darcy1945 Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Sweet Sixteen, (Maricat No 16) is the oldest Maricat still racing and winning, her latest win, NSW combined high schools regatta, multi hull div, at Belmont skiff club. This is her 4th time winning this event (a record also), 3 times sailed by Jason Kakato and this year by Israel Smith (both Mannering Park jnrs). I have never seen another of these original Maris (built before the Mk 1) and the difference is subtle, the beams are 3or4 inches shorter and the hulls are finer in the bows, and the hull/deck join is much less than all other 4.3s. I do not know when the first Mari popped the mold but I believe Sweet Sixteen to be in her 40s. I am open to correction on the age, but regardless this is a great advert for the design/class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drifter Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 It is a shame that the maricat class is apparently being split into two groups 1) the foamies and 2) the others as seen from the results of the Batemans Bay regatta just held. We don't have too many of the newer boats in the country areas but Maricats of all vintages are still preforming above their weight (particularily in lighter conditions) in many inland clubs. The comment about sailing Maricats with the old coloured sails, would mean that you would be sailing at the back of the fleet may not be correct if you have sailed against some of these inland sailors with their very old cats. I may be old fashioned but when you sail in a class, you sail in a class. OK there are developments that make the newer boats faster in some conditions but the class is unaffected eg the Paper tigers sail as a class: not old boats in one division and newer boats in another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Don't agree with you drifter. I think the association doesn't serve it's members (financial and others) well. I'm guessing that the Batemans regatta was sailed and at the same time the Mari Nationals was sailed. What's missing is the Mari nationals results. Presumably there were enough foamies to make a separate class in the main regatta so that's why it looks one sided. I notice that the Maricat Association still has the NOR for last years nationals. Quite possibly the result of an over complicated site that needs professionals to maintain. I also sail a Careel 18 and the results come out within a couple of days of the event. In the Careels we only have one class even though there are three different 'marks' (four if you define the early and late mk1's). Personal handicaps come out a day later. The Mari's don't help themselves of course, there are foam/non foam cat, sloop and super sloops - benefit is that they cater for all sizes but you have effectively six subclasses. As to competitiveness, in non foam boats Darcy can thrash the field in his old boats (plural because he rarely finishes the season in the boat he starts with!) and I'm not too bad with mine in the light stuff. Coloured sails, well Markovitch has done a lot for them with his triradial sails with splashes of colour but in any class anywhere new sails will make a difference - properly used they'll minimise the competitive differences. Use an old sail (ie more than one season) on an Etchells for example and you guarantee a place at the back. They are the engine and no cart / bike or car racer would venture onto a track with an old worn out motor would they. My 0.02cents worth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pondskum7 Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 So where are the results for the nationals, everything I have read looks like Maricats have splintered into to many groups. There is a thread on promoting the class looks a bit daunting if we cannot even get any results for national titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted April 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 Drifter, I believe the Maricat class to be the best in regards to cost to become competitive, a $500 Mk 1, with a new main ($1400) can still compete and win. This is not the case with other 14's, even Marko, or the Williams family could not do that with any old P/T, the old windies likewise, can not be made to perform against bulkhead and foam platforms. That said, I have owned a foam Mari and found that the lighter weight and extra bouyancy gave my 99.8 kg an edge in most conditions but I am back on a mk1 because I can see the value in the older boats keeping the class alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 The class was split into 2 divisions not by us but by the regatta organisers. We still all raced together. It just turned out that there was enough foam cat rigged boats to qualify as a class for the reggata, so thats what happened. I would have liked to see the overall placings of the mari fleet as I reckon I beat Mick on scratch in race 2 or 3 (I think), he reckons we tied, (I offered him a chance to enter his feelings in the hurt feelings file but he deceided not to) but we don't have the times or placings of the mari's as a general class, so we can't work it out. The results were cat rigged, Mick Colecliffe 1st, young Jason 2nd, Mark Colecliffe 3rd, and in the super sloop which is where it really matters Phil Johnston 1st, Adrian Heap 2nd, Rob Fowler 3rd. Maricat still only has 3 divisions, Cat, Super sloop, Sloop. We however normally also give trophies for 1st classic etc in each division as well to encourage the sailors on the older boats which are often middle of the pack to give it a go. Although it can and has happened that the winner of the overall trophy for the regatta/titles gets the main trophy and the classic trophy as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 As for the website yes you do need to be a techno geek to enter stuff on it (and none of us are), and at the moment I don't reckon we can afford to get anything else yet as we are scraping for dollars to even run titles as it is, Less and less people are turning up for titles, therefore there are less class members of the assoc paying title fees or membership dues hence we have less money to spend on websites let alone titles or even trophies. Insurance for the assoc is getting to be the biggest killer at the moment. Lack of money is one of the main reasons also we have gone to holding titles at established regattas as the assoc cannot afford to pay a club to run a titles just for the Maricats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 Four old glass Maricats at the CHS with good race sails and well sorted gear. Three in the top third of the fleet out of 127 entries, with probably the oldest boat in the regatta (Sweet 16) in 14th place. The various models of Maricat has been discussed at length. The newer foam sandwich constructed Maricats are 100% compliant with the Maricat specification and constitution. They weigh in at 95kg. They are lighter than the older boats mainly due to improved control of the production process. The old boats are over weight. The new boats are NOT underweight. The Maricat Association does not differentiate between foam and glass boats but at Phil says, at State Titles we do award a prize to the first "classic". Some clubs and regattas choose to use the Koonawarra Yardsticks which differentiates between Foam and Glass Maricats. VYC is very out of date with no handcap for Supersloop Maricats, which have been around since about 1985. And it is good to see the PT boys taking an interest in Maricats !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 Four old glass Maricats at the CHS with good race sails and well sorted gear. Three in the top third of the fleet out of 127 entries, with probably the oldest boat in the regatta (Sweet 16) in 14th place. The various models of Maricat has been discussed at length. The newer foam sandwich constructed Maricats are 100% compliant with the Maricat specification and constitution. They weigh in at 95kg. They are lighter than the older boats mainly due to improved control of the production process. The old boats are over weight. The new boats are NOT underweight. The Maricat Association does not differentiate between foam and glass boats but at Phil says, at State Titles we do award a prize to the first "classic". Some clubs and regattas choose to use the Koonawarra Yardsticks which differentiates between Foam and Glass Maricats. VYC is very out of date with no handcap for Supersloop Maricats, which have been around since about 1985. And it is good to see the PT boys taking an interest in Maricats !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Peter Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 They go faster if brought up to date!! As a guy just beginning to take an interest in higher level Maricat competition - I looked into this. From a Google of Yachting Victoria Yardsticks "No monohull class has submitted sufficent results to have a yardstick listed as reliable and only 4 catamaran classes retained their reliable status. The work of a very few regular submitters of results added by the class associations whth new boats seeking initial yardsticks has provided any results to maintain the listing. If the current level of returns continues no classes will be listed as reliable next season and very few will be listed as tentative." Further down the document: MARICAT 4.3 CAT 94.00 MARICAT 4.3 SLOOP 92.00 For YV there is no differentiation between supersloops or foamies and/or classics and because of this, using the YV yardsticks is not valid to my way of thinking. We either have to start submitting results to YV or look at other data sets. I Googled the Koonawarra website mentioned by others: Maricat - Cat Rig 94 Maricat - Cat Rig (Foam) 92 Maricat - Sloop Rig 94 Maricat - Sloop Rig (Foam) 92 Maricat - Super Sloop 90 Maricat - Super Sloop (Foam) 88 At least all variants of Maricats appear to be covered. Koonawarra are saying foam construction is worth 2 points of handicap irrespective of rig. Interestingly they are also saying that sloops are not faster than cat rigged, but do not say the same about supersloops. To me it is the rig and the sails that make the most difference not the hull construction. The old rig and the RRR (radically-raked rig) are not the same beast at all. Based upon my own observations on the difference the RRR can make over a standard multicolour rig (read old fashioned) is significant and should not be ignored by handicappers. For example: In the last race at Batemans Bay Robert? and I screamed down towards the bottom mark together. We were so close you could have stepped from one boat to the other. We rounded the bottom mark and started to work to windward. Rob with his RRR and new sail on a Mark II stole at least 10-15 degrees on me with my old upright multicoloured sail mark I. It was the end of our personal battle. The interesting question I would like to see answered is, how well do old boats modified with the RRR and competitively sailed perform against the simiarly well sailed foamies and non-modified boats? It was disappointing that Bateman's Bay did not have times for the foamies it could have given us some data to play with and perhaps a baseline for reasoned discussion. It is something the association must ensure does not happen next time. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted April 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 The reason that sloop rig is on the same y/sick as cat is that sloop must have min crew weight in excess of 120kg (usually father son or two teenagers) and no trapeze. Any old Mari with new rig and sail, with a good lightweight sailor, (Pete Breadon), could place at a national level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Pete, I was lucky when I started because Mannering Park was my preferred club being only 6k's from my home. There all the boats were the same - your RDD and tucked under rudders were standard, if you didn't have them you soon did! There was a sail rule change some time ago that I think was instigated by the Manno boys so that a better sail could be used on the RDD (ie more modern and different layout to support the higher clew setting). It comes back to what I mentioned before and which I think you were aware of before you went which was that you'll get experience as to what's what. If you read the rules (which thankfully are on the website) there are some parameters that you can play with and rig adjustment and sail shape are amongst them. This stuff is standard in every class except possibly the Lasers where some modifications are not specified. I'm not surprised that you 'lost' Rimmo, a recent, well built sail against a standard Mari coloured sail is pretty much a no-brainer. I can't see any yardstick changes resulting because you can buy a new sail and rake the mast on any Mari - just do it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Peter Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Crewless Sllops The reason that sloop rig is on the same y/sick as cat is that sloop must have min crew weight in excess of 120kg (usually father son or two teenagers) and no trapeze. Any old Mari with new rig and sail' date=' with a good lightweight sailor, (Pete Breadon), could place at a national level.[/quote'] It was my understanding that sloops are sailed two-up but I don't recall any being sailed two-up at Bateman's Bay (happy to be corrected). At an inland regatta I competed against a Maricat Sloop that was sailed one-up. What's the yardstick for a sloop with no crew? Or should they just be counted as super sloops irrespective of kite or trapeze? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Peter Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Pete, I was lucky when I started because Mannering Park was my preferred club being only 6k's from my home. There all the boats were the same - your RDD and tucked under rudders were standard, if you didn't have them you soon did! There was a sail rule change some time ago that I think was instigated by the Manno boys so that a better sail could be used on the RDD (ie more modern and different layout to support the higher clew setting). It comes back to what I mentioned before and which I think you were aware of before you went which was that you'll get experience as to what's what. If you read the rules (which thankfully are on the website) there are some parameters that you can play with and rig adjustment and sail shape are amongst them. This stuff is standard in every class except possibly the Lasers where some modifications are not specified. I'm not surprised that you 'lost' Rimmo, a recent, well built sail against a standard Mari coloured sail is pretty much a no-brainer. I can't see any yardstick changes resulting because you can buy a new sail and rake the mast on any Mari - just do it!! Losing to 'Rimmo' actually made the advantage of the RRR and new sail real to me. So I am doing it. A new sail is ordered. I have customised the front and side shroud stays to accomodate the required rake and, I am about to acquire a Mark II in very good order which I will campaign. Thank goodness for school holidays. You are correct when you say my recent adventure at the nationals was as much a fact-finding mission as anything. What is interesting to me is that there are competitive fleets like Mannering Park and then there are guys like me, who campaign their old Maricats in complete ignorance of rule changes. When I go to other inland clubs here in Victoria I might find one other Mari - but you can bet its old school just like mine! Somehow, the exciting new look foamie and the improved performance available to old boats from the rule change has passed us by. Here in inland Victoria it would be fair to say that Maricats don't have much of a profile except as a starter boat contrasting with Paper Tigers who do a traveller series each year. I can't comment about Melbourne sailing clubs. Getting back to the 'starter boat' perhaps there is an opportunity here to get people started on old Maricats and then, instead of purchasing another make, they 'improve' their old Maricat with the new rig and sail. They could have a very competitive boat for a couple of grand. I suppose the trick is reaching these beginner cat sailors. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Two things there Peter, First, sailing in company and racing with purpose (Frank Bethwaite - Higher Perforance Sailing) is just that - you start and you never know someone might come along and say, I've got one of those in the shed and before long you have a fleet. For me, being 'in the traffic' is the best return for the (relatively) meager outlay I've made. Second, when I were a lad we sailed GP14's and Enterprises at Rugby Sailing Club, this lake was 35 whole acres with quite a bit of it shallow and weedy. We never sailed with spinnakers because there wasn't enough room to get them up and down, we went to the Nationals - 120 boats and a real eye opener in terms of what the others were up to. However, we still had good competition and a lot of cameraderie. When the next guy turns up at your club with his old Maricat he'll see what you've done and copy you pretty quickly, and then it'll go on. So keep it up, and when you want to see how you're going, there's Toukley Brass Monkey in July and Mannering Park 14ft Regatta in October. See you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Regards the mentions of Paper Tigers: "the Paper tigers sail as a class: not old boats in one division and newer boats in another." - at the Nationals there are A, B and C divisions so even old relics can win a prize - a '70s era fibreglass (chopped-strand mat) boat with eliptical mast, slab foils and original gear (eg; 1464 "Why Worry?") is about 10% slower than a modern PT. "a $500 Mk 1, with a new main ($1400) can still compete and win. This is not the case with other 14's, even Marko, or the Williams family could not do that with any old P/T" - I found an old (1978) foam-core Paper Tiger rotting in a backyard, with holes in both hulls where the trailer had rusted out and dropped it onto mudguards. Bought it for $200, scraped the moss and lichens off it, patched the holes, added a 2nd hand sail for $200, a new mast $400 (including fittings), and shaped up some hardwood for foils. 2128 "Pelikinetic" won local regattas and scored 6th place in heat of the Internationals at Koonawarra, for an overall mid-field result. An A-Grade sailor may have gone even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 PAPER TIGER GRADINGS I would just like to clarify what Tony mentioned in case there is any confusion. The A, B and C grades at Paper Tiger Nationals are not based on anything to do with the boat's configuration, age or construction material. It is based on past performance of the skipper. All sailors become C graders at their first PT Nationals. They earn their way into B grade by finishing in the top half of the fleet overall, or A grade by finishing in the top quarter of the fleet. Once in B grade, they cannot return to C grade. However they can move between A and B based on performance in the last two Nationals in which they have competed. COMPETITIVENESS OF OLDER PAPER TIGERS In regard to the competitiveness of older Paper Tigers, the 2006 PT Internationals were won by Mark Wiggins (Vic) on a ply boat that was around 28 years old. However, it did have a fairly new sail on it. I agree with the comments above that the sail is the engine of the boat and makes the biggest difference. Older PT hulls remain competitive as long as they remain close to minimum weight (and have good rigs). KOONAWARRA BAY YARDSTICKS As the custodian of the Koonawarra Bay Yardsticks, I can say that Koonawarra Bay SC is very happy with its current yardsticks, which continue to prove to be pretty close to the mark year after year at their annual 14ft Cat Regatta. It is amazing how close the results have been. We are slow to make changes to them because of this. However, we did agree to add the yardstick for "foam" Maricats, as we had been encouraged to do so by a number of Maricat sailors over a couple of years and after seeing the performance of the foam boats at the event. In my opinion, if the newer foam boats DO meet the minimum weight requirements of the Maricat class rules, I believe they should not be segregated from the older boats. However, the addition of the "classic" prize is a good encouragement for the older boat sailors. However, as a PT sailor, I don't pretend to have a right to weigh into your debate! I just thought I would add some further info. Good healthy discussion though. Regards, Dave Stumbles Paper Tiger class and Koonawarra Bay SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Peter Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 OK. I am beginning to see the reasoning behind all this. I think the A, B and C grading used by the PT fleet as mentioned above might be worthy of future discussion at the AGM. Thank you, Dave, for your input both as a PT sailor and Koonawarra handicapper. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Peter Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 OK. I am beginning to see the reasoning behind all this. I think the A, B and C grading used by the PT fleet as mentioned above might be worthy of future discussion at the Maricat AGM. Thank you, Dave, for your input both as a PT sailor and Koonawarra handicapper. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 It was my understanding that sloops are sailed two-up but I don't recall any being sailed two-up at Bateman's Bay (happy to be corrected). At an inland regatta I competed against a Maricat Sloop that was sailed one-up. What's the yardstick for a sloop with no crew? Or should they just be counted as super sloops irrespective of kite or trapeze? Supersloop is one sailor, main and Jib, no Kites permitted, with trap if you want, that is your decision, I never used to use a trapeze as all the supersloops up this way did not use trap and i was still reasonably competitive here not using it, but after going away to titles and having difficulty holding the boat down in heavier wind and getting flogged by sailors using trap I figured it was a way I had to go. I think that considering the way I was able to pull away from the 14' fleet in the last race at Batemans, that in trapezing strength wind trap is a big advantage, but is has taken a fair bit of practice and boat tweeking to get it working well for me. So any boat sailed one sailor no crew 2 sails is classed as SS and should carry that yardstick (88). As Rodney states VYC has no mention of SS even though SS has been around for quite a few years now, maybe because there are not a lot of Mari's sailing comp in Vic or no SS sailing in comp there? There were no sloops sailing at Batemans Bay, otherwise there would have been a trophy awarded, as far as I know a trophy still exists, (probably still bolted to the mantlepiece at Rodneys house) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Peter Posted May 2, 2011 Report Share Posted May 2, 2011 Two Maricats - one old school and one, a Mark II, brought up to date. Hi Guys, I have a new (for me) Mark II. Eastwind is providing the new cut racing sail. I am stealing good bits from my Mark I and I am am hoping it will be up to spec for being competitive. I have carried out surgery on the shrouds. My old boat will be taken on by my adult daughter. I want it to be as good as it can be albeit old school. I have an old sail from the new boat and it is good. As they gain confidence then it becomes a sloop. Happy to hear any advice re getting either boat up to spec. Already done some stuff. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted May 2, 2011 Report Share Posted May 2, 2011 Peter, sloop isn't something to aim for - it's what the old blokes who can't tack have to do to sail a maricat. It also puts a lot of pressure on the bow section and can cause a lot of structural issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted May 3, 2011 Report Share Posted May 3, 2011 Do you mean Sloop or SuperSloop ? Sloop with a crew is the best configuration for a Maricat, especially if the total crew weight is about 110-120 kg. A well sailed sloop can beat any other Mari or 14ft cat. They tack fast and can be sailed fully powered up when other configurations are depowering. "WhiteWave" is the fastest Maricat around. Zac and I sailed the older "Pointed Reply" sloop rigged for 3 years and managed to beat everybody at some time and had a huge amount of fun together. Some boats did suffer from compression cracks but most just keep powering on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 Oh Jimbo you're hard on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Peter Posted May 5, 2011 Report Share Posted May 5, 2011 The pieces are in place I have a Mark II I have the new sail but instead of working on it, I have begun extensive on-land tuning ----- of my 'crappy old boat (thanks Phil)' to bring it up to spec. I think making available a good old boat for new or returning sailors is a great idea. This Sunday is the beginning of Yarrawonga's YC Brass Monkey series and it will be the first outing for the new set up. Fingers crossed but no doubt there will be things to do after this? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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