Emmessee Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 I have sailed with Frank and Julian extensively and I can say that it is hard continual work. The 49er is a shrunken down 18, exactly actually. It is taken directly from the hull of Julian's 18 footer Prime Computers which was all balsa wood and a two handed boat. I hear that Julian is looking at a single hander, and it is a bit like a catamaran. Sounds strange that it is a bit like a cat, but this is how it was described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 here is a link of Hobie's new roto cat. they are selling really well in the USA but the price is right there. They are imported to here which again, just prices it out of reach of most punters. www.honiecat.com/sailing/models_bravo.html www.hobiecat.com/sailing/models_bravo.html you will have to cut and past it into your browser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 What a fantastic cat trainer. Every Ozy cat club should have at least one. What is the price likely to be, anyone know? I'll be putting the word on our committee. We have club mono trainers but no cat. Looking for a sponsor! Bern PS I did a drawing of a little cat very much like that one about five years ago Came across the sketch just the other day while doing some checking on 430 records. ouch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Originally posted by macca: Yep, he is certainly not backward in coming forward It is funny how there is all this amazement out there at the moment regarding the performance of the new breed of monohulls (maxis and skiffs) but the basics remain that cats are quicker for the same size by a substantial margin, even round the cans. Then when you consider the performance of the big multi's and Mono Maxi's the multi's are creaming these new generation mono's that are twice the size! These multi's must be bloody good machines considering they are good moderate condition recreational boats as Frank tells it Hey Macca, Looks like the Multihull is not the fastest off the beach sail boat. According to Dr Ian Ward (Moth sailor) in the latest Australian Sailing the foil Moth is producing 22 knots of boat speed in just 7 knots of breeze, copared with 17 knots for moth without foils. Also top speed of around 30 to 35 knots in 20 to 25 knots of wind. Quote - Imagine breezing effortlessly past most of the current skiff and cat classes upwind and down! Check out the graph where they have the T yardstick at 70 and show White knuckle express (Moth foiler) up along side it. Like those odds...... Would a foiler moth like to go around the cans with some big Ts. Quote - regarding tri foiled moths with foils on the wings.... "It was seen as a highly stable contraption and in effect turned the moth into a multihull." What the.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Yellow Pages was/is an off the beach multihull, no? Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 I was waiting for someone to ask. The Hobie Bravo is about $5500.00. My kids have one and its great. I have em in stock. By the way, a Hobie tri-foiler does about 35 kts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inland_Sailor Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 MAL What about its bigger brother the Wave? how would it compare cost wise? How do they perform? What do you or anybody else out there in catsailor land know about the Wave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal gray Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 The Wave is a reasonable performer for a recreational boat. It is easily demountable and virtually bullet- proof. Possible to roof-top. About $7700.00. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 I have seen the Moth foilers a few times, they are very fast in spurts, but they seem to have a lot of trouble maintaining that pace, also their upper range performance is limited by the water state, so in usual 20kts on an open bay like port phillip they have no chance of performing at that pace. I know Ian Ward and he is a very faithful supporter of the Moth class, I would be more than happy to have a run against a foiler moth round the cans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 the foiler moths are not a pretty sight when they ditch in over 20 knots of wind (and they regularly do) the expense of the ditch to them from off of foils is very high (and physically painful), so when the wind gets up they usually sail "conventionally" set up. But then the concept of foiler moths is relatively new and judging by the refinements and improvements that they have made in only a short time, they seem as if they could very soon have a system that works well through a full range of racing conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 The i14's have dabbled in the foil idea too and even before it was outlawed they found it to not be all that benificial, the primary reason being in most conditions to get enough speed to lift the boat out of the water, one had to point too low for the extra speed to be of benifit. Now most of the new boats have foils only on the rudder which changes the attitude of the boat (ie lift the nose out of the water) and also provide a similar hydrodynamic effect as if the 14 had a longer waterline length. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 The rudder T foil on the I14's works brilliantly,and if a T foul was incorported on a cat, if set up correctly, will reduce sudden pitching quite dramatically. It has the benefit on a cat that the angle of attack shouldn't have to be adjustable when sailing, it should be automatic with the pressures on the longnatudinal movement of the hulls. It could be very beneficient for cats. They are being used on F18's out of England and seem to work "to advantage". The only draw back that is apparent is that they can't be incorporated with kick up rudders (without very complicated and expensive engineering) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Do you know where I can get any info on them being used on a cat? I am skeptical as to their benifit as the f18's weight is almost 3 times that of an i14 and a totally different hull shape (Although the latest Beikers are getting narrower and narrower in the bow). Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 As I understand it in physics, there's the inescapable law which states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction which leads me to believe that rudder foils, in helping to lift the bows must pull the transoms down which suggests that there are significant drag factors associated with that action. I could be wrong but it sounds a bit like the black deck syndrome revisited. Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 If you have a look at John Pirece's site http://www.geocities.com/stealthmarine2002/ or http://www.geocities.com/stealthmarine2002/t-foil.html you will se that he has been using the T foil for a while now. I remember in the mid 90's Andrew Landenberger used the foils on his A class, the fact that he was not so fast is more likley due to other factors than the fault of the rudders. John has done a lot of work with these rudders and they seem to be working very well. John is an ex T sailor and used to do the rounds with me and the guys. If you had any questions about the effectivenes or drawbacks I would suggest emailing him. I am not sure if the T foils are legal in the F18 class, but if you look at the way the boats like the Capricorn are going there would appear to be little need for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 When I was in the US a couple of years back I has a go (not sure if you can say a sail) on a Windrider Rave. The link is below but for some reason it is not coming up as a hyperlink so copy and paste it. It was easy to sail and went as fast as I have ever been natuarally powered on the water, including my sensational sailboard I used have. I have seen the moth sail and it is for an expert only, and I don't think that I would have much fun doing it at all. Besides, I don't even think that I would fit on a moth anymore. But the Rave was sensational and very very simple and easy to use. http://www.windride.com/wrrave.shtml http//:www.windride.com/wrrave.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 Lookup the Stealth website for T foils on rudders. Berny you are right "action and reaction are equal and opposite" and that is what the T foil on the Stealth takes advantage of! when the bows pitch downwards the stern pitch's upwards (action and reaction) with the T foil the upward pitch of the transoms is stopped and the bows similarly will not "dive" (same action and reaction) ergo maintaining more stability fore and aft, and in addition to that, the energy generated, than was directed into creating the "dive" of the bows is some what redirected into forward motion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 A very important part of all that was that I left out "action and reaction are equal and opposite UNLESS ACTED UPON BY A FORCE" The T foils literaly become that force of redirection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 your sails work in exactly the same way! there is generated large side ways forces on the entire sailplan (as well as forward ) and these side ways moments are converted into forward motion by the hulls, centre boards, rudders and positioning of crew weight, resisting that side ways force. If it didn't, all boats would sail much better side ways than forward. Whats so different about useing the same principles under water as above? any one that has sailed a "hydrofoil" will appreciate this effect when they turn through 90 degrees at full speed and the whole platform just turns instantly with out any apparent "heeling" (and nearly breaking your head off your shoulders with the extra "G" forces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 Umm, yeah what he said But seriously, the T foils are nearly un-noticable on a Moth or a 18ft skiff for that matter, although I know a guy with J foils on his 18 and that is a rather special machine, he is having to recut his kites a lot flatter so they don't keep collapsing when the boat accelerates on the foils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 New topic for foils. This one is too long and takes ages to load Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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