicized as an event for showcasing 14ft cat sailing... to the general public... I guess what I'm saying is that 1 regatta/event should be seen as the 'showcase' or 'summit' event - something along the lines of a 'CatExpo'... around which all other events/regattas were arranged... The Australia Day Regatta at Kurnell for example would seem to lend itself to this... any thoughts? Reason I would nominate this event instead of Sail Sydney, is that Kurnell Cat Club in particular has a club-house dedicated to catamarans - whereas Sail Sydney, even though it will be a big event, has no real intent to promote cats... having said that I would certainly like to see at least 6 Windy's there... Biased, biased I know... But, maybe there is a clash of events that would preclude The Australia Day Regatta? Hmmm, yes I am a Sydney-based sailor, but I do seem to recall there was just a little of my prompting involved to get this series on the agenda again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Previous posts suggest that Australia Day Regatta at Kurnell is a single, very long race. This isn't suitable for a traveller series or demonstration event. A series of short races over 1 weekend would be more appropriate. Similarly I dont plan on travelling to BYRA to enter a single race. Traditionally Paper Tigers have NSW State Titles on Australia Day weekend. This year we've changed to October to suit typical winds at Wagga. Sail Sydney seems a great promotional opportunity, as similar past events have included great media coverage. However at this stage we dont know where or what the event will be, or if all our classes will be allowed to attend. YA's elitism could ruin this event. As a showcase to the public; even when I've had interested spectators with a good vantage point, they weren't able to follow the races and found watching boring. If we can get cameras on board and on the power boats, then we can showcase race highlights on YouTube. Getting newbies involved would seem to require this first spark of interest, followed an opportunity to get on a boat. Next season there will be opportunities for filming at the PT States, Mannering Park, YMCA Canberra and Kembla before Try Sailing Day in November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Maybe if we approached KCC or Ryde/Concord to host a 2-day event that saw one of the days devoted to showcasing cat sailing - and the other day to racing - then everybody's happy? My particular concern is that there's no event in Sydney - apart from the BYRA race at the end of the season - just way too late to get public attention... Surely we need an event at the beginning or middle of the season to assure warm weather... and that is reasonably central to Sydney-siders? Sail Sydney - whilst holding out the promise of a good regatta - is more 'general' in nature – promoting sailing – or so it would appear – and would probably frown on being 'hijacked' by proactive class associations doing their own 'thing'... even though the 14's are the logical entry point for cats... the other 'problem' is that it's held on Pittwater - instead of a natural amphitheater like Sydney Harbour - which I personally think is a mistake... North Shore people are 'savers' - we're much more likely to get new sailors from the Western or Southern suburbs... people who are prepared to live for the moment... and spend money on their new hobby... I also think many are intimidated by the pretensions of Upper North Shore/Bayview/Pittwater scene... and won't attend for just that reason... It's not an 'everyman's' venue IMHO... I do appreciate the Traveller's Series is primarily for the sailors, but it could also serve as a vehicle for promotion - seeing that we'll have most 'introductory' 14ft classes represented? I guess it comes down to where we feel most new cat sailors will be found - regionally - North & South of Sydney – or Sydney itself? Which event/regatta can be promoted as the 'hub' or 'showcase' event? And, am I just wasting my time on this push to get just one event of the Traveller's Series utilised in this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Nelson Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Palm Beach Sailing Club ON PITTWATER Palm Beach Sailing Club on Pittwater is one of the WORLDs most successful multihull clubs We sail on Pittwater and over 30% of our membership lives in Western Sydney. A snippett of recent results Last 2 youth champions Multi hull division ISAF Worlds Current F16 Europe Champion (Defacto Worlds) Won 3 division World Master's Games in Sydney Current Hobie 16 Youth, Master's and Grandmasters Etc Etc Etc Home of the Wave program which provides an entrance in to cat sailing for everyone regardless of social economic position. Home of the Bottom Gudgeon program, a program to put people intio 14s at a reasonable cost. A comprehensive and inclusive training program. By the way if you want a Harbour event look to the 18Fts League's Ice Breaker (I think) in August. Cats are invited. You will also find the remnants of Middle Harbour Cat club sailing with us. Thanks Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted May 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Rohan, showcasing is what most clubs do with 'Try Sailing' Day and the other open days, adult sailing programs etc. Your idea of showcasing - parading boats on public sydney harbour beaches and give joy rides to onlookers IMHO is not the answer in building 14' Cat sailing. Building club fleet numbers at sailing clubs is the only sustainable way to build class numbers. This is what Andrew is talking about. This is what Darcy at Toukley and Mick C has done at Mannering park, and this is what we are trying to do at Port Kembla. I started this thread on a 'Travellers Series' to guage interest. Given the number of hits is well over 1,500 and 9 pages of comments I kind of think it will work. There are enough established regattas without creating more. Let's get this season happening and see if we can share the love with other alternate regattas in 2012 - 2013. Cheers Sando. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Sure Sando, the club efforts are always gonna be the grass roots of the sport, however it appears that boat shows aren't cost-effective for 'niche' manufacturers, so there is no way to get a whole lot of eyes on the sport at once... I wasn't suggesting that more regattas need to be included, only that one regatta or event is seen as 'key' - or way to help promote the sport to the general public... I'm just not sure that Sail Sydney is that regatta.. because of its location... Try Sailing Days are good too... but localized efforts... I'm trying to find a vehicle to help promote the sport effectively... and not simply preach to the converted... BTW, has the KCC Top Gun Regatta been considered...? This may be a good Sydney regatta to include... this was 6-7 November last year, so doesn't appear to conflict with the other short-listed events... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Further to my last post, the Lake Wallagoot event is just soooooo very far away for many up this way – (pretty much half-way to Melbourne) – that maybe we can make it equal standing with the KCC Top Gun Regatta, and let sailors choose which one they prefer to attend? In this way, we could have at least one major Sydney regatta incorporated that was independent and outside of Sail Sydney... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Rohan, don't mind the idea of adding Top Gun at KCC to the mix alongside of Wallagoot - and equal standing would be OK with one race in the series. Any more equal standing regattas will defeat the purpose. I think if the traveller series works this season - a rethink based on support will give consideration to a different mix of regattas in 2012-13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Compiled a list of all NSW and ACT events that a 14' cat might attend: http://catsailor.net/forums/showthread.php?4097-NSW-amp-ACT-Regattas-2011-2012 Maybe we could use a high-point scoring system (eg; MotoGP or F1), include all the events, and call it the Leyland Brothers Trophy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 OK - based on Sandos thumbs up on the KCC Top Gun alternative to Wallagoot... I'll make a commitment to attend these (with a 'yes'): 1/ Mannering Park ASC 14' Cat regatta, Lake Macquarie 8 & 9 October (yes) 2/ KCC Top Gun, Botany Bay, 5 & 6 November - dates to be confirmed with KCC (yes) 3/ Kembla Klassic PKSC, Lake Illawarra 26 & 27 November (yes) 4/ Sail Sydney, Pitwater - Pittwater 17 & 18 December (yes) 5/ Koonawarra Bay SC 14' Regatta, Lake Illawarra 12 & 13 February (yes) 6/ Lake Walagoot SC Regatta 10 & 11 March (a BIG maybe - depends on who else will make the trek from Sydney) 7/ Toukley SC, Commodore Darcy to find a date in April... (yes) 8/ Batemans Bay Regatta is 21 & 22 (yes) 9/ BYRA Peter Loft Marathon 6th May ( 1 race - presentation and BBQ) (yes) Whilst it would be nice to also do the SFS event on Sydney Harbour in August - tacking a cat in or out of Careening Cove with all the moored boats would be MURDER... but I'm up4 it if we can get a solid commitment from at least another 10 to 15 boats.. and at least 4 to 6 Windy's... This event would be an excellent promotional opportunity for the 14's... coming as it does at the very beginning of the season... For those who didn't fancy going to Lake Wallogoot, I notice that PBSC has its Marathon in March... altho' it's a Saturday (one day) event... but it would be a nice gesture to support PBSC's effort to get a14' fleet re-established there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Am I the only one that thinks 9 events is too many? I have a budget (both time and money) and 9 events is beyond it. How about everyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Hmmm, is (on average) 1 per month too many? January seems to be free, and as suggested KCC Top Gun and Lake Walla-galoot... haha... are gonna have equal footing... so we could still have 6 or 7 out of 9 to count...? I'm sure not everyone will do every event, but those that do will have a greater choice of events to attend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 PP; Wallagoot Lake is a convenient 10km from my place! :rolleyes: We are a convenient distance to sailors from Canberra, Eden, Batemans Bay and Jindabyne. What you would enjoy if you came down here is a beautiful lake, surrounded by forest, with only swans, eagles and other wildlife competing for use of the lake. You may also notice a different culture, where we try to support and encourage the efforts of others, building our club with friendliness and good times. I also worked out a budget to attend all the regattas and PT titles. Over 9000km driving, 45 nights away and minimum cost of $5k. I need a sponsor! Based on the criteria of supporting clubs that sail 14' cats, having a weekend of good racing, and sharing good times, my short list is: 8 & 9 October: Mannering Park 14' Cat Regatta. http://www.manneringparkasc.org.au 27 & 28 November: Kembla Klassic. http://www.pksc.com.au/kk.html 11 & 12 February: Koonawarra Bay 14' Cat Regatta. http://www.koonawarrabaysc.org.au/ 10 & 11 March: Wallagoot Lake Boat Club Regatta (Bega). http://www.thebegavalley.org.au/wlbc.html Even there, I may have to scratch out Mannering Park, as PT States are at Wagga a week earlier. I think the 14' cat traveller series is already a success, as it has raised awareness of clubs that sail 14' cats, and great events for next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Well, I dunno... I just doubt that you'll get too many coming all the way there... and while I'm also happy to travel to Bateman's Bay, Lake Walla-galoot... is a real stretch... but I certainly wouldn't mind doing it every 2nd year... I guess that we just have to compromise somehow and it's hard to keep everyone happy... for example we haven't seriously considered Forster - right? If you expect reasonable numbers there anyway, then I assume that most will be coming from south of Sydney and the south-western regions of NSW? I noticed that Michael and I are happy to travel to Bateman's Bay, but both feel that Wallagoot is just too far for those based North of Sydney... at least this year... The other thing is that it would benefit the 14ft classes as a whole to attend more regattas where the 14's have been absent for a number of years, to help the whole scene regenerate itself.. and that's why I'm trying to get some interest back into Sydney regattas - coz that's where we're more likely to get new recruits? Am I wrong about that? Maybe... but if everything happens outside of Sydney, then I believe we're missing an opportunity... anyway, isn't it nice to have just a couple of options available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just One More Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I firmly believe we should have 6 regattas, 7 if we need be, some of the regattas will be to far for some depending on where one lives. So if that's the case don't go. That's why we have drops. The numbers attending will fluctuate around this. Try the ones that have been suggested and depending on attendance and the wishes of those attending change some or all the following season. I would like to do 6 regattas next year and possibly 6 different ones the following year including inland clubs. Meet different people and sail at different venues. Last year Wallagoot was a great weekend and I'm going back even if it is not on the traveller's series. The best way to promote the class is to let people see how much fun the 14's are having at these events, we don't need big promo days, we have the try sail day for that. So firm up the program and lets go sailing. Paul L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Yeh, that's OK, I agree that 6 only should count, and allow the 9 suggested to be available to those sailors that want to attend... I like Michael's suggestion to keep the BYRA marathon as the last event - coming as it does at the end of the season – and this can be a very challenging event, heading out around Lion Island in the ocean swells is certainly a memorable experience - and they do have the BBQ and clubhouse for presentation - so this is a nice venue to hold the Traveller's Series presentation... If we keep the options open, then surely we'll get more attending? If we limit it to 6 events, only 4 of which count, isn't that a recipe for only attending the minimum number of events? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I agree with Paul. Rohan, 9 events is just too many. Tony is already working on the slate of events suggested previously. Can we please put this to bed and get to promoting the series. 3mths still the season starts again and it will go very quickly. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Hey Mike, I never suggested that any1 should feel compelled to attend all 9 - that was never my intention... I was attempting to find a way to allow those involved to attend as many events as possible, or as was comfortable given their location... I'm not sure that competitors who attend only 4 'away' regattas could seriously consider themselves 'travellers' - could they? I hope I'm not being unkind or one-eyed, but It appears that most who've commented want to do 6 events. If that's the case - cool... so why not give sailors a mix of alternate or optional events – that would allow them to more easily attend 6 events? All I've suggested is to put KCC Top Gun as an alternative to either Sail Sydney and/or Wallagoot... coz we really don't know how Sail Sydney will pan out - or that many will want to do Sail Sydney and then attend BYRA at the end of the season... Reason I say that? It's clear that those sailors down south are very reluctant to travel north more than is absolutely necessary... and those up North are similarly reluctant to travel anywhere past Port Kembla... for example to Bateman's Bay – (going on this year's non-attendence) – and I have absolutely NUFFINK against Wallagoot Lake... It's really not that I'm Sydney-centric, I guess I'm simply trying to see the bigger picture... I do notice that you had 7 in your mix, and Darcy suggested 9... and we all think that 6 is the bare minimum in order to truly call this a 'Traveller's Series'... don't we? So is there really a problem-o? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted May 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Ok, we're up to 97 postings and we have a possible 9 regattas from mid north coast to far south coast. Now it is time to; 1/ contact the repective host clubs and make sure they are happy for their regatta to be part of a traveller's series and if they have any special conditions attached. We may not have as many clubs interested as we think, particularly if they don't use KoBSC Yardstick! 2/ the repective state associations - although most have informally responded positively. 3/ address any insurance issues if it is felt there is any liability outside that of the host clubs cover in convening their regattas. 4/ settle on yardstick as KoBSC (Koonawarra Bay) yardstick. 5/ List series with YA NSW 6/ Draft some rules or NOR and settle on an entry fee if needed. Do we want an A & B class to encourage 'newbies' to travel- if so, how will this work? 7/ Perhaps sponsorship can be sought from a marine insurer, cat manufacturer/agent, sail maker, chandler,or like? I'll do the clubs and associations. Will someone else take on drafting rules- maybe someone who arranged Maricat or PT Traveller series in the past. Let's move forward guys - let's turn talk to action. Sando Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Sorry for the late reply. I've been away from computers for a couple of weeks. Some thoughts: - Settle next year's series by starting with (and supporting) the list of nominated events that Sando has compiled. - Review at the end of the season: Determine which clubs were popular, which clubs weren't (but don't discount the impact of poor weather, etc on the numbers at each event, as we have seen very rainy weekends greatly reduce numbers at regattas). - If some events proved unpopular, replace them with others. Alternatively, you could have a core of three or four major regattas every year (say for example Mannering, Kembla Klassic, Koonawarra) and then alternate the others so that smaller events get a go every second year. - There is good reasoning to restrict it to around six events. Too many events means the number of entries may spread thin across them, meaning smaller fleets. Also, if like my club, the 14ft cats are the WHOLE fleet, the club is effectively "closed" when outside events are on and the sailors travel away. Having nine or more events, as well as State, National (and in the case of the PT, an International) Championship, means the local boats may only be at the club about half the season. This could damage the growth of the classes at a local level, potentially offsetting the benefits of the travellers series. - Having organised and scored these sorts of series over many years, I would suggest that you avoid any potential complications like that suggested above about the offset of the two events (Top Gun and Wallagoot). No one forsees the scoring nightmares until they start calculating results! I strongly suggest sticking with the original list of events and avoid complicating it. The Paper Tigers calculate their travellers series by being awarded an overall placing for each regatta so, in their case, six results from six events. This is much easier than using every single race placing, which could be up around 30 results from six events. It also means each event is worth the same to your score, regardless of how many races are scheduled (or completed). You can nominate how many are dropped. The PTs use the low-point scoring system (1st=1 point, 2nd=2, 3rd=3, etc.). DNC is equal to entrants in the series +1 (which will likely increase as the series progresses and more boats compete, but it works for the PTs). Also, as Tony Hastings suggested, the A, B and C grades can be implemented without separating anyone. You nominate the grades people are in and, at the end, whoever is the highest placed in a particular grade is the winner of that grade. Very simple. Regards, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Hey Dave, those are all excellent thoughts... and if what you say about creating a nightmare with the scoring is a reality, then let's shorten the list... but I do feel that central point needs to be validated... is there a simpler way to score things? Is there also a perception that coz there are 9 (possible) events/regattas listed, that participants are compelled to attend all 9? I hope not... but if a competitor is gung-ho enough and really does want to attend as many regattas as possible, then that person has a greater choice about which events he drops... in other words, reward for effort... having said that, it's a highly unlikely scenario anyway... It would seem to me that rather than causing a dilution at certain events, that those who wouldn't realistically travel the distance anyway, will attend another event that was listed - and that was closer or more convenient for their schedule... but of course either scenario is possible... I'm all for simplicity too - however are we being realistic in saying that because 6 events are listed – and some of those events are at 'polar' opposites (North/South-wise), that most of the participants will attend? Like the idea of an A and B Division too... I think I'll stick myself in B - coz I feel like a beginner again after close to 20 years away... Anyway, I think I better be quiet now, as I may well be 'offending' both ends of the spectrum... sigh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Kurnell Catamaran Club, Top Gun Regatta: some correspondence with the club reveals: - date still to be determined, most likely 5 & 6 November, 2011 - open to all off-the-beach cats - 7 races are typically scheduled over the 2 days - they sail windward & return courses (might be worth seeking a wing mark added for 14' cats) - some boats may be stored in the club area, but most are left on the beach - some people may stay in a 'pub tent' at the club, otherwise consult local area accommodation directories Will have to wait until July 9 for Wallagoot AGM to confirm WLBC's response. Scoring; the PT traveller series used the low point system and non-starters penalised with series entrants + 1 points. As the series included the PT state titles, this was a huge penalty. The final placings were mostly determined by how many events the skipper attended. The alternative is a high point scoring system (as used in MotoGP and Formula1), which is: place (points) 1 (25), 2 (20), 3 (16), 4 (13), 5 (11), 6 (10), 7 (9), 8 (8), 9 (7), 10 (6), 11 (5), 12 (4), 13 (3), 14 (2), 15 (1) This system rewards good results, with no penalty for non-starters. It allows each regatta result to be immediately calculated, as opposed to waiting until the series is run to determine the number of entrants and then calculating the DNC scores. Races may be dropped, and overall & B division winners calculated at end of series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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