Matt15 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Several weeks ago a young chap died whilst competing in 18ft Skiff racing off Wynnum/Manly here in Brisbane. Apparently he was knocked unconscious by the boom, capsized with crew and tangled up in his trap harness whilst under a wing.I know there are so many "What If's" in anything you do in life, and that sailing by comparison is a very 'safe' sport and leisure activity. My question:Does anybody here carry an easy access knife or cutting tool in case something like this happens?I had never considered doing this myself until somebody mentioned that I should. Is this common practice? Who else does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt15 Posted November 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Link to incident http://brisbane18footers.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 This is another good reason to use the Bethwaite designed trap harness system - NO hooks to get tangled lines in..I'm particularly aware of this issue - as on a super sloop Windy, you only have yourself to rely on - and there are lots of lines to 'snag' you under the boat if you happen to capsize and get trapped under the sail or hulls/trampoline...I was thinking the same thing - a knife that is easily unstrapped from your arm or harness...I have one of those Gill self-rescue blades - but they're really only useful for relatively easily cut lines and straps - and wouldn't do much if you had to slice the tramp in order to get your head above water... and where can you actually stash one - and get to it without thinking if you need to?Ideally a divers knife strapped to your lower leg - but not much good for body-hiked boats...Might even come in useful for the 'predators' that - apparently - cruise in between cats at Mannering Park!The issue is more important to solo sailors of course, as you have nobody but yourself to come to the rescue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whollsee Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 pp...everyone knows that the blade clenched between the teeth is the correct place to stash a knife prior to facing-off against marine predators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madboutcats Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 My mate had an incident during a race a few years ago where a mast broke near the base and the cat instantly turtled on top of them his daughter made her own way out after a delay but he couldn't have got under to help her with his pfd on, since then I always carry a knife in the front pocket of my pfd and know I could easily cut a tramp to sort out anyone on a cat just by jumping off my cat onto their inverted tramp and cutting from end to end, dinghy's have mostly wire so a knife doesn't help much. My wife and I have the Magic Marine harness's with the pull release for the hook but I put instant faith in the knife, I believe everyone should carry a knife to be able to help others in trouble not themselves and it's even written into the ISAF class rules for F16's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whollsee Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Front pocket pfd is probably best spot unless you wear rashie on the outside of course. Perhaps small scabbard knife on ankle otherwise. On arm is too difficult to draw especially under stress. As pp also stated the bethwaite harness/system is non snag. I use it and it really is good all round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Don't know if I'd feel comfortable with a knife that close to the chest... the divers knife strapped to the lower leg sounds safer to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madboutcats Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Only needs to be a pocket knife that you can open with your gloves on, the divers knife is overkill my knife's blade is a bit over 2 inches, it also has pliers on it and there is a small lug on the side of the blade for easier grip to open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt15 Posted November 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Great ideas and stories guys. Without all the what ifs the Bethwaite system sounds good but freak incidents ie tangle ups still happen. Now I've had more thought about this ill certainly be carrying something if not for me but for others too.You need something u can access easily especially in a high stress situation. And I like the idea of keeping it in ur harness or PDF pocket as long as it is easy to access.Last night I was looking at the tools some of the guys at work carry to cut seatbelts. The cutting section is protected but limits the size of the object or rope u can cut. Open blades are out of course so I'll be looking for some type of flick knife and might even attach a safety cord to it. Flick knives are illegal to carry in public places but you could legally justify carrying it with ur sailing gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QB2 Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 A knife is good for ropes but what if you get caught under ss wire shrouds, mast diamonds or the forestay. then only a decent pair of wire cutters would get you free. (they cost $30 to $50 at Whitworths) and i think would be preferable to a knife . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymick Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 ive also heard about this incident and been consideringneed something instantly accessible but not open and sharpif capsized normally in a state of surprise/panic what everfinding and opening knife maybe difficult under those circumstanceswhen unconscious no goodtangled in stainless no goodmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt15 Posted November 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 I've been reading, googling and found the Petzl Spatha knife which is a French made s/s that I've ordered from a Brisbane climbing store. It's designed to be attached to a climbers harness, to be used single handed and cut ropes and webbing with a serrated edge. It's folding too so no issues with stabbing ones self, light and small. The ss is certainly another 'what if'. How small and easy to carry would a good set of cutters be? Some of those metal cutters are hopeless for cutting thick rope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QB2 Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 I was chasing supplies of the Bethwaite key ball trapeze system online locally yesterday and emailed NB Sailsports which then led to an email back from Julian Bethwaite advising he still has some of the key ball systems left but also said that the UK firm Allen (formerly Holt Allen) is expected to launch a new key ball system in January which is something to keep an eye out for. Anything which reduces the risk of being trapped underwater, especially if you sail solo, is welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Planet Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Actually, what's also needed is a 'panic' button - all racing boats should carry this - which can alert the rescue boat to an emergency situation.I understand this is something that a solo sailor might find inconvenient - but it is something that all sailors should consider - maybe toggled to a sailors watch...?But, do 'rescue/starter' boats carry equipment to perform the kind of rescue that's sometimes needed? Not sure.. just sayin'...Anyway, it's about time with modern GPS systems around that competitors could carry small, personalised 2-way signallers that are sent/received by the clubhouse and/or starter/rescue boats - that alert individual boats to a change in course / race abandonment etc etc... Re the Bethwaite Keyball system: Yes - I had to order online from the US to get mine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Called an EPIRB ! But probably overkill in small boats. The time it would take to bounce around the planet would probably mean it's too late so all it does is give the drowning sailor false hope. The UK maritime authorities published a large booklet some time ago (I lost the copy I downloaded). It had case studies of several disasters many of which seemed attempts at obtaining the Darwin award (http://www.darwinawards.com/). One case was a line squall that hit a large number of small boats in a pre-Olympic regatta at Weymouth one year. From memory the conclusion was that proper record keeping wasn't maintained and also there wasn't enough rescue boats to cover the disaster. I don't think there was any loss of life. One of the sailors at Budgewoi had a 'moment' last year I think it was, bit blowy but nothing excessive - he tipped over and got trapped. I've thought about how you could identify that there was a problem let alone rush to the rescue. Back in my yoof, a guy got caught under a capsized Fireball and didn't survive. I was there, there was one guy on the rescue boat - the mast was stuck in the mud. I don't think the rescue guy ever sailed again. There alcohol, big breeze and inexperience were factors Those quick release trap hooks are ok but I remember when Rodney got a new one at Toukley once - we worked out how to release it (and that was hard enough at the time, velcro holds it all together quite well) but getting back in was a nightmare so could put you off releasing while under water since it's going to take quite a few minutes to put it back together. I would think that thorough understanding of what can happen and working out what to do if it does is probably the best way but there are many that wouldn't think about it until it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 I know we're not talking about Darwin Awards but this was, well ok, funny: DARWIN AWARD: Smokin' Hot Sauce! Thinking he was drinking alcohol, Gary picked up a salsa jar and took a swig of gasoline. After spitting it up onto his clothing, he recovered from the shock by lighting a cigarette... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madboutcats Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 When racing you don't need panic button gps etc the rescue boats keep an eye on you but generally the course is that big that it wouldn't be a good outcome if you waited for a rescue boat to sort you out, case in point is the skiff incident. Dinghies are a bigger problem than cats, fortunately on a cat if you hook up on wire you would still slide to the surface, ie sidestays, forestays and diamond wires but potentially still be under the tramp. I did rescue boat for quite a few years with junior sailing IMO wire cutters on your body are impractical all you need is a small foldup knife that cuts tramp material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointed Reply Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Now talking of the Magic Marine quick release.... During a recent race, somehow the jaws of the little sister clip that holds the trap wire to the bungy, got caught in the release cord for the trap hook. As I tacked and unhooked it pulled on the release cord and the hook popped out. The sister clip was still attached to the harness.It was a real mess. I had to retack and sort out how I was attached. Fortunately the hook landed on the tramp and did not fall off. Luckily I had had a practice on refitting the hook after Jimbo inadvertantly showed us all how to do it at Toukley....it was much harder with the harness on and while on a pitching boat !! So in this instance the safety release hook system caused the incident.If I had capsized and it was windy, I might have been in trouble but I might have been able to just snap the cord. I'm not sure the supplied webbing knife would have been much good..... So what now.......make sure the little cord is tucked away, find an alternative to the sister clip, assume it was a once off and won't happen again, get rid of the hook release system, get a braithwaite ball............or just sail cat rigged from now on........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 interesting conversation. i seem to remember that when the powers that be were going to mandate auto release devices there was some thought (on sailing anarchy) that the bethwaite system wouldnt be compliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 These used to be available years ago and I recall seeing them on a rope and clip setup on sailors PFD's...I couldn't find any recent info on them...... so this is archived stuff. I'm sure a similar product would be available today..... The Big Fish Safety Knife DescriptionA larger, more robust version of the popular Fish 200 Series Safety Knife. The Big Fish is not only a heavy duty general packaging knife but also an excellent bag opener and rope or netting cutter.Available in a range of mouth size options from 6mm for general packaging and multi-layer paper or polythene bags to 9mm for ropes and netting. (This knife with a 9mm mouth cuts 12mm diameter yachting & abseiling rope). The mouth opening comes in 6, 8 and 9mm sizesThe wider opening to the mouth blade does mean that fingers can be placed near the blade. However, the risk of a stab or slashing injury is eliminated. It is almost impossible to cut yourself accidentally. http://www.myboatsgear.com/Big-Fish-Safety-knife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Posted November 23, 2013 Report Share Posted November 23, 2013 Found a bit more recent stuff on them...... http://safetyknife.net/ProductGrp/000100030001 0r http://safetyknife.net/ and click on the 'products tab', navigate from there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt15 Posted November 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2013 Pirate this bigfish safety knife is a very simular design to what many Police carry for cutting seatbeats etc. My concern was the mouth size but this one seems to come in a variety of sizes which I like. How do you think the plain edge will go cutting harder ropes like dyneema? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Posted November 24, 2013 Report Share Posted November 24, 2013 Never seen the 'Big-Fish" in 'action' other than YouTube vids, which are focused on seatbelts largely, there's a link on the safetyknife site where a seatbelt is cut bloody fast.I cant pass judgement fairly as to their performance as I've never seen the "Big-Fish" in use. however..... Dyeema ropes are generally a smaller diameter over traditional ropes, once we would of had a 12mm main sheet, now we run an 8mm dyeema instead.... with the smaller diameter there's less "material" to cut through but that's compensated by a harder material to cut through..... logic tells me if it cuts an older style 12mm sheet with ease it wont stumble with a 8mm dymeea rope...... personally..... in a desperate situation ...I'd choose a knife I can use one-handed ..... and one that's extreamly simple to use typicaly when in a situation you need to cut your way free, Murphy's Law will make it so your doing it with one hand tied behind your back, which sort of kills off the folding knife idea right from the start, the other thing to consider is your physical state..... broke wrist or arm wont help much when unfolding a knife.... if you get it out of the pouch without dropping it Panic does strange things, If your in that situation you want a knife ...... you want it NOW !!!You don't want a flash nylon pouch to un-do and a knife you have to look at to unfold the right way ...... you want to start slashing NOW !!!! Your under the boat......your right hand is tied up behind your backyour left wrist is broken a mermaid swims up and offers you a choice of a black pouch or the Big-Fish knife.... you choose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobblyoldjimbo Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 I just read through this thread: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=81976similar discussion with interesting comments. For an SA discussion the stupid comments kept to a minimum.The Gill device looks useful and is a bottle opener for the 99% of times you won't need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymick Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 i was advised about a hook knife ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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