berny Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 How many people here have sailed a 14 with a kite/spin? Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 YO BERNY! many many times! and it is the most exhilerating, fun, scary, "piss my pants", enjoyable, fastest, "wanna do it again" thing that I ever experienced in 50 years of sailing!!! To sail past a fleet of 16' and 18', non spinnakered cats on a broad reach in 15 knots of wind as if they were anchored, is a feeling that only a true 14' cat sailor can truly savour. Your mind and your heart are fighting all the time, your heart say's "go faster, go faster" and your mind says, "I'm gonna die" You have to be there to know, words are a poor excuse for the actual feeling. Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Come on, surely there is some one else who has sailed with a kite on a 14'cat? what about any one who goes back far enough to have sailed on that classic of the 60's, the 12' "kitty Cat". set up as standard sloop rigged with spinnaker and trapeze, sailed two up and was designed to "wipe out" the other boats in the Internationl 10 sq meter class (maximum working sail area). All the other 10 sq m craft were mono's and there was no rule against a cat competing in the class. After the Kitty cat wiped the floor with them, the international 10 sqm class disintergrated, the monos didn't like being beaten by a cat so they sulkily "took their bat and ball and went home" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted July 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 Gees, I'm not sure about this spinnaker on 14's thing. I mean I designed my 430 using the 'A' class concept to produce an easy boat to manage on the hard and a nice boat to sail on the water. It has been very successful in both areas and has given me several good years of competitive sailing with limited hassles and lots of great fun. I'm now far enough down the road toward fitting a spinnaker or 'hooter' (septic terminology), to realise that I'm making a very nice (IMHO), reasonably simple uncomplicated boat very complicated. At present it takes just a bit longer to rig than a 'normal', 14 i.e. Hobie, Maricat, etc. I don't trail the 430 with the rudders attached like many 14 owners do, it has a fairly decent size mast and it carries a spanner which needs to be set up so it takes just a few minutes longer to rig, but when the kite is up and running it'll take a shirtload of additional time to put the thing together and pull it apart again. I'm really NOT keen to make my sailing significantly more difficult than it already is, particularly for day sailing. I can't believe the amount of extra crap that's needed to carry a kite, and I presently furl rather than snuff to try to keep things simple, sort of. Maybe I'm gettin' old but it really does seem like it's all just too freekin' hard. Sure it'll go faster but then so does a bloody speed boat, so what? Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooD Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 I hear you berny! Last year I sailed the 5.8 with kite, what i found was its a hell of a buzz when its going well. picks the bows up and lets you rocket downhill. The clutter on the deck with spinnaker halliard and the sheet was a pain in the butt. it makes getting tangled up so much easier. the courses really need to be set for a kite and that is certainly not always the case. there is about an extra 20 mins rig up time and about 15 coming down. the 15minutes atthe end of the day when your cold and the hot water is running out is not the best. This year I will be sailing without kite and intend on keeping it that way. for around the cans racing im much happier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted July 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Yes, don't get me wrong, I think sailing with kites is exciting but I just wonder how much you need to do to get the ultimate head spin. I mean I love sailing and just being able to get out every Satdy is a huge buzz for me and as well as that my boats goes hard without a kite so why am I stressing?? The answer to off wind legs in cat courses is to set them at 60deg. to make an exciting reach out of them without a kite. Who needs down wind legs? Why even bother to include a down wind leg? Three 60deg. triangles, perfect. That's what happened at Tuggerah brass monkeys except they ran only two triangles and the wind shifts made the difference between one reach being shy and the other broad so we had it all. Too good. Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 If you set up the same as many of the other 14's overseas, you just leave the kite or screamer furled, then there is only the sheet for it attached to the rear beam on each side. If you use a snuffer, the halyard should not be a problem as you have it self retreaving under the trampoline, so it is totally out of sight and out of the water. It is simple to set up and very effective. I think once you get the hang of rigging and unrigging it should only take an extra couple of minutes tops. Bern, the A-Class dudes all now do the wild thing downwind, and probably go faster that way than with a kite. I don't think there are any 14 footers out there capable of doing this. You can try, but I think that you would be in a world of wet hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Yes a "good" 14' sailor can do the wild thing down wind, BUT as you said, it does require a few swims before he gets it right, and yes it does improve the downwind speed on a 14' Berny, although the "run" can be "boring" on a 14' cat the real point of it is that it is a legitimate point of sail and racing should be about "testing" sailors on their ability to sail on all points of sail with maximum proficiency. it should not be all just about "speed". On the run it is not so much "how many boats you can overtake" it's more about not making errors whereby YOU will be overtaken, meaning that good boat handling is critical down wind and you want to, at the least "hold position" not lose it. Sure it can be boring if you "need speed" but it can be totally engrossing if you appreciate and use the tactics that can only be incorporated on the run. Years ago I heard arguments from Hobie sailors that they wanted to do away with both the beats and the runs, (just put in reaching legs) until they realised that to do that you had to have a beating leg anyway. They only wanted to sail a course where they could sail at their maximum speed all the time (boring racing - good fun sailing) Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Emm the 430 goes wild very nicely, not a problem. The wind needs to up around 10k but it's not difficult on a boat which behaves predictably and has few vices I've never been for a swim off the 430 and I'm seldom second across the line in a 14 fleet. Darryl I'm totally confused here. On the one hand we talk about kites being the saviour of cat sailing because of the added speed. 14ft cats without spinnakers will not be successful because they aren't fast enough people are saying. We're told that even the A class should have a spinnaker (choke). Then we hear that speed isn't that important as long as you are being tested???? Mate I never said I thought running is boring. I thoroughly enjoy the all tactics of sailing on all points and have won several regattas and titles on down wind legs because, rather than just sit there and wait it out, as many do, I'll be making the most of my trim, extracting every ounce of speed by steering efficiently and surfing wherever possible while keeping myself in the optimum position to cover following boats and attack those in front, (if there are any ). I still say though that if going fast is what everyone wants, and that seems to be the main attraction regardless of how important tactics are, then maybe we should be setting the courses so the majority get what they want. Bern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Doubling up???? [This message has been edited by berny (edited 15 July 2004).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmessee Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 The Maricat is not the best to try and go wild. I spend a weekend upside down. It was about 15 knots and rather flat, but it was like the boat did not have enough power to keep it going. It also felt very narrow. But I will keep trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Berny it was not a direct reference to you or your sailing but the reference was to the sailing community in general. I can't even put a number on the times I have heard from cat sailors they find the run boring, a waste of time and that they (the runs) should be done away with. It's not my thoughts at all, I have always enjoyed the runs as with the enjoyment that I get from ultra light sailing where a lot of cat sailors that do not have enough patience, just give up and head for shore. But prior to a class using a spinnaker the runs, for a large number of sailors, disliked. With the inclusion of the spinnaker that attitude has made a complete U turn. For years and years the greatest knockers of the run were the Hobie classes. NOW the Tiger sailors never want to sail a course without the runs, not just one run in the race, but with nothing except beats and windward returns. They have decided to do away with, what was the only point of sail that the Hobie classes of cats for years and years past, were best at, THE REACHES. The difference is that cats without spinnaker suit the "traditional" olympic style course as a test on all points of sail where as the cats with spinnaker prefer the beats with windward return. What that means for cat sailing (in general) is that people are being attracted to cat sailing because of the "excitement" of the spinnaker, and "traditionalists" tend to stay sailing anyway. Any thing that attracts more sailors out onto the race course has to be good for all cat sailors. There has to be a place for all preferences, and there is definately a place for spinnakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Dean Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Speaking from experience, the window of an advantage in sailing an Arrow wild is very small and weight dependent.I would say this would be the case for other 14 foot cats as well. I found that it was only quicker in the 15-20 knot range and with flat water. If a very light weight sailor was good at going wild they may have a bigger window. One thing for sure is that it is a whole lot more fun than sailing straight downwind. Some times in our fleet racing a few of us make a rule that you have to go wild as soon as it is windy enough. Alot of the time some of the guys sailing normally will catch up. Sometimes when conditions are perfect we put a 100m on guys sailing normally. I know for sure what is more fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted July 17, 2004 Report Share Posted July 17, 2004 Yes Chris but heavy (read fat) old people have trouble doing the wild thing anyway!!!!!! (only joking, only joking), particularly as on an arrow, you need a road map to get past the single c/board "scafolding". And the hulls are so light now that if you do the wild thing you suffer the risk of being blown off the water and being classed as an "ultra light" air craft!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John D. Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Hello, I know I'm 6 months behind on this but I only just discovered the site. I wouild like to update you on the Kitty Cats you mentioned. I sailed Kitty's competetively for over 10 years, stopping for family/kids reasons like many about 14 years ago. Kittys dwindled in number steadily. Now there are only a small handful left sailing only at Williamstown Sailing Club in Melbourne. They were a fantastic boat to sail in their day and were one of only two classes then to carry a spinaker, the other being the Yvonne. The spinakers got bigger over the years until they were around 220 - 250 sq feet. Added to the main and jib, this made a formidable rig on such a small set of hulls. A decent breeze was needed to get them at full stride upwind but downwind was always a wild ride. Many times I saw amazed looks on the faces of people on bigger supposedly faster boats as we screamed past. They were a wet boat to sail and being wooden(GRP later) fairly maintenance intensive. Popularity diminished probably due to what became a dated look compared to the newer boats and this maintenance requirement. I'm sure they could now be made lighter and better if there was sufficient interest. The remaining boats at Williamstown have changed over the last 6-8 years. An extra meter or more has been added to the mast, extra sail area in the main, jib and kite and the skipper is now on the wire as well. Still on the 12 foot hulls. Bearing away at the windward mark is very interesting. When this handful of devotees stops sailing them, the Kitty will probably die off altogether as has been the case in the other states. Pity. Anyway, because the class is rarely seen anymore I thought you may be unaware of the mods they have undergone and may be interested. Must get back in to sailing myself soon. It was good to see your mention of Kitty's, I sometimes think I'm the only person who remembers them. Cheers. Come on, surely there is some one else who has sailed with a kite on a 14'cat? what about any one who goes back far enough to have sailed on that classic of the 60's, the 12' "kitty Cat". set up as standard sloop rigged with spinnaker and trapeze, sailed two up and was designed to "wipe out" the other boats in the Internationl 10 sq meter class (maximum working sail area). All the other 10 sq m craft were mono's and there was no rule against a cat competing in the class. After the Kitty cat wiped the floor with them, the international 10 sqm class disintergrated, the monos didn't like being beaten by a cat so they sulkily "took their bat and ball and went home" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAX Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Can anyone post a pic of a kitty cat with kite? sounds awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl J Barrett Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 The only pictures I've seen of them were under "full flight" with the spinnaker up and all you could see was a big ball of spray (or was it steam?) apparrently flying along on the race course!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Webmaster KCC Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 There is a photo of a Kitty Cat on the beach.."spinacker up" on KCC's Photo Page. http://www.kcc.asn.au then click on Photos button and page down. Doug L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 There is quite a good photo of a Kitty in Chris Wilson and Max Press's book "Catamaran Sailing to Win". Book was written in the 70s so the Kitty would be the old style. Also many photos of Quickcats and early C Class. I remember the Kitty Cat quite fondly. Had many a battle with them sailing with my father on his Attunga cat. Incidentally the Attunga also had a spinnaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John D. Posted December 22, 2004 Report Share Posted December 22, 2004 Ah yes...the Attunga...I forgot about them as a kite carrying cat. Sorry about that. I do have a couple of fpics of Kitty cats. As soon as I figure out how to get them on here, I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warbird Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 I had an Attunga! Great boat. Any photos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchlb44 Posted December 21, 2007 Report Share Posted December 21, 2007 I know a young bloke (17) who sails a Kitty at South Gippsland YC in Inverloch! His younger bro crews for him and he loves it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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