tonyquoll Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 DRAFT Notice of Series: http://nswptca.papertigercatamaran.org/docs/14%27cat%20NOS%202011.doc DRAFT Entry Form http://nswptca.papertigercatamaran.org/docs/14%27cat%20ENTRY%202011.doc Contentious points included: The 14’ Catamaran Traveller Series 2011-2012 includes the following regattas: • 8 & 9 October: Mannering Park Amateur Sailing Club’s 14' Cat Regatta. • 6 & 7 November: Kurnell Catamaran Club’s Top Gun Regatta. • 27 & 28 November: Port Kembla Sailing Club’s Kembla Klassic. • 11 & 12 February: Koonawarra Bay Sailing Club’s 14' Cat Regatta. • 10 & 11 March: Wallagoot Lake Boat Club’s Regatta. • 6th May: Bayview Yacht Racing Association’s Peter Loft Marathon. Entrants may be classified into A and B divisions, by the following method: • An entrant which, on average, finished in the top half of boats in the regattas they recently entered is classified in Division A. • An entrant which, on average, finished in the lower half of boats in the regattas they recently entered is classified in Division B. A high point scoring system will be applied, 4 races to count Yardstick list: see page 2 of Entry Form For further information please contact: me, and....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Thinking we should drop the entry fee. More hassle than its worth. For prizes I vote for engraved beer glasses, eg: http://www.glasselegance.com.au/products/details/Personalised-Gifts/Personalised-Glasses/pepersonalised-beer-schooner-glass A sponsorship of $100 would cover 6 of these and leave change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 The problem with Tony's proposed points is that if you get more than 15 boats, they don't get points. So, if someone travels all the way from Wallagoot and there are 16 boats, they'll get the same points as if they had stayed home. I'm sure that will cause concern. The PT series was 6 races, drop 2. If you attended four or more, no huge penalty. Attendance is thereby encouraged. I would rather penalise non-starters than those who finish lower than 15th! Tony's system also still penalises non-starters - they get no points! The problem people have with high-point systems is they don't WANT to rop races. They want to keep all the points they can get!! (said with a smile). When posting yesterday, I was going to suggest a system used by the Victorian PT association (I think they only used it once due to complexity). It was also a high-point system, but points were awarded depending on the number of entrants at each event. If 20 boats, 1st=20, 2nd=19, 3rd=18, etc and DNC=0. If only 6 boats attented, 1st=6, 2nd=5, 3rd=4, etc and DNC=0. This rewards the sailors who do well at the well-attended regattas. However, it does add complexity and it diminishes the value of the events at the extreme ends of the state, such as Wallagoot, as they are likely to get less boats. However, having made mention of this system, I still advise keeping it simple, whether a high-point or low-point system is used. I advise using the same points for every event for consistency. In the end, as long as the system is simple, the better boats will still dominate the results and the better sailors who compete at most of the events will come out on top. The important thing is to get the boats on the water to enjoy the racing. I agree with Tony's suggestion of no entry fee. I would suggest you let the clubs just collect their usual entry fee for each regatta. You then count ALL 14ft cats that attend and compete, as this is very inclusive and encourages them to attend more events. As Tony suggests, you seek sponsorship of $100, $200 or $300 or more and let this cover the prizes. This way, all insurance and other hassles are carried by the clubs. The other things is, as you don't have an official association, collecting money is potentially a little dodgy. One more spanner: Tony has listed the Nacra 14sq in his list of yardsticks. Not sure if the inclusion of larger boats was decided officially, but some events may not allow them to compete. For instance, the Koonawarra Bay event has always allowed only boats of 14ft or less LOA. I am sure people will come back at me saying it should be inclusive and therefore they should be allowed to compete, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise it becomes an open cat regatta. You may also find that at some of the events, the larger cats like this don't start with the 14s, so working out results between them and the 14s could be an issue. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korwich Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 This is the 1st time that I have heard of less than 1 hour north of Sydney (Mannering Park) being classed as the extreme end of the state. Does that mean that Tweed Heads would be the same as Syberia. Otherwise it looks OK to me. Agree on the bit about the 14Sqr though, but that can be juggled if necessary. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 I dont think anything here has been decided officially. This design-by-committee effort is left predictably unresolved. Regattas The inclusion of BYRA is an anomaly, as it's not a weekend regatta, not a club that sails 14' cats, and was not well attended. Toukley is a more deserving host, however I read more posts calling for BYRA. * I dropped Sail Sydney off the list as the event is not open to all classes. They are seeking responses from associations, and may then invite a selection. At this stage no idea which club will host, who will get to race, or what the regatta will include. Eligibility The Nacra 14 sq is 4.5m, or 14'9". Because my Dad Richard sails one, we specifically ask to have it included in the 14' cat fleet at regattas (eg; Batemans Bay). This has provided us great racing, as actually we are well matched. Dad's comment is that if it's a hassle, dont bother, as he's happy with just attending our usual set (YMCA Canberra, Kembla Klassic, Batemans Bay, Wallagoot). The multi-class regattas typically split boats on yardstick, so we split the fleet at 84. This includes the Nacra 14sq with PTs & others, but its the F14 that will be in the big cat division. At regattas the only F14 has been an Alpha-OmegaF14, which raced well with other 14's, and suffered badly on yardstick. Therefore the line has been drawn at 15', which allows all of the sailors with 14 foot-ish cats who actually attend the regattas listed to race together. Scoring I split A & B on average finishes in the top or bottom half of boats. The results for B grade then calculated for that division, so upto 30 boats should all score points for attendance. Obviously the best 4 results are kept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Yeah, sorry Korwich. I forgot that the most northern one was Mannering. I was thinking of all the comments in relation to how far south Wallagoot is. While it may be an excellent regatta, it is likely it will get less entries than those more "central" events that have had a long association with the 14ft cats. Tony, I don't understand your proposed scoring. It sounds like you're proposing that A and B are quite separate in the scoring. I thought the intention was to lump everyone together and simply give the B grade trophy to the highest placed B grade boat in the final overall results. Possibly the various class associations could nominate the grades for each boat, as they should be across their likely performance. You could give them a guide, like if the boat is likely to finish in the top half (A) or bottom half (B) of a state title for that class. Either way, I doubt anyone will get too concerned that they were placed in the 'wrong' grade. Good point about the "design by committee" problem. Now that there have been many contributions from many people, maybe a group of two or three could form an unofficial "committee" to decide the finer points so that it doesn't get too bogged down. Perhaps Sando might like to lead it. I reckon Tony would volunteer too. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Scoring In previous discussion, it was clarified that all boats start together and race together, with all boats listed in overall results, and B division results worked out later. The high point system used in MotoGP and Formula1 has the advantage of being able to produce ongoing standings. This helps makes following the series exciting. Applied to the 14' Cat Traveller Series, it would allow us to follow our standing throughout the season. Splitting A & B on average scores would mean that people may move up & down grades throughout the season. I imagine re-calculating B division points after each event. As we dont know who will attend, or how our classes compare, or if yardsticks are appropriate, this system takes out the guesswork. Yes, it will involve some maths, but to be honest I'm looking at this right now in preference to evaluating statistical methods applicable to assessing habitat characteristics associated with Miner birds. Scoring is relatively fun & easy! *Better idea; B division if you finished in bottom half of fleet, on average, at regattas in last 2 years. That way all results immediately known at end of each event. Committee I'm happy to contribute, and suggest creating a webpage. This could either be a page on http://nswptca.papertigercatamaran.org/, or I can be a sponsor and host it at http://www.tonyhastings.com.au/, or it could be a facebook page. The facebook page allows us to create a poll, which might be a way to resolve outstanding issues. * for $14 I can create www.14footcats.org.au Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Hi guys, the intention to include BYRA is that coming as it does at the end of the season, and being a potentially challenging 'marathon' event, it lends itself to the 'summit' event - and one we could use as an informal presentation venue... I can assure you, that given some ocean swell and a decent breeze, this event is certainly one to look forward to - definitely requires different tactics and approach – I know I was 'on edge' out there... one wrong move and you're in! The other thing is that if we don't attend anything that PBSC puts on (or the Sail Sydney event) – then those guys who are trying to get a few more 14s on the water up there (Andy Nelson) - will encourage their new sailors to attend too... and think about it – 'Lion' Island... cats... get it? We just have 2b there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 BTW, I really do feel that Toukley should be included - and that Sail Sydney should be seen as optional – and/or an excellent 'promotional' opportunity... after all it's going to be the one event that's heavily promoted by the YA - right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sando Posted May 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Not sure if I can bring the sailing knowledge to lead the finalisation of this series, but happy to be on committee. Tony H appears to have the answers and maybe Rodney (Wagga) & Mick C or Warren P (Mannering Park). Mannering Park 14' Cat regatta and Koonawarra Bay 14' Cat regatta as core to series - so we need 4/5 more. We should go with the regattas listed here this year; 8 & 9 October: Mannering Park Amateur Sailing Club’s 14' Cat Regatta. • 6 & 7 November: Kurnell Catamaran Club’s Top Gun Regatta. • 27 & 28 November: Port Kembla Sailing Club’s Kembla Klassic. • 11 & 12 February: Koonawarra Bay Sailing Club’s 14' Cat Regatta. • 10 & 11 March: Wallagoot Lake Boat Club’s Regatta. • 6th May: Bayview Yacht Racing Association’s Peter Loft Marathon. Toukley a possibility if they can do 14 & 15 April. YA NSW has sent expressions of interest to not only associations but to clubs as well. Personally, I would like to see the new YA NSW administration be given a go with Sail Sydney and hopefully Pittwater in December is a goer and includes 14' cats this year and can be included in 2012/2013 series. Wallagoot this year, maybe alternate with ACT multihull next year. Let's be open minded enough to reconsider all after this year's series. No entry fees with sponsors sought to donate prizes or vouchers. Personally, I have to drop Manno again this year as I will be in Fiji. But plan to do all others. Like the idea of using Facebook. Sando Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 NSW 14' catamarans, are now in Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/NSW-14-catamarans/112511035502076?sk=wall includes poll for series, scoring, and photos TIPS: - you must have a facebook account and sign in. It's free and you can use any name you want, eg: you real name; "Arnold Reginald Pleasant", or the name people know you by; "Arnie Cat". It's worth spending a few minutes editing your profile, notification & privacy settings - click "LIKE" to be in the loop for updates and messages from the 14'cats page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darcy1945 Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 Toukley SC will host an open cat regatta on 31 Mar 01 Apr IF it is on the 14' cat traveller series calendar. If any class wanted to use it as a championship event, the club would be amenable. Sando, back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humungus2 Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 Well done fellas, it all looks great. Love the photos on the facebook page. I can't wait to win the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted June 4, 2011 Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 Toukley'll certainly get my vote to be part of the series - especially since they'll host a regatta just for the series... and as it duzzn't appear to clash with anything else, Y not? Let's get behind it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Wallagoot Lake Boat Club has held its AGM and confirmed: - we would be delighted to be included in the 14' Cat Traveller Series - we will be adopting the Koonawarra Bay yardsticks for 14' cats from now on - the WLBC Regatta will be held 10-11 March 2012. Regards, Tony Hastings Secretary, WLBC wallagoot@yahoo.com.au Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just One More Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I'l be attending. Great regatta, great weekend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Results from the Facebook polls: 8 & 9 October, Mannering Park 14' Cat Regatta ......- 12 votes 22 & 23 October, ACT Multihull Champs................ - 8 votes 6 & 7 November, Kurnell Cat Club, Top Gun Regatta - 6 votes 12 & 13 November, Palm Beach SC Beware the Bullets Regatta - 3 votes 19 & 20 November, Queens Lake SC (mid north coast) - 1 vote 27 & 28 November, PKSC Kembla Klassic................. - 9 votes 11 & 12 February, Koonawarra Bay 14' Cat Regatta..... - 11 votes Early March, Darren Lowder memorial, South-west Rocks - 1 vote 10 & 11 March, Wallagoot Lake Boat Club Regatta...... - 9 votes 14 & 15 April, Toukley SC (Tuggerah Lake) ................ - 3 votes 21 & 22 April, Batemans Bay Anzac Regatta .............. - 6 votes 6th May, BYRA Peter Loft Marathon (Pittwater) ......... - 6 votes See poll and add your vote: http://www.facebook.com/pages/NSW-14-catamarans/112511035502076?sk=wall Conclusion: several events are tied on 6th place. Suggest these 6: 8 & 9 October, Mannering Park 14' Cat Regatta ......- 12 votes 22 & 23 October, ACT Multihull Champs................ - 8 votes 27 & 28 November, PKSC Kembla Klassic................. - 9 votes 11 & 12 February, Koonawarra Bay 14' Cat Regatta..... - 11 votes 10 & 11 March, Wallagoot Lake Boat Club Regatta...... - 9 votes 6th May, BYRA Peter Loft Marathon (Pittwater) ......... - 6 votes There were 3 votes for a High Score system , and no votes for other options. There were 2 votes to create a B division, comprising boats that finished in the lower half of the fleet at previous regattas, and one vote for "screw that, B division is insulting". I'll update the Notice of Series and Entry forms accordingly, and keep in mind that this is an informal series, subject to change without notice. OK? tonyquoll@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Updated Entry Form: http://nswptca.papertigercatamaran.org/docs/14%27cat%20ENTRY%202011.doc Notice of Series: http://nswptca.papertigercatamaran.org/docs/14%27cat%20NOS%202011.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Hi Tony, that suggested selection is heavily biased to the south - 4 of the 6 are south of Sydney. There must be at last one recognised Sydney regatta included - and that should be KCC Top Gun - after all we're trying to get an even spread, aren't we - and to try to re-energise the Sydney scene? And the omission of Toukley is also a shame... and doesn't recognise the usually strong fleet based there... PP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 The challenge is to reduce the list to 6 events. As described above, the proposal is based on the Facebook poll. It's probably not a coincidence that the series almost matches the Paper Tiger traveller series. [ATTACH=CONFIG]327[/ATTACH] At left is the proposed series. At right the Prince Planet favoured events. I think the proposed series has an more even spread, instead of a single area focus. With 4 races to count, a Pittwater based sailor who doesn't like to travel (for example) could attend Mannering Park, Kembla, Koonawarra and BYRA. Of course 14' cat sailors are strongly encouraged to attend all of the other events listed in the poll. 6th November is Try Sailing Day, which is the perfect opportunity for all clubs to inspire new sailors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just One More Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 The feeling around PKSC is the Sail Sydney regatta 16 17 & 18 December is shaping up to be a great regatta. The last I heard is it may be moved to Kurnell at the request of the large cats. Personally I would like the move as it is a great area to sail with good breezes. We need to adopt the locations as presented by Tony for this year then I would suggest if the Sail Sydney does check out as expected then include it in the TS next year. The existing series closely mirrors the PT's, this is probably a good thing as it uses tried and proven regattas. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoSport260 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I can confirm they are working on moving it to Kurnell. My best mate is a Race Officer and on the committee with YNSW, he rang me the other week to discuss the interest from the Windrush class in being at the regatta and mentioned the proposed switch to Kurnell. I did float the idea of rather than splitting the 14's into classes running us all together on Koonawarra YS. On another line of thought, I think whilst the 6events seem south heavy for the sake of getting this off the ground i'm fine with the list of events and next year we can change a few around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Hey Tony, how is a southern-biased series more 'evenly spread'? The Facebook poll doesn't reflect the 'spirit' of the proposed series - where there was supposed to be an even 'spread' both north, south and including Sydney. As a PT sailor, maybe your enthusiastic involvement in this (which of course is welcomed) has encouraged more PT sailors to vote? I haven't anything against the proposed events - although I do see the 'late' inclusion of the ACT Multihull Championships has swayed the bias even further south... which wasn't the original goal. I don't know how, as I'm not 'mathematically' inclined, so don't 'get' the consequences for the scoring system – but surely the KCC Top Gun and Toukley events could be included, as an option to 2 of the southern events? I mean, is that too hard to do? Let me know... If they are not, I for one will be very disappointed - as Sydney definitely needs ONE premier regatta to be attended 'en mass' by a good fleet of 14's - and Toukley is likewise deserving of participation... I'm not suggesting dropping Wallagoot or ACT at all - simply allowing an option to them for those who will just not be inclined or able to attend – and a more evenly spread series geographically... BTW, R U referring to the Wallagoot Lake Try Sailing Day? If so, that is certainly good and needed, but how many do you expect will travel all that way from elsewhere within the state? Just askin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquoll Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Spread of events As shown on the above map, the events are evenly spread out, rather than concentrated in one area. It seems the series is centered on Wollongong, with two north (Mannering & Byra), two south (ACT & Wallagoot) and two local (Kembla & Koonawarra). Perhaps you'd also like a Sydney Catamaran Series, to include Palm Beach, Concorde Ryde, Kurnell, (others?). That would be a great way for local cat sailors to get to know each other. Resolving options Please refer all NSW 14' cat sailors to the Facebook page and have them vote in the poll (link provided previously). Alternative options within a series wouldn't work, as there would be a different set of competitors attending the various events. Flexibility is provided by having only 4 of the races to count towards an individual's score. Increasing to 8 regattas with 6 to count would make it less likely that people would attend (as discussed previously), and hence 6 was nominated as a good series length (in discussion previously). I'm happy to help with this series by formalising proposals and paperwork. If it appears a majority want something else, great lets do that. Swapping ACT for Kurnell may be worthwhile if there are 14' cats sailors in that area we would be supporting. Are there? I really enjoyed the Toukley Brass Monkey, despite the weather, and encourage sailing at that club. However the Paper Tigers have international titles over easter 2012 (McCrae, VIC), so a traveller series event around that date is unlikely to attract PT sailors. Sydney has the BYRA Marathon included, although I personally dont think a single race is appropriate. Full weekend regattas make the driving worthwhile. Promoting 14' Cat Sailing Try Sailing Day is the day you allow members of the public to have a ride on your boat, at your local club, for free. http://www.bia.org.au/events/Try-Sailing/index.html It is a very effective way of introducing people to sailing. Following it with access to club boats and sailing lessons highly recommended. I'll be coordinating the event at Wallagoot Lake, and inviting locals to come for a sail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 "Increasing to 8 regattas with 6 to count would make it less likely that people would attend (as discussed previously), and hence 6 was nominated as a good series length" I think this is the crux of the matter... and I tend to disagree. If it's easier for those who want to attend, but simply won't drive to the 'further' ends of the series, then isn't it realistic to say that more events would then be attended by that group of sailors - if the events were closer to them? Offering a wider group of options would surely encourage more sailors to attend - and then maybe offer 5 or 6 of the 8 to count? I'm simply attempting to make this more inclusive, instead of catering to the already 'strong' southern group... which appears to have a stronger 'lobby' group... If the Sail Sydney event can be moved to Kurnell, and Toukley included, then this would surely make a lot more sailors happier... and Tony, you're right about Byra not being a 2-day event - and that's another reason we do need a recognised Sydney regatta included. To omit one is a wasted opportunity, shows a lack of vision – and a glaring oversight... IMHO Sure we all wanna see our 'regions' included - lets just try to see the bigger picture and balance the scales a little more... Of course, your suggestion of 2 chapters - a Northern & Southern Series could work well, and maybe a central regatta could be the 'overlap' needed to bind the 2 series together - but that might diminish the overall numbers at each regatta - right? Hmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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