SEVENSEAS Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Would just like to start a topic regrading your opinion as to whether you think Maricats have a true handicap. I think they are very underated and almost impossible to beat on YS handicap. i might just be a useless sailor with sour grapes but would like the opinion of some sailors who do beat them on YS handicap or is it just a fact of life that in the hands of a good sailor you are not going to beat them. I have a nacra 5.8 and i have seen them matching me for speed in a reach situation. Whats going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NixonJr Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Theres a couple of catamarans that are underated or overated, Construction methods of boats aka Carbon Fiber and Sail Technology have come along way, However YA or YV don't seem to change the Yard Sticks very much for smaller classes and don't really seam to care about catamarans. How long have you been sailing the nacra 5.8? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEVENSEAS Posted February 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 we have been sailing it for two years agianst the same blokes. we work our ass of trying to get the win after YS. we have it down to 2-3 minutes but i can never find those minutes. the maricats seem to fast down wind. some electing to sail directly with the wind and are still a worry. it seems to me we have to nearly die as we do the wild thing at close to 20knts and we still come off second best while they seem to just cruise along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 In most of the bigger regattas, the 14ft cats sail in their own division and so there is probably little comparative data between 14ft cats of any type and big cats. Small mixed fleets and club races may not be a true guide. What we do know is that there is very little difference between all the 14ft cats when sailed by their best sailors. The defacto National Championship of 14ft cats is probably the Mannering Park 14ft Regatta in October where most of the State and national champions race against each other. They also get the occasional international star such as Darren Bundock and Steve Brewin. The mixed results in this regatta shows how close they are. The new NACRA 430s were no better or worse that the 30 year old Maricat design or home built Arrows or Paper Tigers. It all depends on the conditions and the skipper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 I've raced my Paper Tiger against Maricat & Nacra 5.8, such as at the Kembla Klassic. The 5.8 is MUCH faster; with twice the sail and longer water line length they ought to be. Are you using a spinnaker? Even without, try this; outhaul all the way out, mainsheet firm enough to stop the sail twisting too much, fly the hull and work it downwind. Once you get it powered up, the apparent wind should allow you to bear off and make better velocity mad good to bottom mark. And it'll be more fun! Mind you; I'm speaking from observation not experience on the 5.8. Have you read this tuning guide: http://www.columbussailingclub.org/pdf/nacra_5.8_tuning_guide_by_S._Yarrington.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEVENSEAS Posted February 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 yes looks like we need to get faster down wind. thanks for the help and opinions. i have seen that tuning guide thank you. if anyone with a nacra 5.8 feels like showing up to Coila Lake on the sth coast on a Sunday 20th feb 2011 or any second Sunday after that would love to see how it is done. we have a very good Maricat sailor in Rick Marsdon in fact we are the only ones to beat him home. he actually beats the taipans home. so i challenge someone to come and beat rick on yard stick with their nacra 5.8 . Coila Lake is one of the best sailing venues in the state beautiful NE breeze without the sea conditions although the nacra loves a bit of swell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NixonJr Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 That would be best - see how you are sailing compared to another nacra 5.8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 What is the yardstick that the Mari's in question are being based on, the koonawarra ones are fairly up to date with a yard stick of 87 for supersloop, but the YA or YV ones are heaps out of date. If I turn up to a regatta and see they are using YV yardsticks I'm laughing. Until Pointed ,Reply tell the organisers otherwise that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 Maricat - Cat Rig 94 Maricat - Cat Rig (Foam) 92 Maricat - Sloop Rig 94 Maricat - Sloop Rig (Foam) 92 Maricat - Super Sloop 90 Maricat - Super Sloop (Foam) 88 Those are the KoBSC y/s. Personally the Foam yardsticks are correct for all mari's. Whilst this is going to ignite the old argument, I remember when Mark Larkham was winning 14ft regattas as a S/S on 88.5, pre foam hulls and the change in sail measurement... The fact that a national champion like Mick can sail S/S on 90 or 90.5 is rediculous. They arent that much slower than a Windrush and we sail on 87. Also below 10knts the Maricats perform above their yardstick. Above 20knts they perform below their yardstick. A Windrush below 10knts performs below its yardstick and above 20knts they perform above their yardstick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 I think SEVENSEAS is talking about the comparison between big cats and little cats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEVENSEAS Posted February 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 yes that's correct and am reffering to the difference between big cats and little. yes they are running 88. but that is only after i got sick of it and did my own investigations. the year before that they were running 92 on a super sloop i mean we had no chance. the bottom line is there is simply not enough realistic race times and info sent to YV to make any changes. this is the case for many cats not just he maricats. if you look there are not many true handicaps for any of the cats as the clubs don't send race results away often enough. most cats have a tentative handicap. and if you want a real shock take a look at the difference with the american handicap system ( the ports mouth handicapping ) where by shear numbers they are probably closer to the mark than us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 That does seems better; different yardsticks for different wind ranges; http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/Tables_2010/Multihull_Classes.htm Would be more challenging to compute though. I notice the F16 has a lower yardstick; 63 - 60.1, than an A-class cat; 64.5 - 60.9. That seems more like what is should be! Compare with Yachting Victoria yardstick: Mosquito; 84, Mosquito with spinnaker - which is an F16; 80, A-class; 70.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 If they are running on 88, then you need to find some extra speed my friend. 88 is about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 At the Coila Regatta in 2009 we discussed the problem with VYC for cats and as you suggest they are not updated. I suggested that they use the Koonawarra Bay handicaps as they actively go out and get regatta results. VYC still does not recognise a Super Sloop Maricat and they have been around for 25 years. The Bateman's Bay regatta will be good place for Rick to test himself against some of the best 14ft cat sailors around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgehugger Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Give it a break Poor old Sevenseas. We looked at this closely last year, and dropped the Maricat yardstick to 88. We are happy to look at it anytime. Trouble is Sevenseas is not what you would call a super regular competitor. When he sails he is usually ( not always) first over the line as you would expect for the largest Cat on our waters. If I raced half as many races as my competitors I don't think I would expect to be winning on yardstick. We don't have any windward return races either which the big cats seem to revel in. We have a lot of fun and we sail to our limitations and that counts for something. Doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furr_ball Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 That does seems better; different yardsticks for different wind ranges; http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/Tables_2010/Multihull_Classes.htm Would be more challenging to compute though. I notice the F16 has a lower yardstick; 63 - 60.1, than an A-class cat; 64.5 - 60.9. That seems more like what is should be! Compare with Yachting Victoria yardstick: Mosquito; 84, Mosquito with spinnaker - which is an F16; 80, A-class; 70.5. Careful about the mossie / F16 match, we are grandfathered in to the class but do not carry the sail area, beam width, hull volumes etc of a true F16, I sail my mossie with kite and run off 80, it is a fair yardstick, we are no where near a full blown F16. With regards to the whole discussion, sailing regularly matters, technique is everything, get out often, get your downhill speed and work the apparent, yes you have to go to the edge if you want to come out on top. I find it challenging against some of the 14ft cats too, those Arrows when sailed well are near impossible to get over. Course type matters too, windward return with a long leg is heaven to me, triangles can be a different story. Real kool when you hit that sweet spot and have it on edge, can only get there with practice though. Love a good yardstick discussion, enjoy your sailing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NixonJr Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Yer the mossie yardstick is a bit tough, That yardstick is good for the older timber boats but for the newer carbon boats are much lighter and still use the same yardstick - does not compute! As for the arrows, We find it challenging beating them too - Once it hits 20/25 knots those things fly and having a smaller sail area and able to still stay in control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furr_ball Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Yer the mossie yardstick is a bit tough, That yardstick is good for the older timber boats but for the newer carbon boats are much lighter and still use the same yardstick - does not compute! As for the arrows, We find it challenging beating them too - Once it hits 20/25 knots those things fly and having a smaller sail area and able to still stay in control. Mossies have a minimum platform weight, doesn't matter if they are timber or kevlar/carbon have to be 55kg or more. The new kevlar/carbon hulls benefit from stiffness, slightly better hull shape through the hull and sit slightly higher in the water. Mine is timber but only a few kg above minimum weight, it is the hull shape that makes the difference, very hard to get it out of timber. Maybe should buy up all the arrows and put them in a shed......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NixonJr Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Hey drew how much over weight is your mossie from the 55kg target? Or put all the mossies in a shed :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furr_ball Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Mine weighed in at around 57kg at nats in Jan 2010. Lot of mossies are in the shed, just got to find them and get them back out. I sail in Qld, sort of on my own up here, the big fleets are in SA & Vic, that's where all the hot shots are too.......they are the ones giving others a run for their money at regattas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEVENSEAS Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 thanks for the credibility check rob Thanks for the credibility check Rob. If you read my post again you will see i am only opening up a discussion on the topic and admit i need more speed. This from our handicapper who happily sailed his taipan with spinnaker and did not declare he should have been classed as an F16 for a whole season and happily took the handicap of a Taipan 4.9 Poor old Sevenseas. We looked at this closely last year, and dropped the Maricat yardstick to 88. We are happy to look at it anytime. Trouble is Sevenseas is not what you would call a super regular competitor. When he sails he is usually ( not always) first over the line as you would expect for the largest Cat on our waters. If I raced half as many races as my competitors I don't think I would expect to be winning on yardstick. We don't have any windward return races either which the big cats seem to revel in. We have a lot of fun and we sail to our limitations and that counts for something. Doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Seven seas, Any old Mari (Mk1, Mk2 and foam) with decent race sails and a good skipper will sail to koonawara y/stick (see michaels list above). Your 5.8 needs to be 1440 or higher sail no, be fitted with foil kit and big jib, and you and crew need to weigh under 140 kg, and make no mistakes, to sail to y/stick in less than 15 kts. If you were sailing in mixed fleets (with monos) the long y/stick boats generally win, corsair, spiral, impulse, TS16, etc unless there is enough breeze for the cats to trap and fly a hull on all legs. We just have to put up with it or sail a Mari against Rick to find out if it is you or the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEVENSEAS Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 well darcy1945 thank you very much. you have in one post explained every thing to me. this is the voice of experience i was hoping to hear from. i can now enjoy the results again. The only thing that is dissapointing is the fact that if the age of a boat effects it that much that there is no form of compensation for the older boats of the same design made from old materials and techniques.. this has been a great post and look forward to hitting the water again. by the way my crew weight is 175kgs+ on a good day :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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