The second Olympic Cat

[berthos]

I noticed that there is a survey on the catsailor site regarding the second olympic cat class.

None of the options to vote on included a single handed cat.

I feel that without a doubt the second cat class if there were to be one should and will be a single hander.

The A-class on the face of it would seem to be a good choice.The A-class however is a development class. A development class is not suitable so we need to look elsewhere.

There are a few choices that may be suitable. Nacra 16sq. , Taipan 4.9 cat, Hobie 17, Hobie FX-1.

The boat that would get my vote is based on the A-class but has a wider beam. The Marstrom M-18.

Below is Bundy's impressions of the M-18 and his take on the ISAF's opinion of it after the ISAF's evaluation event. If you want any of the reports on the other classes evaluated let me know and I'll post them.

M18 (High Performance Single Handed Dingy)

 

General comments about the boat

 

This is THE boat for the single handed discipline.  Everyone that sailed this boat was so impressed and amazed at its speed and responsiveness (Even the single-handed skiff test sailors). The M18 along with the A Class were the big winners from the Evaluation Event, I believe ISAF have gone away from this event bewildered by these single-handed boats and will definitely be searching for a way to implement these boats for the 2008 Olympics.

The M 18 is based on the hulls from the Marstrom A-cat which has been raced successfully (first in the 1999 North Americans) and proven to be a very durable boat in the class. The M -18 is based on the A Class principle, however is 20 centimetres wider which provides a significant extra amount of performance at the same time making the boat more accessible to lighter crews in a breeze.

The boat is produced with autoclaved pre-preg materials. The tolerances are within 1 mm and the building weight +/- 200 grams. The boats are built to the same high standards that the Tornado Class has experienced for many years.

Technical data

Length: 5.5m

Width: 2.5m

Mast Length: 8.5m

Total Weight: 70kg

Sail -Mainsail 13.94m2

Weight of hull 18kg each

Weight of mast 14kg rigged

 

Design: Sail Center of Swedem

 

Price :

Complete package ready to race with all options: 100 000 SEK ex VAT, freight, packaging and sails (based on the 98000 SEK price for the A-cat).

Sorry I dont have any photos of the boat completely rigged.

Regards

Darren Bundock

AYF Test Sailor Representive

Photos:

[This message has been edited by berthos (edited 23 June 2002).]

[Guest Common Mann]

Methinks that the second cat should be a boat that the average weekend sailor has on a boat trailor at home. Something that comes out of a stock standard mould and easily rigged and sailed without many "go fast" options.

If the Laser is to be the new dingy type Olympic class, then the cat division needs something similat to promote both cats and sailing at a reasonable price. Low Tech should be the guiding principle.

If it is a single handed cat then maybe it should be in the 4.3 size such as a Hobie Turbo or Nacra 14 sq/4.5.

This would appeal to many more than the sophisticated and expensive options that are currently being touted around at the moment.

Let the sport grow from its roots!!!!

Average Joe

[Guest Weekend Sailor]

Couldnt agree more with Common Man.

Lets have a simple boat sailed in the Olympics.

The Mystere 4.3 has been selected as boat for 2002 USSA Youth Cat National Championship. Why not use it!!!!

See the link

http://www.cat-alist.com/headlines/mystere4_3.htm

Worth a look.

[berthos]

Just been rereading the above veiws and I don't agree for the following reasons.

When we are considering the Olympic games we are considering the best sailors in the world. The best sailors in the world don't want to sail a boat that is simple to sail. They want a boat to sail that is a challenge and a test of sailings wide range of skills.

The Laser is not a simple boat to sail. It is a very difficult boat to get the most out of. They just happen to be cheap as well.

Sailing needs to be built from the roots for sure. In the same way that motor sports are built from the roots. When someone starts racing they might begin on a go-kart, progress to sedan, then to formula ford onto grand prix. Drivers go through stages of driving progressively more challenging vehicles.

Sailing is similar. We start off on simple low powered boats and move on to faster more challenging boats. As cat sailors we do anyway. Dinghy sailors seem to be different. As catsailors we do it for the speed (well that's what appeals to me). The faster and more challenging the better. Elite cat sailors should be sailing fast challenging boats.

Another consideration in this debate is the perception of sailing as a sport to the wider community. The Olympics is a great place for a sport to gain exposure. Watching the Olympics might be the only time that young Joey Public sees cat racing. If sees sailing that is fast and wild he will be much more interested to try it than watching something more sedate. We live in an age of thrills and spills and speed. This is what appeals to the young person today (mostly).

By all means start the youngsters off on 4.3 metre sloops. But let's put our elite sailors on something that will challenge them and entertain the spectators.

Berthos.

[mal gray]

I have to disagree with Berthos. Cat sailing should not be compared to motor racing.I hope we (Catsailors) are respected as RACERS rather than SPEED JUNKIES. Its maybe true to say that some catsailors move on to faster and faster boats and perhaps this is why many catsailors have given the sport away. Perhaps they run out of options if speed is their only motivation.

If you are a RACER, once you are going fast, the next challenge is to sail smarter. You then aim to succeed by sailing well not purely by going faster. Speed is not the only objective.

If you are a SPEED JUNKIE then you are destined for disappointment. Someone is always going to come up with something faster.

I've raced slow monohulls and found the racing to be exhiliarating because of the closeness of the boats.In fact, as the speed of racing boats increases, so does the difference in boatspeeds. The closeness of the racing decreases.

I'd much rather go fast and do all that stuff, but I don't consider ultimate speed to be the ultimate reason why I sail a catamaran.

The second Olympic Cat should be way different to the Tornado which is a two man high performance boat which due to expense has become quite inaccessable to the average sailor. It is spectacular but would appear to many novices to be way too complicated and difficult (which it is, for a beginner!)

Maybe something less expensive, more widespread throughout the world and therefore more accessable, able to be sailed by mixed crews would encourage new people to take up the sport. It should be a supplied boat competition.

[Ants]

I think Mal has hit the nail on the head in his last sentence, if there is going to be a second catamaran class in the olympics it needs to be a mixed crew or all female crew.

At the moment in my opinion sailing and particularly cat sailing is very male dominated, and so we are cutting off interest to a large percent of possible sailors. This might be caused by the trend to bigger and faster cats.

Therefore I would like to see the Taipan 4.9 with mixed of all female crew as the next olympic cat (if ever there is to be one).

I don't think it needs to be a simple boat as these are olympic class sailors.

Antony Edwards.

[Guest gosail]

I think they need to be affordable first and formost. The idea of a mixed crew is also appealing.

They can be a simple boat as these are Olympic class sailors and they should be talented enough to make the simpler types of boats "sing".

Tuning and boat set up as well as crew work would be the issue in seperating the boats over the course, not just dollars, with the winners being those with the biggest budgets.

This would draw people to the sport.

An analogy to this would be the axium that Holden used for the Production car racing at Bathurst. Race on Sunday, sell on Monday.

This would also hold true if the second Olympic cat is a production cat that's raced at any club. You could feel like an Olympian onboard your second hand XXXXXX? [Hobie Turbo; Windrush; Maricat;Nacra Mozzie;whatever]

[Guest gosail]

I think they need to be affordable first and formost. The idea of a mixed crew is also appealing.

They can be a simple boat as these are Olympic class sailors and they should be talented enough to make the simpler types of boats "sing".

Tuning and boat set up as well as crew work would be the issue in seperating the boats over the course, not just dollars, with the winners being those with the biggest budgets.

This would draw people to the sport.

An analogy to this would be the axium that Holden used for the Production car racing at Bathurst. Race on Sunday, sell on Monday.

This would also hold true if the second Olympic cat is a production cat that's raced at any club. You could feel like an Olympian onboard your second hand XXXXXX? [Hobie Turbo; Windrush; Maricat;Nacra Mozzie;whatever]

[Guest round the can]

If the survey held on these pages mean anything, its obvious that the second cat should be a Hobie 16'

[pitchpoledave]

While the Hobie 16 is a very popular boat, it is also very dated. I would like to see a relatively new boat, single person, 16-18 feet long, and relatively inexpensive. Lets not let price drive people away like it has with the tornado class.

[tornado]

An Olympic class draws the best sailors to its class. A simple 'easy boat to sail' would not be in the true spirit of the Olympics.

I believe it is also incorrect to state a cheaper class would make campaigning more accesible to the average sailor. The cost of campaigning any Olympic class is very high and the time commitment is enormous.

Many hours must be spent on the water, in the gym, fixing breakages, writing up proposals and chasing sponsors. It is like a full time job on top of a full time job you will have to work just to stay in the sailing game.

If you want to gain the experience to compete at this level, you will also have to travel to regattas, not only around Australia but the World. This can be very expensive in itself due to Australia's geographical position.

Therefore, the cost of the boat is far from the most expesive part of campaigning. You can not be the 'average' sailor and hope to compete at this level in the future. You must be 100% committed, focused and prepared to put in more than weekend time and weekend money.

I am strongly in favour of a second Olympic class catamaran and beleive that it to should represent the best technology, best performance and require an extreme level of skill to sail.

But what should it be?

I believe we need a single hander such as an M-18 or A Class (If it was't a development class)

I also believe we need female catamaran representation. You could not do to much better than a Taipan 4.9 This boat is also reasonably priced, but a true thoroughbred.

Would it be to much to ask for both (3 cat classes).

Stephen Medwell

Team Tornado'ALIVE'

[berny]

We've already got a big expensive Olympic class catamaran. The next O/cat should be a 14ft single hander to allow for the participation of the masses similar to the mono's. They have a bunch of smaller, more practical Olympic class boats suitable for younger sailors to campaign. They provide options for Joe average to go to the Olympics. We have only one boat and it's big and very expensive, and way beyond the capacity of the 'average' sailor to campaign.

If I knew how to post pics on this forum, I'd post some pics of what I believe might be the perfect boat. I'd like to get the forum's opinion.

Bern

[shy thunder]

wow what would i choose?

Here in Australia we have lost the plot, remember sailing is the mastery of the boat and conditions, racing is a combination of these and the addition of competition of the skippers brain against brain.

Any boat can be mastered but to do this in competition is the challenge.

A single handed cat ....because there is not one in the Olympics.

Doesn't matter if it is complex or simple...as all will sail the same setup boat.

14 or 15 foot/(4.3m) is a nice size for one person.

14 square metres of sail is sufficient...

always can have weight classes to complicate the selection process.

remember KISS

no not the rock band..

keep it simple stupid

and try and keep it cheap and accessible for trailering and storage and to bring the interest back into the cat fraternity as has happened with the laser classes......

oh well the thoughts of an older racer whose olympic aspirations are far behind him but my 7yr old son may one day want to......

retro best maybe a paper tiger or maricat?

what was the last new 14 foot cat sold in sydney?

dp

[tornado]

Forget the price off the boat.....

Sailing at an Olympic level is a professional career which not even every Tornado sailor engages in.

The price off the boat is fairly insignificant when you look at what is involved.

First off all you will need atleast one boat, preferably 2. One to train with in Oz and another to ship and compete with abroad.

You will need a coach to help develop you technique and crew work.

Many sets of sails and work with a sailmaker to develop the latest and fastest combination for the boat and your crew weight.

Experiment with rig settings and spend allot of time on the water tuning the rig and two boat tuning with a partner on a similar boat.

Work on developing equipment on the boat to work more efficiently, less friction and more reliable.

Extensive European campaigning.

A typical Olympic campaign may cost you $100,000 or more per year over a 4 year campaign after you buy the boat. Read my post above.....

The Tornado with the exception of the Mistral sail board is the cheapest Olympic class to campaign.

Due to high build quality of the boat, it has an internationally competitive life of 10 years. Far greater than other Olympic Classes and other catamarans.

Whilst the Tornado sailor could keep his boat for 10 years the Laser (Cheap boat) sailor for example will have to regularly upgate to a new hull as they go soft quiet quick. His sails also have to be replace more often as they flog quiet often and violently whilst hove too. The 49 sailor will also have to regularly replace broken masts.

Catamaran sailors also will have to replace their boats more often to remain at a competitive level. They will also have to replace parts more often compared to a Tornado due to the high quality of parts used on the Marstrom Tornado.

Whilst in the short term a cheaper cat may be more accessible to people, over the 10 year international life span of the Tornado you will spend more money keeping the cheaper boat competitive.

Shy Thunder, with regards to your quote......

Here in Australia we have lost the plot, remember sailing is the mastery of the boat and conditions, racing is a combination of these and the addition of competition of the skippers brain against brain.

A Tornado or any high performance cat is harder to master than a less complicated boat. Mistakes are also punnished greater due to the high speeds they produce.

Berny, with regards to your quote.....

We've already got a big expensive Olympic class catamaran. The next O/cat should be a 14ft single hander to allow for the participation of the masses similar to the mono's. They have a bunch of smaller, more practical Olympic class boats suitable for younger sailors to campaign. They provide options for Joe average to go to the Olympics. We have only one boat and it's big and very expensive, and way beyond the capacity of the 'average' sailor to campaign.

As you can see these smaller, more practical monos are no more practical to a young sailor endevoring to persue an Olympic campaign than the T. Joe Average with Olympic Laser ambitions will come up through the ranks of small monos to a cheap, older non-competitive laser (or spend buckloads on updating gear).

Cat sailor Joe Average can also come up through the ranks of smaller cheaper cats and once deciding upon an Olympic Tornado campaign could buy a Tornado that will have a long life span. Before stepping upto a new or near new Marstrom Tornado, Joe could purchase an older (around 16 year old) boat for around $12,000 with the current spinnaker rig and good sails. Many of our club members have done this and are competitive on the Australian regatta circuit. Classic rig boats can be purchased for around $3000 to $7000 then upgraded to the new rig.

With regards to the T being beyond the capacity of the average sailor.......... The Tornado is quiet an easy boat to sail. It is very stable and not as flighty due to its beam as many smaller 8.3 foot beam boats. However it is a very difficult boat to squeeze out the last couple off percent off boat speed. Therefore it is a great boat to learn to sail a performance cat on whilst giving you the opportunity too learn many aspects of sailing a performace boat to its full potential.

For those who do not wish to compete at an Olympic level or as an experienced racer they will also find this boat rewarding due to its ease to sail and the speed it offers. There are about 8 Tornado at the Summers Club in Victoria that have no intention of competeing at this level but rather race each other at a club level. Speaking to them, their is no other boat they would rather be sailing.

Whilst the Tornado may not be as easy to manage on land, on the water you will find out why this, the ultimate Off the beach production cat is enjoyed by so many. Many of whome would never trade it in on another cat. Sailing a Marstrom Tornado you will also understand why it was chosen and still remains after 28 years the Olympic class catamaran.

For further information about the Tornado class, please contact me.

Stephen Medwell

AITA President

Team Tornado 'ALIVE'

AUS-260

steve@tornadoalive.com

www.tornadoalive.com

[This message has been edited by tornado (edited 06 April 2004).]

[REV YUKKA II]

i would have to agree with steve in that the cost of the boat should not be a consideration. the averge joe is not going to make it to the olympic's if he/she has not got a heap of dollars and heaps of time and is prepared to sail with the best in the world.if you want to get into the sport and race at a club level for no money, then buy an old maricat for $500. don't confuse getting on the water and sailing with sailing at the olympic's they are two very different things. i myself am for getting people on the water in a sailing boat(mono,cat,tri) it dosen't matter. as far as a seconde cat goes it should be a fast single hander. we already have a fast two person cat and we have a slow single hander bath tub (laser). i sail a mari 4.3 and a nacra 5.8 both in competition. the 5.8 is alot more fun, but i enjoy racing any sort of sailing boat. as far as spectators are concerned show them speed.

[Darryl J Barrett]

Surely the 4.3 catamaran should be the obvious choice for size for a second Olympic class catamaran? Collectively there have been many more 14' cats put on the water over the years than any other size of cat, and although there is the valid argument that there isn't (as yet) a suitable designed 4.3 cat for selection as an Olympic representative, it would be a simple exercise for the ISAF to have a "sail off" to establish their choice? If they layed down the perimeters and set the time for this as they did when the selection was originaly made for the Tornado as an Olympic class. To my way of thinking it should be something similar to the M18 but at 4.3 size, and to placate the "purists" who consider that it has to be "demanding" to sail make it cat rigged with spinnaker, sailed one up on trapeze!

Darryl J Barrett.

[Emmessee]

I think if a 14 foot version of the M18 was released at a reasonable price, many of the 14 foot cat sailors would consider upgrading, but you have to keep the price down and give it coloured sails so Macca would consider sailing.

I

[berny]

M18??? I'll be the mug, what's an M 18????

Bern

[Quentin]

look at the quote in the first post in this topic

[berny]

Maybe something like this;

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287241557

Bern

[Emmessee]

Like that but half the weight and in yellow.

The M18 is one serious singlehander, and even thought there are not too many of them around (one in Australia me thinks) they are one mighty fine machine, and very very fast.

The M20 (two man version) has been described by Bundy as a boat that can "horizon" a Tornado. He said when he raced it in Europe that he was at the first mark before the sound horn finished.

[This message has been edited by Emmessee (edited 07 May 2004).]

[Darryl J Barrett]

Yours is definately on the right track Berny, and if there ever eventuated from the ISAF a "sail off" for selection (if they ever did decide to promote a 4.3 for Olympic selection, but I wouldn't hold my breath) It would be as they say "a contender", I just wonder how many other designs there are out there sitting waiting in some ones computer or drafted on drawing paper, waiting for an opportunity to be "put on the water? With all the increased interest in F18's, F16's etc, there must be a few 4.3 designs in the embryo stage waiting to be born? After all there are more sailors living today that had all or most of their first sailor experiences on 4.3 cats than any other size, and as yet there hasn't been the fertive activity in "new" designs in this size that one would have expected?

Darryl J barrett

[Darryl J Barrett]

One big advantage that a 4.3 cat has over it's much larger cousins for the incorporation as an Olympic class is it's relative ease in transportation, locally, nationally, and internationally. If it came to the choice of packageing a Tornado to send to an event on the other side of the world or a 4.3 I know which I would feel most comfortable with (including in the hip pocket). It would also mean that, for the price of having one internationally competitive Tornado, one could have at least three 4.3's with which to compete on! and don't let any one tell you that if you want to compete at the highest level cost saving doesn't make a very big difference to your success or failure!

Darryl J Barrett

[Darryl J Barrett]

Because a boat is "big", "expensive", "exclusive", and an Olympic class, doesn't mean, by any means that it will attract the "best of the best" sailors to compete on it. The legitimate argument could be made that many of the best sailors in catamarans over the last 35 plus years have been turned off of the Tornado purely because of the difficulties of campainging one due to the costs alone of a "competitive" boat, (not to mention the travel). it seems that when most clases become "Olympic" their actual numbers sailing at club, state, and national level actually decline! Doesn't it occur to any one that the best sailors with the best techneques, (and abilities) rise up in the classes that have the most numbers sailing tight competitive races every weekend, in large numbers, at club level? and that although the sailors that get the privilege to actually compete at "the Olympics" and are by no means untallented, when we see them (the olympians) compete in other classes in between their Olympic campaigns, if the class that they sail in has healthy competition, they, (the olympians) are by no means a shoe in to win, (if as some would have us believe, they, being the "best of the best", are just that, we should see them romp in every time?, When has there ever been a good number turn out of Tornados sailing competitive races at club level throughout a regular sailing season? If there was such regular, close competition in the class, perhaps then the need to travel so extensively overseas to be equal internationally would not be any where near as critical. Without the regular tight "club level" competition, no class will ever reach its full potentual, regardless of it's "international or Olympic" reputation.

Darryl J Barrett.

[macca]

Ok, this will open a whole can of worms, but here goes...

I have budgets for a T campaign and it is very clear that the major cost is not the boat or its associated equipment. the biggest costs are travel and income loss. As far as affordability goes it is totally irrevelant what class we sail in the Olympics. You will all be surprised to hear that the cost to campaign for an Olympics in a Hobie 16 are actually the same as a T, the reasons are related back to the majority of expenses being for travel and income loss, but also due to the fact that the sheer number of hours on the water means that the equipment wears out faster, a boat that is normally good for a few seasons of competition is rendered uncompetitive after only months of sailing at Olympic level, the resale values are low and turnover is high. A Tornado remains competitive for years of massively above average sailing time and the resale is excellent. If anyone is serious about going to the Olympics the cost of the boat is the least of their worries.

Freighting a 4.3m boat and a T are the same in logistical terms, so that is a mute point.

Having good club competition is great, but it will never reduce the need to travel OS and compete in the big races, Australia has a small population so we would never see the fleet sizes with the high quality we get in Europe regardless of the class or cost of boat.

I am not sure where all these unreal sailors over the past 35 years have been going, but if the reason is due to expense then I would question both their ability to understand the origins of the costs involved and their commitment to the task.

Sailing at this level is not something that is for all sailors, there are many other aspects that come into play once you enter this playing field such as politics and marketing etc, it is a lot different from having a bit of a bash round the local course one week then going to Athens the next.